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Post by Randle-El on Jul 31, 2018 13:21:16 GMT -5
Lately I have been entertaining this thought, especially with regards to villains. It was not too long ago that superhero TV shows were generally "villain-of-the-week" affairs, without a whole lot of longer arcs or continuity between episodes. I think TV shows like Lost were pretty influential in popularizing longer form storytelling, and this definitely trickled down to superhero shows as well. But lately it feels like the TV writers have swapped one formula for another. In the case of contemporary TV shows, they have simply swapped "villain-of-the-week" for "villain-of-the-season". This pattern is especially blatant with the CW DC shows, where each season is defined by the villain they will encounter and defeat by the season finale.
Of course, the super-villain is a convention of superhero fiction, and also is a large part of what makes these stories work, so I'm not suggesting that the writers completely abandon this approach. But I wonder if other approaches to driving the story might inject some freshness to the genre. As it stands now, for most superhero TV shows, it's a pretty reliably formula that the season premier will introduce some new villain, somewhere around mid-season the hero will suffer a fantastic defeat, only to rally and defeat the villain by the end of the season, with little carryover across seasons.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2018 20:54:03 GMT -5
As you stated the writers switched one formula for another. TV shows tend to follow a formula until it is no longer popular. For me I have lost interest in the DC CW TV shows & Marvel's Netflix shows.
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 2, 2018 17:17:33 GMT -5
Babylon 5 and British serials, like Blake's 7 and Doctor Who were there earlier; but, Babylon 5 had a definite ending in mind (Game of Thrones sort of does, though it has been a bit fluid, after they passed the printed material).
Serial storytelling usually falls into a formula. The pulps had them, genre novel series had them, tv has them, and film franchises have them. It's kind of necessary to churn out endless product. The problem that is, after a while, you notice the formula more than the stories and it usually means it is time to move on.
I read about 3 Doc Savage novels, after hunting down any I could fine, only to find that the formula was pretty obvious, fairly quickly, and left a stack of them unread, before getting rid of them. The original Fleming Bonds were very formulaic, with the mission laid out, flemings long descriptive passages of the locale, Bond's clothing, his meal, investigations, counter moves by the villain, rescue of the damsel and climax, with the wind down for an epilogue. It carried over to the films, with the formula really only changing when the role did, depending on the strengths of the actor. With Moore, they added more sight gags and double entendres, with the big stunt set piece somewhere in the middle (though with a few in the teaser). The violence was cartoonier than Connery's time, though his films were starting to go there (Diamonds went fully there). Dalton pulled back into more serious territory, though the big stunt pieces remained. Brosnan mixed a bit of both, with big stunts in the teaser and the middle. Craig moved into deadly serious, with the crashing buildings in the climax and brutal chases in the early stages.
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Post by Warmonger on Aug 2, 2018 18:23:08 GMT -5
I’m only really familiar with the Netflix Marvel shows, but yes, they’ve become very formulaic.
I still think it would be great if they would keep the 12-13 episode seasons, but break them down into 3 separate 4 episode story arcs.
Even the ones I really enjoy like Daredevil and The Punisher start to wear thin at a certain point.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Aug 2, 2018 20:55:39 GMT -5
I’m only really familiar with the Netflix Marvel shows, but yes, they’ve become very formulaic. I still think it would be great if they would keep the 12-13 episode seasons, but break them down into 3 separate 4 episode story arcs. Even the ones I really enjoy like Daredevil and The Punisher start to wear thin at a certain point. Good Lord! Are we going to agree twice in a millennium? I think they suffer from having one drawn out plot with one Big Bad. Even if they didn’t take down the main villain until the end of the season it would still help to have another story-arc within the season.
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Post by Warmonger on Aug 2, 2018 21:13:12 GMT -5
I’m only really familiar with the Netflix Marvel shows, but yes, they’ve become very formulaic. I still think it would be great if they would keep the 12-13 episode seasons, but break them down into 3 separate 4 episode story arcs. Even the ones I really enjoy like Daredevil and The Punisher start to wear thin at a certain point. Good Lord! Are we going to agree twice in a millennium? I think they suffer from having one drawn out plot with one Big Bad. Even if they didn’t take down the main villain until the end of the season it would still help to have another story-arc within the season. Yep I know it won’t happen, but I’d love to see them treat the 2nd season of The Punisher much like Ennis’ MAX series where most of the spotlight and development is given to the villains and supporting characters and then Frank occasionally blows through like a force of nature. Ennis almost treated Frank like a Jason Vorhees or Michael Myers...and it worked sublimely. Because even though I’m a big fan of the character, I’ll be the first to admit that he’s pretty one dimensional. And when you focus the majority of a 13 hour series on him, you basically have no choice but to overly humanize him and make him relatable. Which was one of my complaints about the Netflix series.
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Post by Randle-El on Aug 2, 2018 21:21:57 GMT -5
To be clear, I don't necessarily think that formulaic is always bad. It just depends on the execution. The CW shows are starting to look like they are using a template with interchangeable pieces. Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. has been a bit more interesting, because for the last couple of seasons they have gone with the approach of breaking up the season long story into shorter arcs, which I think has been working well.
Again, I'm not saying superhero shows need to abandon their roots -- by their nature, they need to abide by certain tropes, and I don't have a problem with that. But I'd like see the writers take the tropes in new ways, maybe taking cues from other TV shows. For example, shows like Smallville and Lost both had their season-long arcs, but they also had overarching mythologies that carried over from season to season. Star Trek DS9 told a serialized story, but it didn't necessarily fit into the confines of a "villain-of-the-season", and did a pretty good job of balancing between done-in-one episodes that are typical of Star Trek and episodes which were part of the larger story. And from what I recall, the Dominion War actually played out over the course of something like 3-4 seasons, if you count the foreshadowing, build-up, and the actual war itself. I'd like to see a superhero show do something with a villain who is the hero's adversary over the course of several seasons, perhaps even the entire series. I think Smallville did something close to that with Lionel Luthor, and later Lex.
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Post by rberman on Aug 2, 2018 21:30:54 GMT -5
As noted, Babylon 5 has the distinction of having been pre-emptively organized into five seasons with clear moments of transition marking the end of each season, leading to the ultimate conclusion of the story. (It didn't get made exactly according to plan, but it tried.) Around the same time, X-Files fell backwards into an ongoing story punctuating its stand-alone monster episodes. After watching Babylon 5, Deep Space 9 tried a similar strategy in its latter half. Buffy the Vampire Slayer seems to have been a pivotal show for popularizing the concept of (and giving name to) the "Big Bad" structure, where each season had its own specific arc with a series of minor skirmishes leading to an ultimate war with a particular foe who more or less disappeared after that season. The reboot of Doctor Who leaned into this concept heavily, as did other Whedonesque shows like Angel and Agents of SHIELD. I'm pretty sure Firefly was going to do the same thing. Dollhouse did as well, but it squished several seasons worth of plot into its truncated second season. Lost and Battlestar Galactica were in the next wave developing this notion, and the Marvel Netflix shows do as well. Am I leaving out any major milestones? I never watched Farscape or the Stargate TV shows, but I bet they were along the same lines.
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 2, 2018 23:19:22 GMT -5
As noted, Babylon 5 has the distinction of having been pre-emptively organized into five seasons with clear moments of transition marking the end of each season, leading to the ultimate conclusion of the story. (It didn't get made exactly according to plan, but it tried.) Around the same time, X-Files fell backwards into an ongoing story punctuating its stand-alone monster episodes. After watching Babylon 5, Deep Space 9 tried a similar strategy in its latter half. Buffy the Vampire Slayer seems to have been a pivotal show for popularizing the concept of (and giving name to) the "Big Bad" structure, where each season had its own specific arc with a series of minor skirmishes leading to an ultimate war with a particular foe who more or less disappeared after that season. The reboot of Doctor Who leaned into this concept heavily, as did other Whedonesque shows like Angel and Agents of SHIELD. I'm pretty sure Firefly was going to do the same thing. Dollhouse did as well, but it squished several seasons worth of plot into its truncated second season. Lost and Battlestar Galactica were in the next wave developing this notion, and the Marvel Netflix shows do as well. Am I leaving out any major milestones? I never watched Farscape or the Stargate TV shows, but I bet they were along the same lines. Farscape and Stargate evolved into that, certainly. Weeds had a similar thing going, with an overarcing threat to Nancy and her family, with their status quo usually falling apart in the season finale. GLOW has kind of followed that same structure, with the story building to the finale, with a central plotline carried throughout the season. In the first season it was about learning to perform a wrestling match, building to shooting the show pilot. The second season was about Debbie's coping with divorce and chauvinism, as they produce their first season and deal with potential cancellation, after Ruth spurns the advances of a tv exec. There are running subplots (more in season 1 than 2), as well, such as season 2's where Bash searches for Florian and is confronted with his own closeted sexuality. GLOW isn't as strong an example, as the dynamic is a bit different between the first and second season; but, the central plot structure is similar.
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Post by Dizzy D on Aug 3, 2018 2:24:25 GMT -5
*Looks at Legion*
Maybe some of them, but not all.
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Post by brutalis on Aug 3, 2018 8:01:45 GMT -5
Are comic book television shows any more formulaic than Sitcoms? Or Police/Crime/Procedural shows? Or Westerns? Or Mysteries? Pretty much any television show follows a standard formula/process. It is what "Hollywood" understands: a generic formula to follow within a 1/2 hour or 1 hour program. A set up, then a bit of foreshadowing/plot, then solving the issue and then a big finish. It is WHAT and WHO is involved during the story that is meant to entertain and enlighten. Go too far away from the formula/plan and you sometimes end up with awful or truly terrible television. Creativity and writing and acting is what makes all the difference...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2018 8:28:35 GMT -5
Are comic book television shows any more formulaic than Sitcoms? Or Police/Crime/Procedural shows? Or Westerns? Or Mysteries? Pretty much any television show follows a standard formula/process. It is what "Hollywood" understands: a generic formula to follow within a 1/2 hour or 1 hour program. A set up, then a bit of foreshadowing/plot, then solving the issue and then a big finish. It is WHAT and WHO is involved during the story that is meant to entertain and enlighten. Go too far away from the formula/plan and you sometimes end up with awful or truly terrible television. Creativity and writing and acting is what makes all the difference... Agreed. But what I think the original poster meant was the change in the way the shows are now with a season long villain. I had commented on this several times on reviews of the DC CW shows. They have an idea that is decent for 8-10 episodes and pad it to make a 22 episode season. That is why they lost me as a viewer. I'm tired of watching seasons that are 50-60% "filler". I would rather go back to the days where each episode stood on its own than have to sit thru an entire season like you do now.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2018 8:57:27 GMT -5
Yes, I rather watch George Reeves Superman, Adam West Batman, Van Williams Green Hornet, Lynda Carter Wonder Woman, Lois and Clark New Adventures of Superman, and others that made in the 50's to the 80's over the shows that are being made in the past 5-10 years and I agree that current superhero shows are being very formulaic in design and that's bothers me a lot and I don't watch Arrow, Flash, Black Lightning, and any others at all these days because they don't do me any justice and becoming more soap opera-like that bothers me a lot. The costumes that they shows these days irks me the most ...
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Post by rberman on Aug 3, 2018 9:09:18 GMT -5
Are comic book television shows any more formulaic than Sitcoms? Or Police/Crime/Procedural shows? Or Westerns? Or Mysteries? Pretty much any television show follows a standard formula/process. It is what "Hollywood" understands: a generic formula to follow within a 1/2 hour or 1 hour program. A set up, then a bit of foreshadowing/plot, then solving the issue and then a big finish. It is WHAT and WHO is involved during the story that is meant to entertain and enlighten. Go too far away from the formula/plan and you sometimes end up with awful or truly terrible television. Creativity and writing and acting is what makes all the difference... True at least within our culture. I watched Akira last night with my 15 year old son, and he was taken aback by the non-Western plot structure. It "failed" to follow the expected beats time and again, because it comes out of a different storytelling tradition.
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Post by brutalis on Aug 3, 2018 9:20:33 GMT -5
Are comic book television shows any more formulaic than Sitcoms? Or Police/Crime/Procedural shows? Or Westerns? Or Mysteries? Pretty much any television show follows a standard formula/process. It is what "Hollywood" understands: a generic formula to follow within a 1/2 hour or 1 hour program. A set up, then a bit of foreshadowing/plot, then solving the issue and then a big finish. It is WHAT and WHO is involved during the story that is meant to entertain and enlighten. Go too far away from the formula/plan and you sometimes end up with awful or truly terrible television. Creativity and writing and acting is what makes all the difference... Agreed. But what I think the original poster meant was the change in the way the shows are now with a season long villain. I had commented on this several times on reviews of the DC CW shows. They have an idea that is decent for 8-10 episodes and pad it to make a 22 episode season. That is why they lost me as a viewer. I'm tired of watching seasons that are 50-60% "filler". I would rather go back to the days where each episode stood on its own than have to sit thru an entire season like you do now. Understood, but commercial television with 22 episodes to fulfill versus cable/satellite/pay with only 10 episodes is the problem. Sometimes 10 is enough and other times not. 22 can be a bit long but most seasons in any type of series are meant to have an overall arc or concept to focus upon with individual episodes falling throughout. I prefer a season long arc slow burn with plots, ideas, build up and hints rather than the old days one and done and its over style. A good mixture of both works best IMO.
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