|
|
Post by MDG on Aug 10, 2023 10:30:22 GMT -5
Found this on a DC Comics facebook group  Someone--I'm pretty sure it was Scott Shaw--did a drawing with all of these things, but damned if I can find it. |
|
|
|
Post by Rob Allen on Aug 10, 2023 13:18:02 GMT -5
Someone--I'm pretty sure it was Scott Shaw--did a drawing with all of these things, but damned if I can find it. You might be thinking of this image - it doesn't have all the things on Carmine's list, but it does have a lot of popular cover motifs.  |
|
|
|
Post by Farrar on Aug 10, 2023 14:15:03 GMT -5
Someone--I'm pretty sure it was Scott Shaw--did a drawing with all of these things, but damned if I can find it.
Secret Origins #40 (1989)'s editor Mark Waid used Carmine's Checklist  as the guiding force behind this cover.  The finished cover is by Bill Wray. And in this issue's letter column, Waid explains the cover's "secret origin":  |
|
|
|
Post by Icctrombone on Aug 23, 2023 8:23:31 GMT -5
I was always under the impression that Frank Miller owned the Ronin property outright after publishing it for Dc. but...
More importantly, the Ronin deal was significantly different than the ones for author-owned titles at Epic. Creators at Epic retained far more rights. The late Dick Giordano was at the time DC’s executive editor, which was roughly the equivalent of Shooter’s editor-in-chief position. In 1987, he publicly discussed the specifics of the Ronin contract (TCJ 119, p. 84). Judging from his statements, it wasn’t, like at Epic, a fixed-term agreement. It wasn’t even a conditional-perpetuity agreement. There is no reversion clause in the Ronin contract, although Miller may have been offered one retroactively. (Giordano believed Miller chose not to sign it.) Miller technically owns the copyright, but that’s it. As Giordano said, “No, the copyright [for Ronin] doesn’t mean anything […] it’s 100% cosmetic.” DC has the rights to Ronin in perpetuity. The company is even able to employ other creators to produce spin-off comics if Miller isn’t interested. At Epic, the creators were free to take the property elsewhere after the publishing term expired. (The one for Dreadstar was at most four years.) The contracts also did not allow Epic to do Before Watchmen-type projects over those creators’ objections. For all practical purposes, DC Comics owns Ronin. Miller's copyright is just a fig leaf. With Starlin and the other creators of author-copyrighted material at Epic, their ownership was the real thing.
They did a Watchmen type screw job to Frank Miller.
|
|
|
|
Post by codystarbuck on Aug 23, 2023 10:33:31 GMT -5
I was always under the impression that Frank Miller owned the Ronin property outright after publishing it for Dc. but... More importantly, the Ronin deal was significantly different than the ones for author-owned titles at Epic. Creators at Epic retained far more rights. The late Dick Giordano was at the time DC’s executive editor, which was roughly the equivalent of Shooter’s editor-in-chief position. In 1987, he publicly discussed the specifics of the Ronin contract (TCJ 119, p. 84). Judging from his statements, it wasn’t, like at Epic, a fixed-term agreement. It wasn’t even a conditional-perpetuity agreement. There is no reversion clause in the Ronin contract, although Miller may have been offered one retroactively. (Giordano believed Miller chose not to sign it.) Miller technically owns the copyright, but that’s it. As Giordano said, “No, the copyright [for Ronin] doesn’t mean anything […] it’s 100% cosmetic.” DC has the rights to Ronin in perpetuity. The company is even able to employ other creators to produce spin-off comics if Miller isn’t interested. At Epic, the creators were free to take the property elsewhere after the publishing term expired. (The one for Dreadstar was at most four years.) The contracts also did not allow Epic to do Before Watchmen-type projects over those creators’ objections. For all practical purposes, DC Comics owns Ronin. Miller's copyright is just a fig leaf. With Starlin and the other creators of author-copyrighted material at Epic, their ownership was the real thing.
They did a Watchmen type screw job to Frank Miller. As Jim Starlin described it, Epic had first right of refusal; so, it was a bit more complicated than just the term of the contract. First Comics had long publication rights, which is why it took a while for some of those properties to revert back to the creators (plus the bankruptcy wrinkle, since under bankruptcy laws, they were considered company asset and that trumped the civil law contracts between the creators and First). Eclipse had straight ownership, in most cases, apart from comics they initiated, and a co-ownership of Miracleman, which turned out to be a false assumption, since Dez Skinn never had the rights to Marvelman, to start with. Thanks to Warner (and past practices at DC), DC was very reluctant to allow creator ownership in anything they published. I think I recall that Sovereign Seven was the first comic published under the main DC line that was creator-owned. Vertigo published some creator-owned material, as did Helix, Piranha Press and Paradox Press. When it came to the main line, DC stood by their long standing shady practices. Epic was hardly a bastion of creator rights, no matter how much Archie Goodwin tried to make it creator friendly. Marvel pushed the Marvel-owned material far more than creator-owned series and their terms weren't as good as several indie publishers; they just had better exposure with distributors and comic shops (though lots of shops never touched the Epic titles, or barely ordered them, since Marvel didn't put much marketing behind them). Comics have rarely provided contracts that are even close to the rights under book publishing and those terms still massively favor the publisher. That is part of why Dave Sim was so adamant in self-publishing being the way to control your material, both financially and editorially. Problem is, aside from himself and Jeff Smith, not many of the self-publishers were able to earn a living with their work and had to give up self-publishing because of the initial costs or because they couldn't get an audience large enough without backing. Crwodfunding has altered that dynamic, a bit, but you still have to get the funding and there are plenty of projects that didn't reach their goal. |
|
|
|
Post by Icctrombone on Aug 23, 2023 10:40:06 GMT -5
I was always under the impression that Frank Miller owned the Ronin property outright after publishing it for Dc. but... More importantly, the Ronin deal was significantly different than the ones for author-owned titles at Epic. Creators at Epic retained far more rights. The late Dick Giordano was at the time DC’s executive editor, which was roughly the equivalent of Shooter’s editor-in-chief position. In 1987, he publicly discussed the specifics of the Ronin contract (TCJ 119, p. 84). Judging from his statements, it wasn’t, like at Epic, a fixed-term agreement. It wasn’t even a conditional-perpetuity agreement. There is no reversion clause in the Ronin contract, although Miller may have been offered one retroactively. (Giordano believed Miller chose not to sign it.) Miller technically owns the copyright, but that’s it. As Giordano said, “No, the copyright [for Ronin] doesn’t mean anything […] it’s 100% cosmetic.” DC has the rights to Ronin in perpetuity. The company is even able to employ other creators to produce spin-off comics if Miller isn’t interested. At Epic, the creators were free to take the property elsewhere after the publishing term expired. (The one for Dreadstar was at most four years.) The contracts also did not allow Epic to do Before Watchmen-type projects over those creators’ objections. For all practical purposes, DC Comics owns Ronin. Miller's copyright is just a fig leaf. With Starlin and the other creators of author-copyrighted material at Epic, their ownership was the real thing.
They did a Watchmen type screw job to Frank Miller. As Jim Starlin described it, Epic had first right of refusal; so, it was a bit more complicated than just the term of the contract. First Comics had long publication rights, which is why it took a while for some of those properties to revert back to the creators (plus the bankruptcy wrinkle, since under bankruptcy laws, they were considered company asset and that trumped the civil law contracts between the creators and First). Eclipse had straight ownership, in most cases, apart from comics they initiated, and a co-ownership of Miracleman, which turned out to be a false assumption, since Dez Skinn never had the rights to Marvelman, to start with. Thanks to Warner (and past practices at DC), DC was very reluctant to allow creator ownership in anything they published. I think I recall that Sovereign Seven was the first comic published under the main DC line that was creator-owned. Vertigo published some creator-owned material, as did Helix, Piranha Press and Paradox Press. When it came to the main line, DC stood by their long standing shady practices. Epic was hardly a bastion of creator rights, no matter how much Archie Goodwin tried to make it creator friendly. Marvel pushed the Marvel-owned material far more than creator-owned series and their terms weren't as good as several indie publishers; they just had better exposure with distributors and comic shops (though lots of shops never touched the Epic titles, or barely ordered them, since Marvel didn't put much marketing behind them).Comics have rarely provided contracts that are even close to the rights under book publishing and those terms still massively favor the publisher. That is part of why Dave Sim was so adamant in self-publishing being the way to control your material, both financially and editorially. Problem is, aside from himself and Jeff Smith, not many of the self-publishers were able to earn a living with their work and had to give up self-publishing because of the initial costs or because they couldn't get an audience large enough without backing. Crwodfunding has altered that dynamic, a bit, but you still have to get the funding and there are plenty of projects that didn't reach their goal. I don't understand your response. Nothing you wrote contradicted what I wrote. The point was that under Epic, you retained the property. Starlin took his IP to First comics and then to other publishers and is now doing it as a Kickstarter. Miller was originally going to do Ronin in the Epic imprint but was swayed by big bonus Money. Now he has zip from the experience. |
|
|
|
Post by codystarbuck on Aug 23, 2023 11:10:14 GMT -5
As Jim Starlin described it, Epic had first right of refusal; so, it was a bit more complicated than just the term of the contract. First Comics had long publication rights, which is why it took a while for some of those properties to revert back to the creators (plus the bankruptcy wrinkle, since under bankruptcy laws, they were considered company asset and that trumped the civil law contracts between the creators and First). Eclipse had straight ownership, in most cases, apart from comics they initiated, and a co-ownership of Miracleman, which turned out to be a false assumption, since Dez Skinn never had the rights to Marvelman, to start with. Thanks to Warner (and past practices at DC), DC was very reluctant to allow creator ownership in anything they published. I think I recall that Sovereign Seven was the first comic published under the main DC line that was creator-owned. Vertigo published some creator-owned material, as did Helix, Piranha Press and Paradox Press. When it came to the main line, DC stood by their long standing shady practices. Epic was hardly a bastion of creator rights, no matter how much Archie Goodwin tried to make it creator friendly. Marvel pushed the Marvel-owned material far more than creator-owned series and their terms weren't as good as several indie publishers; they just had better exposure with distributors and comic shops (though lots of shops never touched the Epic titles, or barely ordered them, since Marvel didn't put much marketing behind them).Comics have rarely provided contracts that are even close to the rights under book publishing and those terms still massively favor the publisher. That is part of why Dave Sim was so adamant in self-publishing being the way to control your material, both financially and editorially. Problem is, aside from himself and Jeff Smith, not many of the self-publishers were able to earn a living with their work and had to give up self-publishing because of the initial costs or because they couldn't get an audience large enough without backing. Crwodfunding has altered that dynamic, a bit, but you still have to get the funding and there are plenty of projects that didn't reach their goal. I don't understand your response. Nothing you wrote contradicted what I wrote. The point was that under Epic, you retained the property. Starlin took his IP to First comics and then to other publishers and is now doing it as a Kickstarter. Miller was originally going to do Ronin in the Epic imprint but was swayed by big bonus Money. Now he has zip from the experience. Just expanding on the terms of these things to demonstrate that an Epic deal wasn't necessarily more advantageous to creators. Yes, you retained ownership, but it wasn't necessarily as good a deal as it appeared on the surface and you weren't just free to take your ball and go home. There were provisions that had to be met, first. Starlin described his time with it and mentioned that even if Epic wasn't publishing the series any longer, they still held first right to do anything new with it, until the contract had expired. Epic passed on doing The Price, so he did it at Eclipse; but, they had to refuse it first, before he could take it there. Miller didn't get zip, though. He was paid quite handsomely to do it and got pretty big royalties, on top of it. In the short term, he got a better deal than he could with Epic. In the long term, it doesn't look so good; but, that begs the question, would there still be an audience for it? Maybe, maybe not. Many creators weighed the steady income of royalties, under a big publisher, against carrying more potential loss through ownership and decided to stick with the safer option. At the same time, Frank was an adult and capable of having a lawyer look over the contract and understand its terms. Ronin isn't the same deal as Watchmen. That specifically stated that all rights reverted to Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons, once DC let it lapse. DC reneged on the deal by not letting it go out of print and DC also had sequel rights. So, they stuck it to Moore. Ronin has been out of print, but it doesn't revert to Miller. Same effect, but different set of circumstances. Moore & Gibbons were screwed due to shenanigans that exploited a loophole, while Miller signed a contract that merely shared copyright with him. In both cases, they are adults who could have demanded better and clearer terms.....might not of got them, but they chose the deal. Sure, the publishers hold all the cards; but, even then there were alternatives. They just chose the easier route and got a bad deal. That's on them. The publishers are snakes; but, Moore and Miller had been around long enough to know that, know the power of the direct market and its alternatives and have a cache within the industry to seek a better deal. They chose not to because of various reasons, including a wad of money up front. If you want really nasty deals and screwjobs, read the history of Colleen Doran's battles with both WaRP Graphics and Donning/Starblaze, over A Distant Soil. DC ends up looking like Tundra or Image, by comparison. |
|
|
|
Post by Icctrombone on Aug 23, 2023 11:47:45 GMT -5
All the Creators DID take their properties home to use it elsewhere. Miller chose to get the big money up front, that was his choice. The freedom he has with Sin City, he doesn't have with Ronin. For sure Epic was the better deal. I'm glad it's 40 years later and creators have better options than the big 2.
|
|
|
|
Post by MWGallaher on Sept 3, 2023 8:58:38 GMT -5
I found this column announcing the winner of a contest interesting, in that the columnist goes into some philosophy of a good cover tease, editorial considerations that the average romance reader and contest entrant probably wouldn't think about:  (This appeared in YOUNG LOVE #107, since LOVE STORIES (formerly HEART THROBS) had been canceled just two months prior.) |
|
|
|
Post by MWGallaher on Sept 8, 2023 6:19:42 GMT -5
This has got to be one of the gaudiest Golden Age costumes I've ever found:  |
|
|
|
Post by Icctrombone on Sept 8, 2023 7:00:45 GMT -5
Yes it is. Someone owes me money for my optometrist bill.
|
|
|
|
Post by kirby101 on Sept 8, 2023 8:07:15 GMT -5
Chest pouches. Early Leifeld?  |
|
|
|
Post by foxley on Sept 8, 2023 8:26:14 GMT -5
Chest pouches. Early Leifeld? No. He has feet. |
|
|
|
Post by MDG on Sept 8, 2023 9:19:24 GMT -5
This has got to be one of the gaudiest Golden Age costumes I've ever found: I don't mind it, but i question the white. Must be hell to keep clean when battling through a war zone. |
|
|
|
Post by Slam_Bradley on Sept 8, 2023 9:39:45 GMT -5
This has got to be one of the gaudiest Golden Age costumes I've ever found: I don't mind it, but i question the white. Must be hell to keep clean when battling through a war zone. His side-kick is Bleach Boy. |
|
as the guiding force behind this cover. 
