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Post by Prince Hal on Jul 28, 2018 11:36:54 GMT -5
Two excellent posts, MWGallaher and codystarbuck . I did so want the Freedom Fighters to work, but you've nailed two of the big reasons they didn't. Like Indiana Jones, they are at their best against the Nazis. A guerilla group of superheroes would have at least provided something new. Another fugitive hero group was abad way to go. (Like Uncle Sam is any more believable in that scenario... like having Santa on the run from the cops.) Uncle Sam could have been a Spectre-like character, as MW describes, and the others could have been costumed distinctively, but in some sort of military-style gear. And their powers need not have stayed exactly as they had been. Any kind of retro-fitting would have worked. Great points about the Ray's and Black Condor's costumes. In the Golden Age, Lou Fine made the Condor's (and the Ray's) look functional and dashing at the same time. Fine's modern counterparts didn't come close. And the poor Ray looked like a banana, period. (Which may explain why his costume went to a far more exciting color... orange!) PS: Nobody could get Uncle Sam's hat right.      In retrospect, FF makes you appreciate what a good job Roy Thomas did combining Golden Age charm and modern comics sensibility in All-Star Squadron. |
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Post by elcadejo on Jul 28, 2018 11:53:58 GMT -5
The main oddity about Team America is that, with the Marauder rescuing them every episode, yet simultaneously having no personality (or even a face), the comic was completely lacking in suspense and the Marauder completely impossible to empathise with. Outside of that it was no worse than any other mid-range comic of the era.
The Wanderers solo title completely offended me. I actually liked the original team and thought it'd be a good opportunity to start off with a new sci-fi title without the decades of continuity the LSH title had, but once I saw the team killed in the first issue and replaced with clones, I put it back in disgust and never looked at it again.
X-Force was undoubtedly the most ill-conceived and inexplicably motivated team in the history of comics though.
I'll also mention the 70's Champions. To be fair, I actually liked the comic reasonably enough, especially the last few ones drawn by Byrne (who gave us the best Iceman costume ever, sadly never seen again. But it was such a random mélange of characters, and when a group of billionaire mutants, Greek gods, and bikers possessed by demons declare themselves representatives of the 'common man,' you know they're floundering conceptually.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 28, 2018 22:10:40 GMT -5
Two excellent posts, MWGallaher and codystarbuck . I did so want the Freedom Fighters to work, but you've nailed two of the big reasons they didn't. Like Indiana Jones, they are at their best against the Nazis. A guerilla group of superheroes would have at least provided something new. Another fugitive hero group was abad way to go. (Like Uncle Sam is any more believable in that scenario... like having Santa on the run from the cops.) Uncle Sam could have been a Spectre-like character, as MW describes, and the others could have been costumed distinctively, but in some sort of military-style gear. And their powers need not have stayed exactly as they had been. Any kind of retro-fitting would have worked. Great points about the Ray's and Black Condor's costumes. In the Golden Age, Lou Fine made the Condor's (and the Ray's) look functional and dashing at the same time. Fine's modern counterparts didn't come close. And the poor Ray looked like a banana, period. (Which may explain why his costume went to a far more exciting color... orange!) PS: Nobody could get Uncle Sam's hat right. In retrospect, FF makes you appreciate what a good job Roy Thomas did combining Golden Age charm and modern comics sensibility in All-Star Squadron. Lou Fine made bothe the Ray and Black Condor gorgeous. Black Condor's costume added to the dynamics of Fine's flight scenes. Condor didn't just hover in the air, like other heroes, or rocket along, like Superman; he dove and swooped and soared, like a real bird. Fine just made it look so beautiful. No one has ever communicated the joy of flight like Fine. By contrast, DC had Ric Estrada, Pablo Marcos, Ramona Fradon and Dick Ayers. Fradon was great on Aquaman and Metamorpho; but, not this kind of stuff (and she hated drawing superheroes) and ASyers was also better at more realistic stuff, like westerns or war books, though his Avenger, for Magazine Enterprises, was a nice mix of superhero and spy. He at least tried; but, all were saddled with changing inkers, so you could never get a consistent look. Of the entire run, the only stories I liked were the Invaders crossover and the last two, with Batgirl and Batwoman as guest stars (mainly because it picked them up after a pairing in Batman Family). |
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Post by sabongero on Aug 8, 2018 12:45:12 GMT -5
Gerry Conway, in the 80s (especially the late 80s) was not the Gerry Conway of the 70s. He was pretty burnt out, as a writer and he was largely given carte blanche, on his titles. He had some really good stuff, during his tenure; but, not by that point. It was bad enough that the team was, more or less, killed off, to make way for the Giffen/DeMatteis/Maguire group, which was a massive hit. He went back to Marvel and handled the secondary Spider-Man books (Spectacular and Web), which drew some flak from critics, on some of his stories, due to some lazy writing. Some of it was nitpicky, like geography. He ended up moving on to television, with the occasional comic book piece (like the Topps Kibryverse books and a couple of things at DC and Marvel). At the time, the story hook was there was an emergency and Aquaman summoned the League; but, the big guns didn't make it. So, he basically fired anyone not willing to make a full-time commitment and started with a young team and under-represented characters. I have never heard whether that was precipitated by the Superman and Batman offices or whether Conway initiated that. He was, as Cei-U points out, trying to emulate Marvel's X-Men and the Wolfman & Perez Teen Titans (which was DC's number 1 comic). Problem was, nobody cared about these characters. Steel was a new version of a fairly mediocre knock-off (created by Conway and swiping from Captain America and the Six Million Dollar Man). That was about all he had going for him. Gypsy's powers were hardly spectacular, though her relationship with J'onn was one of the better points. Vibe was pure stereotype and people hated him, with a passion. Zatanna was poorly handled throughout Conway's run, though there was a brief, interesting moment, where there is an attraction between her and Barry Allen. Conway really just did't make them an interesting group, though it has its fans. Guys. I just wanted to ask. Have you ever encountered reading a series that you liked. And then all of a sudden there was a downgrade shift in quality, but it was still the same writer for the series? Which comic book series where you reading at the time and who was the writer, and how did you detect the downward shift in quality? |
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 8, 2018 14:33:58 GMT -5
Gerry Conway, in the 80s (especially the late 80s) was not the Gerry Conway of the 70s. He was pretty burnt out, as a writer and he was largely given carte blanche, on his titles. He had some really good stuff, during his tenure; but, not by that point. It was bad enough that the team was, more or less, killed off, to make way for the Giffen/DeMatteis/Maguire group, which was a massive hit. He went back to Marvel and handled the secondary Spider-Man books (Spectacular and Web), which drew some flak from critics, on some of his stories, due to some lazy writing. Some of it was nitpicky, like geography. He ended up moving on to television, with the occasional comic book piece (like the Topps Kibryverse books and a couple of things at DC and Marvel). At the time, the story hook was there was an emergency and Aquaman summoned the League; but, the big guns didn't make it. So, he basically fired anyone not willing to make a full-time commitment and started with a young team and under-represented characters. I have never heard whether that was precipitated by the Superman and Batman offices or whether Conway initiated that. He was, as Cei-U points out, trying to emulate Marvel's X-Men and the Wolfman & Perez Teen Titans (which was DC's number 1 comic). Problem was, nobody cared about these characters. Steel was a new version of a fairly mediocre knock-off (created by Conway and swiping from Captain America and the Six Million Dollar Man). That was about all he had going for him. Gypsy's powers were hardly spectacular, though her relationship with J'onn was one of the better points. Vibe was pure stereotype and people hated him, with a passion. Zatanna was poorly handled throughout Conway's run, though there was a brief, interesting moment, where there is an attraction between her and Barry Allen. Conway really just did't make them an interesting group, though it has its fans. Guys. I just wanted to ask. Have you ever encountered reading a series that you liked. And then all of a sudden there was a downgrade shift in quality, but it was still the same writer for the series? Which comic book series where you reading at the time and who was the writer, and how did you detect the downward shift in quality? New Teen Titans. After the Judas Contract, Marv was running out of ideas and Perez moved on to write his own stories. Wolfman went through major writer's block and the series took a real nosedive. John Ostrander's Manhunter started out like gangbusters, then slowly turned into pretty average to mediocre stories. He got too wrapped up in Mark Shaw's family drama and kind of let the whole supervillain bounty hunter gimmick lapse, which is part of why Doug Rice left the series. The stuff that he and Kim Yale were doing wasn't bad; but, the balance wasn't quite there. |
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