shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Oct 12, 2021 19:57:19 GMT -5
This issue contains a statement of ownership with some alarming figures. The average number of copies printed over the past year is 237,811 (very low for the pre-direct market era!), the most recent issue's numbers are only 229,307 (suggesting a downward trend), and the number of copies returned of the most recent issue is 142,128. Only 87,129 copies of the most recent issue of 'Tec were sold. Add to that the question of how many of those customers actually cared to read the Batgirl b-stories? It would seem that Burkett and Delbo are right not to care about what they are pumping out each month, as they are playing to an empty audience anyway. The statement of ownership says the latest issue had a paid circulation of 85,567. 127 copies were distributed free and 1,485 copies were not distributed. Thus the number gets even bleaker. We all know the story of how it was saved from cancellation, but looking at numbers like this, I'm kind of amazed Kahn didn't drop the axe anyway. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Oct 15, 2021 18:05:13 GMT -5
Yet nowadays they won't like Dick leave Gotham for long.. he has to get sucked back in for every crossover. I didn't realize how poorly Batman was doing at the time... I guess the movie (and Frank Miller) really saved the franchise!
Also, I'll forever consider Dick Grayson a TITANS character, not a Batman character, even if DC doesn't agree with me.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Oct 21, 2021 13:05:31 GMT -5
*Note: Batman #347 was a fill-in issue written by Roger Slifer that featured neither Dick Grayson nor Barbara Gordon. Batman #348 (June 1982)  "Shadow Play" Script: Gerry Conway Pencils: Gene Colan Inks: Klaus Janson Colors: Adrienne Roy Letters: Ben Oda Grade: N/A (only exploring Robin and Batgirl's roles in this story) Three years ago, (then) editor Paul Levitz decided that Robin and Batgirl were outshining Batman and needed to be reigned in. A slow process has been underway since that time, in which Batgirl has been repeatedly weakened and diminished, while Robin has been moved around as ensuing editor Dick Giordano and writer Gerry Conway worked to figure out where the Teen Wonder fit best within the Batman franchise. This issue would appear to be the culmination of both editors' efforts: Batman and Robin are moving back into Wayne Manor so that it can be like the 1960s all over again, only now Barbara Gordon is primarily a concerned daughter, her soon-to-be-cancelled adventures as Batgirl not even considered as Babs decides she needs someone's help to save her father's jeopardized career:  What? Solve the problem as Batgirl? Who's that?Dick fares no better in this story, in which he is the goofy and inferior sidekick once again. Even this dramatic opening panel is eclipsed by Bruce's nagging Dick to be more careful:  This is NOT the capable, mature leader currently existing in the pages of New Teen Titans:  but at least he and Bruce can bond over it afterwards:  But, after this moment, Dick is just a supporting character in the rest of the story, expressing concern for Batman  and giving him opportunities to explain things for the readers  but never suiting up, nor even playing an active role in the story that unfolds. So maybe it isn't the 1960s all over again, after all. Back then, both Robin and Batgirl were valuable/memorable presences in the Batman Family. Here, neither is allowed to get into costume nor even mention their alter egos, content to be supporting characters in Batman's world. Once again, I strongly suspect that Giordano and Conway are carefully baiting readers and awaiting their reactions to determine where to take these characters: Robin is in costume on the cover but never suits up nor does anything in the comic within; do readers care? Babs Gordon shows up each issue as support to James Gordon but never even mentions her dual identity; do readers care? And if they don't, maybe that explains why Batgirl's backup feature is about to get cancelled and Dick is about to be replaced with a much younger stand-in. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Oct 21, 2021 21:01:16 GMT -5
So as I read these reviews, and think about Dick in the Titans... I wonder, what if editoral went in another direction. The editors were concerned about the 'next generation overshadowing Batman... what if instead of trying to quash that, they leaned into it? Robin departs for good.... and Bruce retires, leaving Gotham to Batwoman Barbara Gordon, who then picks up her own Robin.... maybe Bruce dies heroics during crisis... or sits in the background with funding and tech (sorta like in Batman Beyond)... what would the DCU look like?
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Oct 21, 2021 21:23:06 GMT -5
So as I read these reviews, and think about Dick in the Titans... I wonder, what if editoral went in another direction. The editors were concerned about the 'next generation overshadowing Batman... what if instead of trying to quash that, they leaned into it? Robin departs for good.... and Bruce retires, leaving Gotham to Batwoman Barbara Gordon, who then picks up her own Robin.... maybe Bruce dies heroics during crisis... or sits in the background with funding and tech (sorta like in Batman Beyond)... what would the DCU look like? I can't imagine Warner was ever going to let them get away with devaluing the Batman merchandising license, but I do think Marv Wolfman was pushing hard for a solo Robin who could exceed his mentor. Dick even playfully refers to himself as "The World's Greatest Detective" in this month's New Teen Titans #19. As for Batgirl, there was a serious vendetta against her for reasons I still don't understand. Was it just because she was a female rival for Batman's mantle? They senselessly killed off her mentor, Kathy Kane, in Tec #485 without even giving the killer a motive, then had her lose her reelection to congress (off-panel, nonetheless!) just prior to Tec #488, then wiped her mind of Batman and Robin's identities (while they continued to know hers) in 'Tec #489, then nearly killed her and turned her into a traumatized victim in 'Tec #491-502, and then ditched any sense of past trauma and just generally painted her as an incompetent rookie in every depiction since. So I think the Huntress had a better chance of taking over for Batman than Batgirl, and even then probably in her alternate timeline. Really, it is a shame that DC has always struggled so much with how to use its second generation, because they were always going to be more relatable to teen readers, but they were always going to pose a threat to the tried and true licensed properties too. |
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Post by profh0011 on Oct 22, 2021 10:39:39 GMT -5
"They senselessly killed off her mentor, Kathy Kane, in Tec #485 without even giving the killer a motive"I have always blamed Denny O'Neil for that. To me, it just seemed like a publicity stunt, and a really, really lame one at that (similar to Ted Kord's murder at the hands of whoever decided to do that many years later). But I don't ever remember any reference to Kathy & Barbara knowing each other. It would have made sense, but all I recall was O'Neil suddenly bringing Kathy out of a long, long retirement... JUST to murder her FOR NO DAMN REASON. Then he went to Marvel and dragged Tony Stark thru the mud for 3 whole years. I wish O'Neil had retired by 1980. I really do. then wiped her mind of Batman and Robin's identities (while they continued to know hers) in 'Tec #489I've no memory if I read this or not... what were the details? This sounds like how, very early in the Post-Crisis era, they suddenly decided to have Catwoman become brainwashed... the result of which was, she went BACK to being a criminal, after many years of being reformed. (An incident which I believe, soon after, the completey "forgot" ever happened.)
Re-watching the 60s BATMAN tv series, season 3 (which Barbara was CREATED for!) has a slow, subtle story arc where B&R come to trust Batgirl and decide they're not going to try figuring out who she really is. But having Alfred knowing all of their secrets must have gotten frustrating for him. In recent years, I hit on the idea that, had they made it to a 4th season, the opening episodes should have ended with Alfred telling all 3 of them he's had enough-- and if they don't tell each other their secrets, HE WILL. Which would have resulted in a very different dynamic for the rest of the episodes, with them no longer having to sneak around (except, all of them would still be sneaking around behind the Commissioner-- heh).
One of the funiest moments had to be when Barbara snuck into her father's office and used the Batphone to call Batman (as Batgirl). Right after she hung up, her father came in, they said, hi, bye, and she left. Then the phone rang, Batman called back and asked if Batgirl was still there. And Gordon NEVER put two-and-two together. (How dense was he? Yes, it was a comedy...)
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Oct 22, 2021 11:26:49 GMT -5
then wiped her mind of Batman and Robin's identities (while they continued to know hers) in 'Tec #489I've no memory if I read this or not... what were the details? . The key here is how close in time all of this happened. Batgirl and Robin were the reason Batman Family was outselling the other Bat titles in the mid 1970s, and Paul Levitz heavily suggested he had a problem with this in the letter columns when he would write things like:  Immediately upon Levitz taking the editorial reigns, both Wein's work on the core Batman titles and everyone's work on the Batman Family title took an abrupt shift backwards towards the Silver Age, with colorful costumed villains and Batgirl and Robin getting knocked down several pegs so that there was no longer any question as to who the most capable member of the Bat Family was. Thus, in the span of only one year, they systematically dismantled everything about Barbara Gordon that made her a powerful figure on par with Batman, and they made Robin a little dopier and less independent too. That wasn't just O'Neil, though he certainly may have been happy to play a part in it. [/div][/quote] I definitely would have enjoyed that! Detective Comics #423 established the fact that (at least in the comics) Gordon knew all along and just chose to play dumb. One would hope that the chief of police isn't an idiot, and considering that the comic version of Batgirl has the exact same flaming red hair as the comic version of Babs Gordon, Jim Gordon would have to be a total idiot not to at least have considered it. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Oct 22, 2021 20:30:18 GMT -5
I guess it's because the DC old timey editors believed their audience turned over every couple years... if they learned what I now call the secret of JK Rowling (having your books and characters grow up with your audience).. they never would have done that.
Perhaps it was part of the insecurities of the fact that DC has always seemed 2nd to Marvel that they felt their prime characters had to stay the best? I mean, isn't having your mentor grow up and be on his own the point of training them?
And really... to a large extent, DC is still doing it. After letting the 2nd generation breathe and kinda take over after zero hour, they walked it back, and now they have no idea what to do with characters like Kyle Rayner, Connor Hawke and Tim Drake.
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Post by profh0011 on Oct 22, 2021 22:14:42 GMT -5
After letting the 2nd generation breathe and kinda take over after zero hour, they walked it back, and now they have no idea what to do with characters like Kyle Rayner, Connor Hawke and Tim Drake. I recall really enjoying some DC books from the 90s. Mostly the ones that would have earlier been "Earth-2" books.
The more I hear about what happened to DC since I stopped buying comics in general (due to lack of money), the more I'm glad I stopped buying comics in general.
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Post by codystarbuck on Oct 22, 2021 22:26:53 GMT -5
"They senselessly killed off her mentor, Kathy Kane, in Tec #485 without even giving the killer a motive"I have always blamed Denny O'Neil for that. To me, it just seemed like a publicity stunt, and a really, really lame one at that (similar to Ted Kord's murder at the hands of whoever decided to do that many years later). But I don't ever remember any reference to Kathy & Barbara knowing each other. It would have made sense, but all I recall was O'Neil suddenly bringing Kathy out of a long, long retirement... JUST to murder her FOR NO DAMN REASON. Then he went to Marvel and dragged Tony Stark thru the mud for 3 whole years. I wish O'Neil had retired by 1980. I really do. then wiped her mind of Batman and Robin's identities (while they continued to know hers) in 'Tec #489I've no memory if I read this or not... what were the details? This sounds like how, very early in the Post-Crisis era, they suddenly decided to have Catwoman become brainwashed... the result of which was, she went BACK to being a criminal, after many years of being reformed. (An incident which I believe, soon after, the completey "forgot" ever happened.)
Re-watching the 60s BATMAN tv series, season 3 (which Barbara was CREATED for!) has a slow, subtle story arc where B&R come to trust Batgirl and decide they're not going to try figuring out who she really is. But having Alfred knowing all of their secrets must have gotten frustrating for him. In recent years, I hit on the idea that, had they made it to a 4th season, the opening episodes should have ended with Alfred telling all 3 of them he's had enough-- and if they don't tell each other their secrets, HE WILL. Which would have resulted in a very different dynamic for the rest of the episodes, with them no longer having to sneak around (except, all of them would still be sneaking around behind the Commissioner-- heh).
One of the funiest moments had to be when Barbara snuck into her father's office and used the Batphone to call Batman (as Batgirl). Right after she hung up, her father came in, they said, hi, bye, and she left. Then the phone rang, Batman called back and asked if Batgirl was still there. And Gordon NEVER put two-and-two together. (How dense was he? Yes, it was a comedy...)
Batgirl and Batwoman work together in Batman Family #10 & 14, and in Freedom Fighters #14 and 15, in the mid-70s. Batwoman was killed just after that. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Oct 25, 2021 10:00:07 GMT -5
"They senselessly killed off her mentor, Kathy Kane, in Tec #485 without even giving the killer a motive"I have always blamed Denny O'Neil for that. To me, it just seemed like a publicity stunt, and a really, really lame one at that (similar to Ted Kord's murder at the hands of whoever decided to do that many years later). But I don't ever remember any reference to Kathy & Barbara knowing each other. It would have made sense, but all I recall was O'Neil suddenly bringing Kathy out of a long, long retirement... JUST to murder her FOR NO DAMN REASON. Then he went to Marvel and dragged Tony Stark thru the mud for 3 whole years. I wish O'Neil had retired by 1980. I really do. then wiped her mind of Batman and Robin's identities (while they continued to know hers) in 'Tec #489I've no memory if I read this or not... what were the details? This sounds like how, very early in the Post-Crisis era, they suddenly decided to have Catwoman become brainwashed... the result of which was, she went BACK to being a criminal, after many years of being reformed. (An incident which I believe, soon after, the completey "forgot" ever happened.)
Re-watching the 60s BATMAN tv series, season 3 (which Barbara was CREATED for!) has a slow, subtle story arc where B&R come to trust Batgirl and decide they're not going to try figuring out who she really is. But having Alfred knowing all of their secrets must have gotten frustrating for him. In recent years, I hit on the idea that, had they made it to a 4th season, the opening episodes should have ended with Alfred telling all 3 of them he's had enough-- and if they don't tell each other their secrets, HE WILL. Which would have resulted in a very different dynamic for the rest of the episodes, with them no longer having to sneak around (except, all of them would still be sneaking around behind the Commissioner-- heh). One of the funiest moments had to be when Barbara snuck into her father's office and used the Batphone to call Batman (as Batgirl). Right after she hung up, her father came in, they said, hi, bye, and she left. Then the phone rang, Batman called back and asked if Batgirl was still there. And Gordon NEVER put two-and-two together. (How dense was he? Yes, it was a comedy...)
Batgirl and Batwoman work together in Batman Family #10 & 14, and in Freedom Fighters #14 and 15, in the mid-70s. Batwoman was killed just after that. A damn shame as Kathy's mentor/mentee relationship with Babs was possibly the only believable relationship Bob Rozakis ever wrote:  |
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Post by chaykinstevens on Oct 25, 2021 14:02:08 GMT -5
I was reading Amazing Heroes #50, which includes a long feature in which Denny O'Neil chatted with Mike W Barr about every Batman story O'Neil had written up to 1984. Barr wondered if the editor (i.e Paul Levitz) had asked O'Neil to kill off Batwoman, and O'Neil said he must have, as he almost never did things like that on his own.
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Post by chaykinstevens on Nov 7, 2021 17:18:46 GMT -5
The statement of ownership says the latest issue had a paid circulation of 85,567. 127 copies were distributed free and 1,485 copies were not distributed. Thus the number gets even bleaker. We all know the story of how it was saved from cancellation, but looking at numbers like this, I'm kind of amazed Kahn didn't drop the axe anyway. I don't think DC had an abundance of series that were selling significantly better than Detective Comics. Looking at the statements of ownership I could find in other titles showed these figures: Superman 140k JLA 125k LSH 116k Batman 111k Action Comics 101k Sgt Rock 101k Superboy 96k Brave and Bold 88k Green Lantern 87k Jonah Hex 87k Flash 86k Unknown Soldier 82k - cancelled five months later Wonder Woman 80k - had recently been revamped by Thomas and Colan Ghosts 80k, cancelled immediately House of Mystery 79k - cancelled about 18 months later Weird War Tales 77k - cancelled about a year later Unexpected 76k, cancelled immediately Superman Family 68k - cancelled four months later to make way for the Boring Daring New Adventures of Supergirl GI Combat 67k - lasted over three more years at giant size, then reverted to standard size for a while before being cancelled. World's Finest 63k = reverted to standard size four months later The cancellation level seems to have been around 80k, except for dollar comics, which must have had a lower break-even point. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Nov 7, 2021 17:42:17 GMT -5
I don't think DC had an abundance of series that were selling significantly better than Detective Comics. Looking at the statements of ownership I could find in other titles showed these figures: Superman 140k JLA 125k LSH 116k Batman 111k Action Comics 101k Odd, though, for a top tier character book to be selling this low, especially when Superman's secondary title is beating 'Tec by 15,000 copies. Thanks for compiling these numbers! It really is astonishing to see just how bad DC's sales looked outside if its core titles at this point. |
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Post by brutalis on Nov 29, 2021 12:18:31 GMT -5
I would think that a Modern Batman Family ongoing reprinting various classic and current stories would be a no brainer. With the current Batcentric DC regime why isn't there a modern Bat Family team ongoing to focus on the vast group of heroes? Or is it considered that might detract or overshadow the Batman himself?
Maybe as a quarterly to avoid burnout or weak storylines. New story in front while using reprints as back ups. I would enjoy seeing Dick and Barbara leading from the background a squad of growing up and comers. Jason and Tim as the instructors in charge of daily training as the newbies learn their trade interacting with the likes of Gordon and the GCPD.
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