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Post by mikelmidnight on Oct 10, 2019 12:00:26 GMT -5
I'm glad so many people liked the Dian Belmont thing. A question nagging in the back of my mind, however, is... "Earth-2", "New DCU", "other"? I mentione this because... it sure as hell seemed like Matt Wagner during his run of SMT was determined that "Sandy The Golden Boy" NEVER existed in his continuity... not even after he left the book. And yet, Sandy came back in " JSA". So, was Wagner wrong, or was his run in a DIFFERENT universe continuity from everything else ever done by DC ? It makes you wonder sometimes....
I mean... it is easy to say that what Roy Thomas wrote was "Earth-2" and what James Robinson wrote was "New DCU". But somehow, that still leaves "SMT" on questionable ground.
As much as I adored Wagner's series, it was not Earth-2. The Earth-2 Dian Belmont grew up an orphan, became a cat burglar named the Lady in Evening Clothes, and on her capture by Sandman it was discovered via a birthmark that she was actually Belmont's lost daughter.
A lot of the villains are slightly different, too.
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Post by profh0011 on Oct 10, 2019 14:22:33 GMT -5
As much as I adored Wagner's series, it was not Earth-2. The Earth-2 Dian Belmont grew up an orphan, became a cat burglar named the Lady in Evening Clothes, and on her capture by Sandman it was discovered via a birthmark that she was actually Belmont's lost daughter.
A lot of the villains are slightly different, too.
I did not know that. Thanks!
It's frustrating, but DC waited so long to start capitalizing on SMT (action figure, Archive book) that money got too tight for me to afford them once they came out. So, I have nearly every issue of SMT, but nearly-nothing of the original Golden Age run!!
I knew SMT wasn't Earth-2, because after CRISIS, DC seemed to have a general edict FORBIDDING anyone from writing any new Earth-2 or Earth-1 books (with the possible exception of new Earth-2 episodes in SECRET ORIGINS-- but even there, I'm not sure about some cases).
I still wound up wondering if SMT was part of the "New DCU" continuity or not. It's like, the first time Sandy turned up in SMT, I believe it was in a "fantasy" context in which he didn't really exist, but someone was making a joke about it. After Matt Wagner left, the later part of the run seemed to lighten up a bit and get away from the darkness and perversity that Wagner seemed to revel in so much. But it seems when Sandy finally did turn up again, it was in other books, not SMT.
When SMT first started, it seemed easy to believe the book might be part of the original Golden Age continuity, and perhaps being one long prequel to it. But, as you say, certain details were changed, so, in the long run, apparently not.
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Post by Cei-U! on Oct 10, 2019 19:58:32 GMT -5
The only issues of Secret Origins set on Earth-2 were #1 (Superman) and #6 (Batman). All the rest reflect--or define--post-Crisis continuity.
Cei-U!
I summon the do-overs!
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Post by berkley on Oct 10, 2019 20:37:29 GMT -5
I don't know the character Dian Belmont, but how did they get away with that name? It's like calling someone Smoky Miracle or Dianna Supreme ...
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Post by Cei-U! on Oct 10, 2019 20:47:43 GMT -5
I don't know the character Dian Belmont, but how did they get away with that name? It's like calling someone Smoky Miracle or Dianna Supreme ... Considering she first appeared in 1940, I doubt that was a problem.
The World Almanac used to claim that Lucille Ball's real name was Diane (or Dianne) Belmont. It wasn't. but it WAS the stage name she used in the early '30s before reverting to her real name. It wouldn't surprise me at all if that's where Sandman scribe Gardner Fox got the name from, consciously or otherwise.
Cei-U! I summon the untold origin story!
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Post by berkley on Oct 10, 2019 21:16:37 GMT -5
I don't know the character Dian Belmont, but how did they get away with that name? It's like calling someone Smoky Miracle or Dianna Supreme ... Considering she first appeared in 1940, I doubt that was a problem.
The World Almanac used to claim that Lucille Ball's real name was Diane (or Dianne) Belmont. It wasn't. but it WAS the stage name she used in the early '30s before reverting to her real name. It wouldn't surprise me at all if that's where Sandman scribe Gardner Fox got the name from, consciously or otherwise.
Cei-U! I summon the untold origin story!
Maybe it was the other way around then? Wiki says that Dion and the Belmonts took that name because they lived around Belmont St or something like that, but maybe they were comicbook fans too.
Or it was all just a crazy coincidence.
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Post by profh0011 on Oct 10, 2019 21:30:57 GMT -5
The only issues of Secret Origins set on Earth-2 were #1 (Superman) and #6 (Batman). All the rest reflect--or define--post-Crisis continuity. I had the feeling that was the case. Thanks for confirming it! So James Robinson DEFINITELY gave Roy Thomas the finger.
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Post by mikelmidnight on Oct 12, 2019 11:59:14 GMT -5
When SMT first started, it seemed easy to believe the book might be part of the original Golden Age continuity, and perhaps being one long prequel to it. But, as you say, certain details were changed, so, in the long run, apparently not.
This will depress you as a fan of the comic, but you know that it was truncated too early, and was slated to only run a couple more arcs before it ended naturally?
The title of the final arc was going to be:
"The Superman."
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Post by profh0011 on Oct 12, 2019 16:25:49 GMT -5
This will depress you as a fan of the comic, but you know that it was truncated too early, and was slated to only run a couple more arcs before it ended naturally?
The title of the final arc was going to be:
"The Superman."
Oh, I dunno.
The fact that it went on about 2 years (?) after Matt Wagner left makes it feel like it had a nice long run.
Truthfully, too many books go on TOO long.
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Post by foxley on Oct 12, 2019 18:50:06 GMT -5
I thought I'd posted on this earlier, but I guess I only imagined it,
The decision to make Cassandra Cain evil and the head of the League of Assassins in One Year Later. The whole thing was just so out of character, as the main driver of her personality to prove that she was not an assassin like her father, and she was sickened by the act of killing.
Eventually this was retconned as her having been brainwashed (although that still didn't explain the sudden improvement in her linguistic skills).
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Post by mikelmidnight on Oct 14, 2019 11:46:15 GMT -5
This will depress you as a fan of the comic, but you know that it was truncated too early, and was slated to only run a couple more arcs before it ended naturally?
The title of the final arc was going to be:
"The Superman."
Oh, I dunno.
The fact that it went on about 2 years (?) after Matt Wagner left makes it feel like it had a nice long run.
Truthfully, too many books go on TOO long.
Hah! I agree, and in fact the series was in downward turn since Wagner's departure. I wouldn't have wanted it to go on indefinitely, but still I'd have loved to see an SMT take on the Man of Steel.
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Post by profh0011 on Oct 14, 2019 12:58:34 GMT -5
Hah! I agree, and in fact the series was in downward turn since Wagner's departure. I wouldn't have wanted it to go on indefinitely, but still I'd have loved to see an SMT take on the Man of Steel.
I recall enjoying both writers on the book; I may have enjoyed the 2nd writer more. I loved the format they set up. Each story tended to be 4 chapters (like most Tom Baker DOCTOR WHOs), and each story was separate and self-contained. While that was going on, there was a steady development of characters and relationships. They had, I felt, a MUCH-better balance than most modern comics, which seem to obsess on being "soap-operas", and sometimes, if you're lucky, there's a "story" in there, too.
My only beef with Wagner was that too many of his stories seemed excessively "dark" and "depraved". Things seemed to lighten up a lot after he left, and I didn't mind that at all.
Come to think of it... that was also a pet peeve of mine with Tom Baker's WHO run. I love gothic horror... but not in EVERY story for 4 straight years! It's surprising to me, but these days, I tend to enjoy the stories with Romana more than the ones with Sarah-Jane.
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Post by mikelmidnight on Oct 15, 2019 13:07:55 GMT -5
I recall enjoying both writers on the book; I may have enjoyed the 2nd writer more. I loved the format they set up. Each story tended to be 4 chapters (like most Tom Baker DOCTOR WHOs), and each story was separate and self-contained. While that was going on, there was a steady development of characters and relationships. They had, I felt, a MUCH-better balance than most modern comics, which seem to obsess on being "soap-operas", and sometimes, if you're lucky, there's a "story" in there, too. My only beef with Wagner was that too many of his stories seemed excessively "dark" and "depraved". Things seemed to lighten up a lot after he left, and I didn't mind that at all.
Come to think of it... that was also a pet peeve of mine with Tom Baker's WHO run. I love gothic horror... but not in EVERY story for 4 straight years! It's surprising to me, but these days, I tend to enjoy the stories with Romana more than the ones with Sarah-Jane.
I felt that Wagner's mysteries rarely seemed formulaic (or at least glaringly so), whereas reading the stories by the later writer often left me feeling that they were redundant.
The only Wagner arc I really detested was the Phantom of the Fair (it sneered at Roy Thomas pointlessly, and the series never did homosexuality well). The Scarlet Ghost was also sort of annoying in that it jibed at the S&K issues but, again, pointlessly.
I love Romana, especially the second one. She's my favorite companion.
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