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Post by EdoBosnar on Jan 4, 2019 4:47:03 GMT -5
(...) On the whole, i still like what deMatteis has done to this point. He is trying to bring in the classic elements that were there with Gerber: humor, metaphor, the supernatural, characterization. Perlin (and Sinnott) is supplying fine art; but, the whole thing doesn't seem to totally gel. He is fine when they are in the "real world", yet seems to struggle with the fantastic. He tries; but, it lacks that spark that makes it come alive. De Matteis is interested in exploring the supernatural, as Dr Strange was the reason he wanted to do the series. Perlin seems more at home with stuff from DAK's run, or some of Ed Hannigan's. (...) Issue #100 was about where I checked out with Defenders; I had been reading it on and off for several years, but I think I picked up one more issue after this one and dropped it. (Later, I picked up the X-menified Defenders just out of curiosity, and again lost interest after about 2 issues.) DeMatteis just wasn't doing it for me as a writer - I also wasn't too fond of his stories in Marvel Team-up at about the same time. Otherwise, the summer before this, I had read the bulk of Gerber's run on Defenders - loaned to me by my (then) future brother-in-law - and thoroughly enjoyed it, so the then current stuff just didn't compare.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jan 4, 2019 13:29:55 GMT -5
By this point, I had pulled back from a lot of superhero comics, apart from X-Men and a few others. My Marvel output shrunk way down, with the odd mini-series, off and on during Shooter's Avengers run (the slap up through the trial of Hank, with Egghead involved). I came to Miller's Daredevil way late, after Janson was doing the art, following Elektra's death (Black Widow in the new suit and short haircut). The only Defenders I read of DeMatteis, was one or two of the Six-Fingered Hand stories, the Nighthawk story coming up, down the road, and the Squadron Supreme Story, also down the road.
I probably picked up more of Marvel's Baxter reprints than regular books, especially when they reprinted Golden's Micronauts work and Adams' X-Men. Everything else was mostly random, like Contest of Champions, the Hawkeye mini, Wolverine and the Black Widow issues of Marvel Fanfare.
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Post by berkley on Jan 5, 2019 22:08:16 GMT -5
Much the same here: I had stopped following the series before de Matteiss came on board. I remember de Matteiss as a first-rate letters page contributor on marvel books like KoKF and Doctor Strange but what little I've seen of his comics writing hasn't grabbed me. However, as I was saying in the Frank Miller Daredevil thread, some of this late-70s-80s stuff that didn't attract me at the time is starting to feel to me like it's worth a look simply because what came afterwards was so much worse. So I might well give the De Matteiss Defenders a try one of these days.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jan 5, 2019 22:52:16 GMT -5
Much the same here: I had stopped following the series before de Matteiss came on board. I remember de Matteiss as a first-rate letters page contributor on marvel books like KoKF and Doctor Strange but what little I've seen of his comics writing hasn't grabbed me. However, as I was saying in the Frank Miller Daredevil thread, some of this late-70s-80s stuff that didn't attract me at the time is starting to feel to me like it's worth a look simply because what came afterwards was so much worse. So I might well give the De Matteiss Defenders a try one of these days. DeMatteis had a good run on Captain America, which i quite enjoyed. He's pretty green here. I'm not certain Al Milgrom was the best editorial mentor for him, compared to a Weezy Simonson or Archie Goodwin. He had a few stories in DC's horror books, before coming to Marvel, where he did fill ins, until this series; so, this was his first regular gig. I haven't read it in a while, but I remember really liking the Squadron Supreme story, which is coming up. Maybe it took him some time to get the lesser stuff out of his system. Lots of writers have talked about you have to write lots of material, to get the bad stuff out and really hone your skills. I do think his Six-Fingered Hand storyline needed moodier art, which was harder to come by, at Marvel, unless you were on a star book. Again, I recall Perlin's art on the Squadron Supreme story to be more effective. We'll have to see, when I reach those issues (probably haven't read them in 20 years). |
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Post by EdoBosnar on Jan 6, 2019 4:34:53 GMT -5
Didn't mean to make it sound like I wasn't fond of DeMatteis as a writer across the board. And I liked his run on Captain America, too.
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Post by badwolf on Jan 6, 2019 11:02:10 GMT -5
I think there is definitely improvement as he goes on, and really shines in creator-owned stuff like Moonshadow or his Vertigo work. I'm also thinking maybe an ensemble cast was not his forte.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jan 6, 2019 14:15:43 GMT -5
codystarbuck, nice thread. I read the whole thing in the last 2 days and I have the following comments about my thoughts to the series: 1. I read the Defenders title off the stands from Marvel Feature #1 until after the Avengers/Defenders war. I didn't really like the non team style. 2. I started buying it again for the 6th finger hand saga that ended in #100. It didn't really grab me because I'm not a magic fan. There's not many ways to define magic and it always becomes a Deux a Machina ending. 3. I kept buying it during the period where they became like a X-men revival until the end.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jan 9, 2019 17:26:21 GMT -5
Defenders #101 Apparently, the Defenders are going on Carousel.... I'm not sure about the foreground; but, the background characters look like they are reacting to Devil-Slayer's love for chili! Creative Team: DeMatteis, Perlin & Sinnott; Shelly Leferman-letters, George Roussos-colors, Al Milgrom-edits, Jim Shooter-dictates Synopsis: The Defenders are back home and most are sitting around moping. Hulk wonders why everyone's so sad, since they won.  Patsy gets all up in his face about how they sacrificed Daimon to beat Satan and Hulk shoves her down. Bad touch, Hulk! He storms off, basically calling the gang losers. Namor agrees and then buggers off. The still-paralyzed Kyle leaves before he puts a gun to his head. Silver Surfer, the Cosmic Crybaby, tries to cheer everyone up and Isaac joins in. He suggests that Val and Patsy go see Patsy's housekeeper, Dolly, in the hospital. They agree, if Isaac comes along, despite being the one who put her there. yeah, that will go well. They depart and then Surfer decides Doc and Clea need a pick me up and takes them to shoot the curls...  Devil-Slayer, Eric, goes for a walk, in the rainy city. He momentarily forgets to use his cover spell, that makes people see ordinary clothes, instead of his blue and orange costume; but, puts it up when someone first notices. he comes across a hippy remnant, singing on a stoop, for money. The guy is able to see the costume and asks Eric where he got the "opera cape." Eric thinks he is a demon and chases him, while the y guy begs him not to hurt him, saying "No more pain!" Patsy, Val and Isaac ride the buss to montclair, while some kid asks Isaac why he is dressed like ben grimm and makes spy jokes. At the hospital, they find Dolly reading to a ward of children. One of them pulls away the scarf hiding Isaac's face and, to his surprise, thinks he looks pretty cool. Patsy sits down, feeling sad about Daimon, who saved Dolly's life, when a young girl, suffering from cancer, asks if she can sit on her lap. She tells Patsy that there is magic in the world and it will protect you, if you treat people nice. Patsy is touched by her selfless words and hugs the youngster. Surfer takes Doc and Clea to a remote village in Africa, where he found people who accepted him without question. They share in their hospitality and fellowship and Doc is moved by how they seem to be in harmony with the world and He takes Clea to the sky and they dance in the air, to the delight of the villagers and Surfer. Eric comes home with the hippy, Sunshine (Ira Gross) and sees the sty that is his apartment. sunshine offers eric has, LSD or heroin and Eric loses it, berating Sunshine for destroying his mind with drugs. That was how he could see past Eric's camouflage spell. Sunshine retorts that it is all he has left, after his "old lady" left him and his friends turned into squares and grew up and got jobs. Eric stops and thanks Sunshine for helping him to see that he has defined himself by his mission, rather than his person and goes off to change that, promising he will return to help Sunshine.  Eric returns to the Sanctum, at 5:00 am, and finds the others sitting outside, smiling, waiting for the sun to come up. He joins them. Thoughts: This is the JM DeMatteis who would write things like Moonshadow. He is now past trying to write a second-rate horror story and is instead focusing on people, dealing with real life and emotions, even if they do so in slightly more spectacular ways. He is greatly aide by perlin & Sinnott, who are far more adept at the mundane. They capture the emotions of the various moments, without bowling you over with style. the art is in service to the mood and story. The conversation between Patsy and the little girl, who is bald from chemo-therapy, is quite moving and brought tears to my eyes. The moment in Africa is a bit off, thanks to a bit of stereotype, though it tries harder than most. the villagers are at least in more realistic clothes, rather than loincloths and wraps. However, the village is shown to be kraals and the people seem unaware of the outside world. It was true that some remoter villages were still devoid of many modern comforts, most had some contact with technology, in some format. This is 1981, not 1921. It could have been far worse; but, it could have been better. Surfer presents visions of other parts of the world, which shows a Buddhist in prayer and a turbaned man playing a flute, while his cattle graze. both are shown in stereotyped clothing. It also demonstrates the common misunderstanding of Buddhism, as the man appears to be worshipping the statue of Buddha. The Buddha is not a deity in Buddhist teachings; but, the teacher of great truths and a guide to finding those truths, through meditation and contemplation. As such, it has melded with other beliefs in various Asian cultures, adding to their existing religious traditions, without contradicting them. For instance, in Japan, Shinto beliefs mostly revolve around life and living things. Buddhism brought ideas beyond life which added the element missing from Shinto. It's a point that gets lost in these kinds of scenes. This is a fine recovery from the rather disappointing Six-Fingered Hand storyline and points more toward the strengths of the creative team.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jan 9, 2019 18:06:08 GMT -5
Defenders #102 Creative Team: the usual team is joined by Sal Trapani and Jack Abel, on inks. I smell Deadline Doom! Synopsis: Dr Strange is away, meating the Micronauts, and Clea is busy giving Kyle is mystical healing treatments, with help from Isaac...  Clea is going to analyze things, which doc hasn't had the time to do, to see how the mystical bond that saved Kyle's life became severed. the treatments are designed to slowly restore it. Kyle and his nurse leave and Clea remarks about how Kyle has matured. Isaac just nods and heads off to his room, to stare sadly in the mirror.  Kyle goes off to visit a private sanitarium, where Mindy Williams, a woman crippled in an accident, caused by a drunken Kyle, in college, is being treated. We get a recap of Marvel Team-Up #101, where Mindy had taken the payoff money from Kyle's dad and used it for an improbable revenge scheme (involving robot Mindy's and 60s protesters). Mindy is prone to fits of anger and peace, all revolving around Kyle. He sees her and gets a rection he didn't expect...  He then gets a psychic shove across the room. the docs come in and shoo her away and Kyle knows something is hinky. At night, he suits up and returns to snoop, finding an army of armed staff, trying to stop him. he takes them down and finds Dr Masters, who shows him the truth. the whole thing is a front for a government operation to exploit telepaths, with Mindy as the prize weapon. her episodes were responsible for severing Kyle's mystical bond and now she sicks psychic rats on him.  Kyle fights and Mindy is hit by a vision of her romantic painting, come to life. She see what she is doing to Kyle and explodes with psychic feedback, taking out most of the spooks. Kyle leaves with her and threatens to expose everything; but, next sees the story buried under a cover story of a fire. Thoughts: Not quite as effective, though it shows Kyle gaining some further maturity and taps into things like Stephen King's Firestarter (published in 1980) and actual CIA research into ESP and telepathy. The whole thing reads a bit like a trip back to the early 70s, with evil CIA shenanigans and Nixon paranoia. It looks pretty crappy, too, with three inkers not aiding Perlin. I remember buying this issue, largely on the strength of the cover, since it focused on nighthawk; but, was rather disappointed by the story. Nothing much has changed. Next issue starts a new storyline; so, hopefully, we will get some more interesting stuff. It's kind of hard to tell, at the end of the story, if Kyle is cured or not, since it still appears to be night, at the end, when we see him walking around.
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Post by badwolf on Jan 9, 2019 20:07:36 GMT -5
Defenders #101I'm not sure about the foreground; but, the background characters look like they are reacting to Devil-Slayer's love for chili! "This last time Hulk share beans with cape-man!"
The cover to this issue is amusing to me because it came right at the end of my subscription to the title.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jan 17, 2019 15:13:35 GMT -5
Defenders #103 I notice that several of Al Milgrom's covers have the team facing and heading in different directions. They have a tendency to look a bit disjointed. Creative Team: JM DeMatteis-writer, Perlin & Sinnott-art, Jim Novak-letters, George Roussos-colors, Al Milgrom-edits Synopsis: Isaac is a-walkin in the rain.... Some muggers try to roll him and quickly wished they had left well enough alone...  The muggers run off and then Clea and devil-Slayer show up. Clea magics the muggers to a police station, then she and Eric persuade Isaac to come back and that they had been worried about him. Isaac hugs Clea for her kindness, shedding a light in his dark world. Meanwhile, Patsy and Val check out the ruins of her old house and find her shadow cloak. She inadvertently releases the child trapped in it, who runs crying to momma.  Patsy folds up the cloak and makes it disappear...  Patsy and Val then get a psychic message from Clea and head back. Kyle also gets the message; but, he is in a judge's chambers, facing a review of his case. he begs off and then the judge dismisses the corruption case and finds that Kyle was just negligent and orders him to pay the back taxes owed. Kyle's legal team includes Matt Murdock; but, outside the judge's chambers, he runs into masters, the CIB guy, from last issue. he claims that he was responsible for getting Kyle off. Clea assembles the team and Isaac recounts how he sold his soul to Satan to revitalize his hometown of Christiansboro. The team then heads there to try to put an end to Isaac's curse. Just after they leave, Beast shows up at the Sanctum and is let in by Wong. Back in Christiansboro, the team arrives, only to find it deserted. Isaac tears off to check things out and the rest decide to do a recon. Patsy finds a guy, called Simple Joe, who says the town was haunted by ghosts, after the Six-Fingered Hand were gone, and everyone else fled the city. he had no place to go and stayed. meanwhile, Patsy & Val find a cat, which attacks Val and Isaac runs into what seems to be the ghost of his dead brother. he goes inside his family home and a portrait of his mother comes to life and tells of his days after WW1, when he travelled to India and got involved in the occult. Eric finds a little girl in a cemetery and comforts her and the team regathers. then, all of their new friends turn demonic and we are presented with the haunting force, Null, the Living Darkness. It explains its origin...   It unleashes despair upon the town and the dead attack the defenders. At the family house, Isaac is driven to attempt suicide, but he cannot die by hanging. he flies off in anger and see Null and snaps. he blasts the ghosts and Null with his energy bolts and is able to dispel it. His family then appears to him, saying they were there to help save him from his despair and help him embrace his destiny, for a brighter future. Isaac realizes that his real curse has been lifted, even as he is stuck in his demonic form, as Gargoyle. he now has a purpose. Thoughts: Not bad, if a bit cliched. riters love playing out internal struggles in an external method; but, it doesn't always work. The Marvel house style that Perlin & Sinnott employ here is a bit uneven; it works better in some scenes than other. They do pay a bit of tribute to Will Eisner on the splash page, as credits appear as paper floating in the rain (though they didn't do any logo or title architecture). Kyle's ridiculous legal case is finally put to bed, well after it should have been wrapped up. There is a lot of sloppy legal trappings in that storyline and the ending is just as sloppy. the judge rules in chambers, not in court. I'm not an expert; but, it would seem that even a purely judicial review would still have the official decision made in court, not in chambers; but, maybe not. Either way, this was dragged out far longer than should have been, which points to poor editing on the part of Milgrom, in my book. Part of an editors job is to keep the writer focused and dragging this subplot on, for this long, with few real consequences, is not keeping the writer focused. Legal proceedings in comics have generally been pretty bad; but, this was especially so. DeMatteis also got rid of Patsy's shadow cloak, though in a rather underwhelming manner. The set up, with the kid disappearing, suggested bigger things; but, no, the kid pops out and Patsy folds the cape in on itself and "poof!" Talk about deus ex machina! This all has the feeling of resetting the players for the next extended storyline, which probably involves Beast, since he turned up out of the blue. To me, this looks like we are seeing a typical illustration of Jim Shooter's storytelling dictates, with the same formula repeated ad nauseum. Page layouts are bland grids and storytelling beats are predictable. Good stories are still told; but, there isa sameness to things. Hopefully, DeMatteis has a livelier plot in mind, to give this some excitement. The character stuff isn't bad; but, they aren't given much to do, right now.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jan 17, 2019 15:54:10 GMT -5
Defenders #104 Another Milgrom cover. Apparently, Hank McCoy has been possessed by the spirit of Kurt Thomas...  GYMKATA!!!!!!!! Creative Team: Diana Albers does the letters, the rest are the same. Synopsis: Our story opens with Devil-Slayer visiting the hippy, Sunshine. he has been healing his mind; but, Sunshine needs to physically detox from heroin and is afraid. Eric is about to leave him when Sunshine begs him to help, which is what eric has waited for, as it had to be Sunshine's choice. Just then, there is a knock on the door and a delivery demon (Infernal Express, no doubt) hands Eric an envelope, with pictures of his estranged wife, Cory, bound and gagged, and a note giving him instructions. We then get a rerun of his past and time as a hit man, where he accidentally killed the family of a reporter, who he believes (somehow) mastered occult arts and now holds Cory. Mind explaining that one, Sherlock? We cut to Hell, where Daimon is trying to win his father's "love"...  Then we cut to Beast talking to Dr Strange, in the Sanctum, some weeks after he initially came there (why the passage of time, I don't know...) They are interrupted by Sunshine, who aks for their help, for Eric, and hands over a letter. Doc has Wong help Sunshine, who is going through withdrawl, while he and Beast summon Wonder Man and head out to help Eric. We cut to a warehouse, where the reporter, Ian Fate (riiiiiggghhttt............) has Cory tied up, floating in the air, with daggers aimed at her...  He recounts how he studied the occult and then starts killing Cory. Eric pulls a mace & chain out of his shadow cloak and starts whailing on demons, only to find out it is an illusion and Cory is being held in another dimension, by demons. Doc, Hank and Wonder man show up to aid Eric in travelling to the dimension to free Cory.  In an interlude, we see the rest of the team celebrating Kyle's legal victory, just as the CIB shows up and gasses them, taking everyone but Matt Murdock and Kyle's nurse& lawyer. So, that explains why they don't turn up with Doc and the two Avengers. The guys end up in the dimensional realm, where things are haywire. Fate is there and sics demons on the team and much fighting abounds, while Cory is trapped under a dome. Doc owns the lesser magician and traps him. Eric frees Cory, only for her to get shivved, while he grapples with demons. As she dies, she transforms into Sunshine and Fate explains he made a substitution, as he couldn't take an innocent life (Sunshine was innocent, even if he was a drug addict). Eric grieves for his dead friend and is about to shank Fate, when Wonder Man stops him, telling him that the events are his fault, as he killed Fate's wife and child. Eric buggers off in guilt and we see that Ian Fate is totally gaga, as the story comes to a weird end. Thoughts: I never really expected Sunshine to make it and the switch is less than shocking. However, the whole thing is rather cliched, with the kidnapping, note to the hero, and fight on enemy ground. The actual photo of Cory looks swiped from the O'Neil/Adams Ra's al Ghul story, in Batman. Again, the house style gives this all a rather generic look and the demons look like something from a cheap plastic exorcist toy set. About the only thing that really stands out artistically is at the start, where Eric and Sunshine argue, in his flophouse. Perlin is definitely better at more realistic stuff, though even some of those scenes are rather dull and clumsy. Heck, even Dr Wertham would have given Perlin a pass for his bondage photo of Cory. Howard Chaykin he ain't! To be fair, this isn't a superstar book; it's an average series, with average stories and average art. It won't win awards; but, it provides momentary entertainment, fo 60 cents (inflation was really catching up with comics, at this time, as they shot from 30 cents to 60, in just a few years).
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Post by codystarbuck on Jan 17, 2019 17:30:06 GMT -5
Defenders #105 Better cover from Milgrom, though the coloring on the fire needs some work. Creative Team: Shelly Lefferman does the letters, everyone else is back. Synopsis: We learn that Beast is at the Sanctum to seek help in reviving his girlfriend Vera (from Avengers #209), who was poisoned by Skrulls and a quest for an Immortality Stone ended with the thing shattered. reed Richards has been trying to find a scientific way to revive her and Doc is probing the stone shards; but, says it is evil and can't help. Hank gets a bit excited and Reed restrains him.  Meanwhile, back in Hell, Daimon is having father issues. He has to kill a baby to prove his worth to daddy...  he can't do it and the baby turns into a lesser demon, which Old Scratch blasts, then berates his son, telling him he must choose. Back on Earth, Doc, Reed and Hank travel inside the remains of the Immortality Stone and are attacked by crystalline monsters.  In Hell, Satan has a crucifix of demons formed, to stuck Daimon on; but, he rebels. Back in the crystal, a female manifestation of the crystal's consciousness yaks at the team and freezes them. back in Hell, Daimon's pop says he chose wisely and reveals the part he plays in Creation and reveals his true face to Daimon (off panel) and sends him on his way.  He turns up in the Sanctum, sees the reconfigured stone, smashes it, releasing the guys, then uses his powers to heal Vera, making Hank very happy.  it turns out that it is Christmas morning. Thoughts: Well, Jim Shooter decreed that there is no Heaven in the Marvel Universe; but, JMD undercuts that by using Satan as an instrument of Creation. In Judeo-Christian lore, Lucifer is a fallen angel, cast down into Hell by God. However, God created the universe, including his angels; so, he created Lucifer to rebel and fulfill his role as the adversary (the meaning of Satan, in Hebrew). JMD is basically saying that satan is an instrument of God, in the Judeo-Christian tradition. These ideas have been fodder for fiction for generations, whether it is Dante, Milton or Neil Gaiman, with his Heavenly murder mystery. It's not bad, though the crystal world stuff is rather dull. I think this would have been more effective had the sole focus been on Daimon. It would have also have helped to have a better artist to depict hell and the demons. JMD also presents the idea that Satan is Mephisto, Satannish and Thog; that they are just other forms of the same being. Marvel retcons this, with mephisto being the true Satan and Satan actually being the babylonian Marduk; and, later, Satannish is Daimon's father and Dormammu his grandfather. However, JMD also ends by calling Satan the Lord of Lies; so, he has an out of Satan being an unreliable narrator. The Christmas ending comes out of nowhere, on the last page and almost seems like a last minute editorial insertion, though there is a sort of thematic connection. This doesn't really accomplish much, other than return Daimon from Hell and have him available for future stories. the Beast story proved to be minor; so, we are still waiting for something bigger. The end blurb says Nighthawk, Val and Patsy's story will pick up in Captain America #268, before coming back to the next Defenders issue.
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Post by badwolf on Jan 17, 2019 18:15:43 GMT -5
Defenders #104We then get a rerun of his past and time as a hit man, where he accidentally killed the family of a reporter, who he believes (somehow) mastered occult arts and now holds Cory. Mind explaining that one, Sherlock? Heh, that is pretty hand-wavy isn't it? I suspect Fate made a deal with a lesser demon, much like Ozzie or Isaac did in the Hand saga.
Wonder Man's line at the end, which I still remember without looking at the comic (I don't have it any more) - "If 'Sunshine' is dead, if Fate is insane, it's your fault!*" - struck me as really dark as a kid. I liked this issue a lot, actually. Very downbeat.
*I think this last bit was done in Diana Albers' signature disjointed lettering, too.
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Post by badwolf on Jan 17, 2019 18:23:15 GMT -5
Defenders #105 I was happy to see closure to the Resurrection Stone story, though I believe J.M. wrote both stories so maybe it was planned all along. Still, Vera could have been easily consigned to loose-end limbo, never seen again.
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