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Post by chaykinstevens on Dec 5, 2021 12:56:04 GMT -5
Even assuming Burkett knows Robin is out of commission and Batman is in Hollywood (though is he in Hollywood for multiple days?), what about Man-Bat, or Huntress, or even the new buddy cop team of Jason Bard and Jim Gordon? Are we just supposed to assume that, since she is Batgirl's villain, everyone is going to politely wait around for Batgirl to stop her? Huntress was probably unaware of the problem because she would have been on Earth-Two at the time.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Dec 5, 2021 15:40:52 GMT -5
shaxper, I've never read any of these books that you're covering here, yet I find myself loving your reviews of them, particularly from the historic perspective of what the different writers and editors were doing to Dick and Barbara. Truly the sign of a great thread if it can attract and keep the attention of someone with zero background with or affinity for the source material. That's extremely kind of you, my good man. Thanks much for the encouragement!
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Post by profh0011 on Dec 5, 2021 16:06:09 GMT -5
Maybe I'll just take that box of Batmans from this era out in the back yard and set 'em on fire after all... Definitely don't do that. You've got some of the best art ever done on Batman with Gene Colon, Don Newton, and Alfredo Alcala, and as soon as Len Wein becomes editor in a few months' time, the quality of storytelling increases immeasurably. In fact, Doug Moench's run, beginning about a year from now, is my favorite Batman run of all time. BUT this is a terrible era in terms of how it uses Dick and Babs, and that's the focus of this review thread, unfortunately. This is all just reminding me, that Gerry Conway had a WELL-DESERVED reputation.... as a really TERRIBLE writer.
I was so glad-- or I guess I should say relieved-- when he mostly dropped out of comics to focus on a career writing TV. It was a win-win situation. Not only was his TV work the best stuff he ever did, but comics fans no longer had to put up with his C***.
About 3 years ago I had a delightful experience one day over my home care client's house, when we were watching an episode of a cop show Conway had written. (In fact, his name was listed in the credits 3 times.) It was the single best thing I'd ever seen him do! Shockingly good, I'd say. As soon as I got home, I said so on Martin Pasko's FB page. And whatta ya know? About a half-hour later... I got a "like" on that comment... from Conway. I had no idea he was on Pasko's list. It MADE MY WHOLE DAY! --to be able to say something that nice about someone whose work I generally hated.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Dec 5, 2021 18:39:19 GMT -5
Definitely don't do that. You've got some of the best art ever done on Batman with Gene Colon, Don Newton, and Alfredo Alcala, and as soon as Len Wein becomes editor in a few months' time, the quality of storytelling increases immeasurably. In fact, Doug Moench's run, beginning about a year from now, is my favorite Batman run of all time. BUT this is a terrible era in terms of how it uses Dick and Babs, and that's the focus of this review thread, unfortunately. This is all just reminding me, that Gerry Conway had a WELL-DESERVED reputation.... as a really TERRIBLE writer. I was so glad-- or I guess I should say relieved-- when he mostly dropped out of comics to focus on a career writing TV. It was a win-win situation. Not only was his TV work the best stuff he ever did, but comics fans no longer had to put up with his C***. It might be more fair to say that Conway struggled with writing for deadlines. He would turn out some truly awesome stuff alongside utter crap that was clearly rushed. Once Wein takes over as editor, Conway starts making a much stronger effort and turns in some of my favorite Batman stories of all time (especially The Haunting of Boss Thorne and the death of The Squid), so don't be too quick to count him out.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Dec 5, 2021 20:23:45 GMT -5
Conway admits that he was frequently overextended and took on too much work. When he was grinding out work it ranged from pedestrian to dire.
When he cared about what he was doing he turned out some very good work.
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Post by shaxper on Dec 5, 2021 20:42:38 GMT -5
When he cared about what he was doing he turned out some very good work. And, in this case, a change of editor seemed to help him start caring more.
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Post by shaxper on Dec 5, 2021 22:55:51 GMT -5
Batman #350 (August 1982) "Nightmare in Crimson" Script: Gerry Conway; Paul Levitz Pencils: Gene Colan Inks: Tony DeZuniga Colors: Adrienne Roy Letters: Ben Oda Grade: n/a (only exploring Robin's role in this story) Well, Conway seems to have settled on depicting Dick as being Batman's impulsive inferior. This entire story is essentially about how Dick puts Bruce in jeopardy because Bruce trusts him. On another level, it's an allegory about a good kid dating the wrong girl, but then the vampirism is essentially an allegorical STD, so then the idea of Dick exposing Bruce to it is cringe-worthy, to say the least. Whatever the case, Conway wants you to know that Robin is weak, so while Batman is going to fight the vampiric infection to his very last, we never even see Dick struggle and then succumb. He wakes up confused, and then suddenly he's just in Dala's clutches. No internal conflict whatsoever: He is, at best, an inept means of furthering the plot and, at worst, the chief antagonist since Dala never could have accomplished all of this without his help. Once again, a GORGEOUS story, one I return to often when I'm looking for great Bronze-Age Batman. But, as a Robin story, it's incredibly disappointing. Only six issues earlier, Conway was writing the Dynamic Duo as equals, Dick even taking the lead, enduring the primary struggle, and coming out like a true hero. Well, we're long past that characterization now. I truly can't wait until Jason Todd enters the picture, freeing up Dick to become his own man in the Bat titles, as well as in the pages of the Titans.
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Post by shaxper on Dec 7, 2021 21:51:06 GMT -5
For what it's worth:
5 more reviews until Batgirl's solo feature is cancelled roughly 25 more reviews until Jason Todd replaces Dick Grayson
After that, this thread will accelerate through the years pretty quickly, as Barbara Gordon doesn't do very much until Crisis on Infinite Earths (and then only has six truly significant appearances after that), and Dick doesn't do all that much evolving beyond becoming Nightwing and occasionally mentoring his replacements.
At the very latest, I think I'll have this thread completed in 2024, but it could be as early as next year!
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Post by shaxper on Dec 11, 2021 15:58:47 GMT -5
Detective Comics #517 (August 1982) The first attempt to have the Batman and Detective Comics titles intertwine under editor Dick Giordano. Though both titles have been controlled by the same writer since Detective Comics returned to its original format post-Batman Family, each has functioned relatively independent of the other until now. But, as we know from the recent Statement of Ownership, 'Tec was still selling extremely poorly, so merging its continuity with that of the far better selling Batman title and thus compelling its readers to follow both titles was a logical move. This would appear to be a test run, as it will be several months before the two titles intertwine again. I wonder if the fact that the "Batman"logo far outshines the "Detective Comics" logo on the cover was intentional, designed to lure readers who were only picking up Batman at the time. But all of this is moot when discussing Robin and Batgirl, who are both losing the battle for presence in these books. Batman: "The Monster in the Mirror" Script: Gerry Conway; Paul Levitz Pencils: Gene Colan Inks: Tony DeZuniga Colors: Adrienne Roy Letters: Annette Kawecki Grade: n/a (only exploring Robin's role in this story) Almost exactly a decade before Doug Moench and Kelley Jones will give us Red Rain, we have an earlier (and, I would argue, superior) scenario in which Batman has become a vampire. As we're watching him strike Alfred and spiral out of control, I keep waiting for Dick to step in and save the day. And then I remember, "Whoops! Dick is the one who got Bruce into this situation." What a waste of Robin; this could have been an outstanding opportunity for him to shine. But no, Dick is being used as a plot device at this point, and nothing more. Heck, he first appears in the final page of this story, for exactly two panels, just to set up a cliffhanger for next issue: At this point, Dala, the one-shot villain, is being given more presence, characterization, and development than Robin, the kid who has been a part of this franchise since 1940. Such a damn waste. Really though, it helps build the argument that Dick needs to be freed of his obligations to this franchise. In the mid-1960s, the original Teen Titans played twice with the idea of losing Robin. By 1969, the Batman franchise had done the same. And, despite a big welcome back when Robin first returned to this franchise, he's been side-lined and mischaracterized for most stories since. Really, The New Teen Titans is the first home Dick Grayson has ever had where his status has never been in doubt. Replacing him as Robin in less than a year frees the Teen Wonder to finally and fully belong solely to a franchise that respects and actually wants to utilize him. Batgirl: "A Tale of Two Serpents!" Script: Cary Burkett Pencils: José Delbo Inks: Joe Giella Colors: Tom Ziuko Letters: Janice Chiang Grade: D- Cary Burkett's dumbest and final Batgirl story gets...well...dumber. Batgirl immediately figures out how to will away her snake tail, leaving exactly enough garment for her to swing around town in short-shorts for the rest of the issue: Burkett isn't too worried about the logistics of why her pants come back at all, let alone ripped below a certain point which wasn't where the snake tail began, but he at least takes unnecessary pains to explain why she still has boots: I was thrilled to see the return of Shamrock, Slugger, Poet, and Good Queen Bess last issue, four homeless friends who proved to Batman and the readers that the homeless could be a proud and independent people who Batman needed more than they needed him, but Burtkett seems to utterly miss the point here, depicting these four as if they truly have nothing better to do than help Batgirl with her problems: It's at least slightly cool to see snake lady versus snake lady at the climax: but, even though Batgirl wins (and really, Lady Viper was no trained fighter, so this should have been inevitable) Burkett once again needs to balance every great thing she does with a moment of incompetence, like, say, fleeing the scene without remembering to capture or in any way restrain the now-unconscious dangerous criminal. It's truly amazing that she can be this incompetent this far into her crime-fighting career. Shouldn't Batman have demanded she stop wearing the Bat-logo by now? Of course, José Delbo never fails to add his own brand of awful to these adventures: Is Bess talking to her boobs?And, of course, the final victory can't possibly be Batgirl's. For at least the third time since Burkett started writing these adventures, the bad guy just sort of undoes herself, Batgirl just watching cluelessly as it happens: Au revoir, Mr. Burkett. There was a time when your run was my favorite take on Batgirl, but what it's become over the past fifteen months has been inexcusable.
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Post by shaxper on Dec 11, 2021 23:26:26 GMT -5
New Teen Titans #22 (August 1982) "Ashes to Ashes!" Script: Marv Wolfman Pencils: George Pérez (breakdowns); Romeo Tanghal (finished art) Inks: Romeo Tanghal Colors: Adrienne Roy Letters: Ben Oda Grade: n/a (only exploring Robin's role in this story). Want my thoughts on this issue itself? You can check out that review here. While it's been a given almost from the start that Robin's depiction in New Teen Titans does not align with his depiction in the Batman franchise, we see the contrast most sharply here, in August of 1982. In Batman #350, the entire basis of the story is that Dick is weak-willed and gives in to Dala's influence immediately, without any sense of a struggle: Repeatedly throughout the story, we are reminded of how thoroughly under her influence Dick is and just how thoroughly he has jeopardized Bruce as a result. Meanwhile, in NTT #22, Wolfman and Perez take nearly an entire issue just to show us how much of a willful, disciplined bada$$ Dick can be when the entire team is down and he is the only remaining hope: ...even when he believes the rest of the team is dead and there is no hope of escape. And yet, Wolfman is careful to acknowledge Bruce's role as mentor and parent here, showing Dick truly concerned that he has let Bruce down by dying with his final thoughts: but there is no doubt here that he tried his damnedest and likely did at least as well as Bruce would have done in the same situation. Were Wolfman and Perez directly responding to what Conway was writing in the Batman titles? Probably not. Still, the contrast is remarkable.
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Post by shaxper on Dec 11, 2021 23:50:52 GMT -5
Batman #351 (September 1982) "What Stalks The Gotham Night?" Script: Gerry Conway Pencils: Gene Colan Inks: Tony DeZuniga Colors: Adrienne Roy Letters: Ben Oda Grade: n/a (only exploring Robin's role in this story) It's truly hard to tell what Conway's intentions are towards Dick Grayson at this point. He'd been brought back into the Batman titles in an effort to better align the content of the comic books with the licensed merchandise and, perhaps, with people's expectations for the franchise, but Conway certainly hasn't treated the character well, and his depiction of Dick in this issue just crosses lines. Dick is no longer simply weak-willed and not to be trusted; he's truly a monster in spirit as well as body: This is the moment that solidifies it. We see the shame, followed by Batman (under the exact same influence) proving that Dick's behavior is a choice and not an inevitable product of the curse inflicted upon them both: Conway later tempers this a bit, suggesting it wasn't a choice, but rather that Dick is more poisoned than Batman is: But then, even at best, Dick is a helpless victim who got himself into this mess and endangered Bruce in the process. The issue then wraps up with Bruce relatively easily stopping Dala, and the convenient priest assisting him immediately producing an antidote to the vampiric germ. It ends so abruptly that it's hard to tell if the story is over or not. If it is, Conway didn't even bother to show Dick being cured. As always, he is there to move the plot forward, but Conway isn't at all interested in exploring him as a character nor sympathetic figure.
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Post by shaxper on Mar 23, 2022 21:57:33 GMT -5
Detective Comics #518 (September 1982) "The Millionaire Contract" Script: Gerry Conway; Paul Levitz Pencils: Don Newton Inks: Bruce Patterson Colors: Adrienne Roy Letters: Ben Oda Grade: n/a (only exploring Robin's role in this story) Apparently, the multi-part Monk/Dalia Vampire storyline ran so long that the final pages of that story needed to be published here, even though it's almost entirely unrelated to the story that follows, in which The Human Target has assumed the role of Bruce Wayne while Boss Thorne is looking to kill him. Thus, the first few pages also give us a possible final answer to how Levitz and Conway want us to see Dick Grayson. Is he foolish, reckless, and rebellious, or was that just the influence of Dalia in the previous storyline? The initial answer seems to be that Dick is a good kid, after all. he is quick to regret everything he did while under Dalia's spell and wastes no time asserting his renewed confidence as a capable costumed crimefighter: It's just the right amount of playful sarcasm; confident without being cocky or disrespectful. "Hey," one might start to think. "It's finally the same Dick Grayson we've been reading in the pages of New Teen Titans!" Well, no. A few short pages later, we get this exchange, in which Dick is technically right, and his rage is somewhat understandable, but his behavior is that of a rebellious teen once again, and hardly the cool, calm leader we just watched bravely stare down death in the most recent issue of New Teen Titans. Then again, we've all been that independent 19 year old, out on their own, confidently figuring out their place in the world, who is inexplicably transformed back into an angsty and rebellious teen every time they return home. Maybe this is the same character after all. What would really help would be some introspection--a frame or two where Dick reflects on this--but this issue isn't really about him. Much like last time around, Dick is really there to service the plot. Last time, he was the bait needed to ensnare Batman in a horror story. This time, he is simple exposition, there to explain the problem and the solution before being forgotten and never once shown again in the issue. Sure enough, Bruce gets a tip and goes off as Batman, no question as to whether Robin should be brought along: It's frankly weird to continue to see Dick get such a prominent role in these stories WITHOUT actually getting to play the role of hero's sidekick. What the heck? For what it's worth, several letters this time include praise for the return of Robin to these pages: Whether or not it's yet been decided to replace Dick with a younger Robin, the response here might just as well serve as Levitz' justification for that decision. They're not moving backward, but they do feel Batman needs a Robin by his side. "He with Secrets Fears the Sound..." Script: Barbara Kesel Pencils: Trevor Von Eeden Inks: Trevor Von Eeden Colors: Jerry Serpe Letters: Milt Snapinn Grade: B Carey Burkett is out and Barbara Kesel is in..at least for the next two issues until the feature gets cancelled before she even gets the chance to prove herself. I know precious little about Barbara Kesel. Looking at her writing credits, it looks like DC used her almost entirely as a fill-in writer, Hawk and Dove and Who's Who being the only two places where she lasted more than four issues. A few years from now, we'll see DC making a concerted effort to feature women writers writing for female readers (Mindy Newell on Catwoman, Lois Lane, and Wonder Woman, and Sharon Wright on Black Canary immediately come to mind), but while this feels similar to those attempts, I guess Kesel was a few years too early. And, with such a short stint here, I'm not sure we'll get much of a sense of how good she was or wasn't before her time runs out. For what it's worth, I never cared for Newell nor Wright, but, then, I wasn't the target audience either. What I can tell you about Kesel's writing here is that she is definitely aiming for a more mature audience. Last issue, Burkett had Babs becoming a snake lady in order to fight a snake lady, few questions asked or answered. Here, we're dealing with corporate fraud and a crime of passion in-the-making. It's a welcome change for me, but I pity that one eight year old who was really digging this feature and found themselves in for a hell of a surprise with this issue. And yet, abrupt as the shift in tone is, Kesel and/or Levitz are very careful to acknowledge past continuity far more carefully than Burkett ever did with his own stories: At the same time, Kesel is working hard to redeem Batgirl from the ridiculous third-rate bumbling hero Burkett had turned her into, and that's immediately evident here: Kesel seems to have taken a very personal interest in sorting through this recent continuity and redeeming Barbara in the process. It's work she'll get a second crack at completing less than three years from now with the Batgirl Special, though that will prove to be its own spectacular train-wreck. The other notable change in this issue is Trevor Von Eedon replacing Jose Delbo on art. Say what you will about Delbo's work anywhere else, but this feature clearly wasn't one that was the recipient of his hard work and talent: So Von Eedon is a very welcome change, bringing a maturity to the look of this feature which matches what Kesel is writing: though I'll admit that he does make one unusual choice: In attempting to create a darker, more visually imposing Batgirl, Von Eedon tries depicting her from the point of view of a terrified informant, and it just...doesn't work: I'm wondering if Von Eedon was a big fan of Close Encounters of the Third Kind. I really would have liked more than one more issue to see where this new creative team goes. Curious that Levitz would make the decision to bring in a new creative team two issues before deciding to kill the feature and replace it with Joey Cavalieri on Green Arrow (incidentally one of the worst written features I've ever suffered through!). There's no way any kind of meaningful fan feedback or sales data could have trickled in that quickly.
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 23, 2022 22:44:59 GMT -5
Barbra Randall Kesel, I believe, was hired by Dick Giordano, after some interesting letters, critiquing stories. She worked more as an assistant editor and then full editor, than a writer, though she got her stuff in, where she could. She was also one of the architects of Dark Horse's Comics Greatest World superhero line. I always felt she did a good job, in an environment that didn't appreciate her work. The other major woman working at DC, at the time (aside from Jenette Kahn) was Karen Berger and she got to handle Alan Moore's stuff, which gave her a certain editorial strength, when it came to office politics. Her issues of Hawk & Dove are good stuff and her female characters are better crafted than those handled by the bulk of her male colleagues. It took a few years to recruit more women, though they were always butting heads with the boy's club. Marvel wasn't necessarily much better about it. Women fared better at the independents, where skill trumped politicking (in general, but not every company). Here is an older interview (back when she was writing for Crossgen) that covers a little bit of her comic origins and problems at DC. She was still married to Karl, at the time of the interview; but, they have since divorced. if memory serves, she was one of a group of women interviewed for an issue of Back Issue, a few years back. I seem to recall her story of running into a used book store, to escape a creep, which set her on the path to working at DC. I used to have a bootleg tape that included a video of the 50th Anniversary celebration, at DC, that included Randall, though I don't see her in the one posted on Youtube. I might have gotten hold of a copy with additional footage or I might be misremembering which video it was (a promotional piece, regardless).
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 23, 2022 23:08:51 GMT -5
A little about her origins....
There are more clips on Youtube
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Mar 24, 2022 2:17:48 GMT -5
A little about her origins.... There are more clips on Youtube I didn't realize that Barbara Kesel and Barbara Randall were one and the same. Thanks for this!
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