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Post by shaxper on Dec 30, 2022 0:52:39 GMT -5
Batman #368 (February 1984) "A Revenge of Rainbows" Script: Doug Moench Pencils: Don Newton Inks: Alfredo Alcala Colors: Adrienne Roy Letters: Ben Oda Grade: n/a (only tracking Dick Grayson's progression in this story) It's funny. As a kid, Marv Wolfman, George Perez, Doug Moench, and everyone else involved had me thoroughly convinced that the progression of Dick Grayson as a character was clearly charted and that any inability to see how the individual pieces connected was a failure on my part. Only now, in hindsight and with a scholarly eye, can I clearly see how badly executed this all was; great writers doing their best to connect the haphazardly scattered dots. Take, for example, this issue. On the surface, it's a simple and obligatory passing of the torch. Here's an abbreviated version of that scene for anyone who needs to see it again:     Seems like a tidy little wrap-up to both Dick's quest for independence and Jason's quest to become Bruce's next sidekick. Except for one minor problem: we just had this exchange between Dick and Jason two months back in New Teen Titans #37:  In a title that belabors every single internal struggle that its protagonists go through (often for months on end), how did the New Teen Titans not give us any clues that Dick was considering giving up Robin prior to this moment? Well, actually, they did, but, according to Mike's Amazing World, that issue hit stands at the exact same time as this one, so you had a 50/50 chance of understanding where this major life decision came from before seeing it come to fruition. Even then, this absolutely seems like the kind of decision Wolfman would have spent months showing Robin working through before finally reaching a decision. Heck, how many months did we waste on Robin deciding whether he was comfortable taking the law into his own hands (even when the answer seemed painfully obvious from the getgo)? Let's break it down differently: January thru February 1983: Status quo Dick Grayson. March thru July 1983: Dick is overwhelmed and upset. At various points, this is attributed to his being overcommitted and/or his realizing he will never measure up to Batman. June thru August 1983: Dick is largely absent, and it seems like he is purposefully being phased out of the title, likely due to licensing concerns (The New Teen Titans are a hot commodity for Warner, but Robin is already attached to the Batman license). September thru October 1983: Dick suddenly and inexplicably goes over the edge, feeling the need to avenge a vigilante that he knows is wrong, and pretty much damages his relationship with the entire team, almost as if someone was trying to build a case for him to quit/retire (again, Warner's licensing concerns). November 1983 thru January 1984: Dick is suddenly the best team leader ever--even better than Batman--and his bond with his teammates has never been stronger. His behavior over the past two months is almost entirely ignored (other than how he treated Starfire), and his general absenteeism in the three months before that is similarly never addressed. Warner now has a plan to keep Dick on the team without having Robin on the team (and it's playing out right now, in this issue). February 1984: Dick is suddenly ready to give up his identity as Robin without any previous hint that he was considering this (in fact, he said the exact opposite two months earlier). So yeah, the depictions of Dick Grayson over the past year have been inconsistent at best, likely reflecting the changing temperments of higher up Warner execs more than the creative vision of Marv Wolfman and George Perez. But, regardless of how we got here, Dick has settled on a track now, and the train is leaving the station. One final note I'd like to touch upon is this little detail at the end:  The easiest move would have been for Dick to already have a new name and identity ready to go at this point, but instead the decision is made to let him just be Dick Grayson for a while. I guess it's more realistic, but since Dick's newfound identity is wrapped up in being team leader for the Titans ( NTT #37 really dwelled on this), the decision also doesn't make much sense. I wonder if the true reason Dick doesn't have a new identity ready yet is that Wolfman and Perez didn't have a new identity ready yet. If all my surmizing about the involvement and changing temperments of Warner higher-ups has been correct, then the decision for Dick to pass the torch while remaining a Titan came out of left field at pretty much the last moment, with only two months' lead-time to prepare for this story and its companion piece in New Teen Titans #39. That didn't leave Wolfman and Perez with much time to totally redefine one of DC's most established legacy heroes. And (of course) neither the name nor costume they finally settled on ended up being all that good anyway. The name "Nightwing" at least sounded cool, even if it made no sense, nor did Dick's explanation of why he borrowed it from a forgotten Atom-Age adventure with Superman). Dick's Saturday Night Fever biker costume, on the other hand, ends up being pretty short on redeeming qualities:  Of course, we've still got five months before we get to all this. |
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Post by shaxper on Dec 30, 2022 1:34:17 GMT -5
The Pre-Crisis Dick Grayson Timelinepainfully extrapolated from all time references made in regard to Dick and the Titans between 1964 and February 1984Dick states in New Teen Titans #38 that, "I'd known Donna for almost eight years since before we'd formed that first group of Teen Titans." In addition to the gentle retcon here that Dick knew Donna before forming the Teen Titans (the original Teen Titans #53 clearly depicts Robin, Kid Flash, and Aqualad meeting Wonder Girl after having first teamed up in Brave and The Bold #54), this now establishes that less than eight years have passed between the founding of the original Titans and the events of New Teen Titans #38. Working from that math, Dick can't be older than nineteen if this is still the New TEEN Titans, meaning he was twelve or thirteen when The Titans first formed. He reaffirmed last issue that he became Robin when he was eight, so here's our working timetable for Dick's life as Robin: Age 8: Becomes Robin (as per New Teen Titans #37) Age 11 or 12: meets Wonder Girl for the first time (this issue indicates that almost eight years have passed between this moment and NTT #38, where they are almost certainly both at the very tail-end of their teens) Age 12 or 13: forms the Teen Titans Sometime between Age 13 and 16 (likely Age 15): The original Teen Titans disband ( Teen Titans #44 establishes that two years pass before the team reunites) Shortly thereafter (likely age 15 or 16): Dick leaves Gotham to attend Hudson University. It's odd that Dick's age discrepancy in contrast to other students on campus never ever gets mentioned, but it's also the only way this timetable works, and he presumably would have been smart enough to graduate high school a few years early. Sometime between Ages 15 and 18 (likely Age 17): The original Teen Titans reform. They then have at least eight adventures together before disbanding, and months go by before The New Teen Titans form (according to The New Teen Titans Insert Preview in DC Comics Presents #26) Sometime between Ages 15 and 18 (likely Age 18): Dick drops out of Hudson University and The New Teen Titans are formed. Dick seems to be at least 18 in those first stories, and they've now had over 40 adventures together, so it's unlikely he was 19 at the time. Additionally, Donna has always been presented as being about the same age, and she was living independently in those first issues and is now engaged to be married, also suggesting a minimum of 18-19 years of age. Age 18 or 19: Dick passes on the Robin costume to Jason Todd and becomes Nightwing shortly after. Age 19: Crisis on Infinite Earths happens and resets some aspects of Dick's life, as well as major aspects of the DCU as a whole (Dick has to be 19 because it's still Tales of the TEEN Titans at this point).
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Dec 30, 2022 8:03:58 GMT -5
New Teen Titans #39 (February 1984) "Crossroads" Script: Marv Wolfman (plot, script); George Pérez (plot) Pencils: George Pérez Inks: George Pérez Colors: Adrienne Roy Letters: Ben Oda Editing: Len Wein; Marv Wolfman; George Pérez Grade: n/a (only tracking Dick Grayson's progression in this story) Any CCFer who's been around long enough has heard my take on this issue. What spoke to me at the tender age of nine was the sense this book gave me that comics were stories of characters engaged in perpetual evolution. Robin was shifting into a new identity, and that move was born of multiple experiences, feelings, and decisions that would have been plainly apparent to me had I read issues #1-38 of this series in order. It was a myth, but it was a beautiful myth. In fact, the evidence suggests that the decision to have Dick transition into a new identity was made at the absolute last moment (likely two months prior to this issue going to print). That might help to explain one really odd phenomenon that holds true for Dick Grayson twice in 1984: every time he has a serious announcement to make, he has to awkwardly share the spotlight with someone else. In this issue, Kid Flash decides to quit the team immediately before Robin makes his major announcement:   And, five months from now, Dick's big moment in becoming Nightwing is hijacked by a second, unequivocally less important first appearance:  All of this takes place during The Judas Contract storyline and its prelude, unquestionably the strongest issues of New Teen Titans ever penciled and scripted. Pérez has clearly only been providing breakdowns for months now so that he could take more time on this first issue of that block of stories, turning in arguably the best art he has ever produced:  Similarly, this block of stories will arguably feature the densest, most carefully plotted scripting we'll ever get from Wolfman that was clearly planned in advance (especially as seeds for this story were planted more than a year earlier with the introduction of Terra). My point in all of this is that, if you look at Pérez's pencils in those first eighteen gorgeous pages of this issue, there is absolutely no indication that Dick is about to make a major announcement, nor that he's been having any significant thoughts/feelings leading up to such an announcement. It's only at the top of page 19 where the story takes an abrupt turn:  I would argue that it's a last minute addition. This was not what page 19 was originally supposed to be. Similarly, while Tales of the Teen Titans #44 certainly wasn't pencilled by this point, it was already plotted. So, rather than insert lulls in the action of this major storyline that will arguably mark the apex of both creators' careers, Wolfman and Pérez are forcing these last minute Robin moments into lulls that were already planned: Kid Flash was always going to quit in this issue, and Joey was always going to replace him five months later. Dick's announcements merely piggyback upon those moments. Not much else to say about this one other than to provide a condensed version of the biggest moment in Dick Grayson's history beyond his first appearance:    As I stated in the previous review, assuming I'm right about this having been a last minute decision, Dick doesn't know who he is going to become yet because Wolfman and Pérez haven't had time to decide who he is going to become yet. Welp, there it is. Not sure how much more Titans I'll be covering in this thread beyond #44, and maybe #50. That leaves us just a few brief Batgirl appearances to discuss before Crisis on Infinite Earths... |
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Post by shaxper on Dec 30, 2022 9:53:38 GMT -5
Detective Comics #533 (December 1983) "Look To The Mountaintop" Script: Doug Moench Pencils: Gene Colan Inks: Bob Smith Colors: Adrienne Roy Letters: Ben Oda Grade: n/a (only tracking Babs Gordon's progression in this story) We're jumping backwards in time two months, as I didn't want to interrupt my analysis of Dick's progression in this thread, but now that he's arrived at a good stopping point, let's get back to discussing Babs Gordon. We've seen a deliberate and systematic (seemingly editorially mandated) de-escalating of Babs Gordon's abilities and importance across numerous writers and title editors, beginning way back in Detective Comics #487 (January 1980). Once the lead hero in the Batman franchise's second best selling title, as well as a high power U.S. Senator, Babs was suddenly out of office, borderline incompetent as a hero, soon traumatized by a near-death experience to the point that every fight as Batgirl was a fight against her own self-doubt, and finally nothing more than a concerned caregiver to Commissioner Gordon in the Bat books once her own back-up feature was cancelled. She was permitted to suit up for one last hurrah in Detective Comics #526 as a sort of farewell to the old Batgirl and Robin team-ups (Dick Grayson was about to stop being Robin), but has continued on since that time as a plainclothed tool for exposition whenever Gordon gets any focus in the books, with no personality of her own. Here, Doug Moench seems to try to counter that. He certainly couldn't have foreseen the coming Crisis on Infinite Earths reset (nor everything that would happen to Babs Gordon after), but this is his attempt to give her one moment in the spotlight, receiving rich characterization and purpose, before sending her off into obscurity once the Commissioner recovers from his health issues and she is no longer needed as supporting cast. Moench seems to have only one imposition placed upon him with this story:  She can't suit up as Batgirl. I still don't really understand what this was all about. Early on, right before her de-powering, then editor Paul Levitz suggested in a letter column that Batgirl and Robin should never be perceived as more capable than Batman, but whereas Robin just got a little more helpless after that, Batgirl was soon stripped of everything, and that trend continued well past Levitz's tenure as editor. Sure, he moved up the ranks at DC and was a Vice President by this point, but was he really still checking in to make sure the writers were keeping Babs Gordon down? I just don't get it. Was there a marketing/licensing incentive for Warner to keep Batgirl out of her costume or something? I can't really see how that would play off. Anyway, Moench does his best to portray Babs as strong and independent, modelling this entire story after the famous scene in The Godfather where Michael first finds his inner strength to ultimately assume the role of head of the family (Moench often drew upon movies and music as inspiration for his stories). The only problem here is that, while Michael was a helpless innocent prior to this moment, Babs Gordon shouldn't be. Thus, moments like these might seem impressive for an ordinary citizen:  seem utterly insulting for Batgirl:  If this were an Elliot S. Maggin story, Babs would have worked out a solution quickly, then suited up and taken down the entire gang executing a hit on her father. Instead, she barely manages to get her father out of his room and into an elevator before Batman can patronize her unconscious body with this compliment:   Babs does eventually revive just in time to get the climactic moment to herself, the ultimate test of all the strength her father has encouraged her to cultivate over the years:  ...except that all she did was tackle an unarmed guy before he could get to his gun. Batman does all the rest. How is this a major accomplishment (or even a challenging feat) for a Batgirl who could, at one point, drive her bike through a glass window and then take out two armed thugs in one fluid movement, sommersaulting through the air?  from Batman Family #7 Intended or not, well meaning or not, this is sort of the final exit for the Pre-Crisis Babs Gordon. She will appear only one more time before Crisis on Infinite Earths (Detective Comics #546), in which she will show up in exactly three panels without being given a single line of dialogue.  from Detective comics #546Au revoir, Babs Gordon. You deserved better. |
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Post by shaxper on Dec 30, 2022 13:31:42 GMT -5
New Teen Titans #40 (March 1984) "Lifeblood!" Script: Marv Wolfman (plot, script); George Pérez (plot) Pencils: George Pérez Inks: Romeo Tanghal; George Pérez Colors: Adrienne Roy Letters: Bob Lappan Grade: n/a (only tracking Dick Grayson's progression in this story) There's really only one aspect of this issue that is relevant to the charting of Dick Grayson's evolution in comics. On the last two pages of this thread, I've repeatedly argued that: 1. Warner licensing wanted Robin off the New Teen Titans so that its New Teen Titans licenses and Batman licenses didn't overlap. 2. At least between NTT issues #29 and 36, Dick was being set up to quit the team: first due to angst and self-doubt, and later by becoming an antihero who alienated his teammates by asking them to cross the line. 3. At the last moment, someone changed someone's mind, and a plan was made to have Dick transfer the Robin identity to Jason Todd while going on to become a totally new hero, thereby alleviating licensing concerns while keeping Dick on the team. 4. This led to last minute changes to The Judas Contract, most clearly the additions of Dick deciding to give up being Robin and Dick becoming Nightwing. (want to see how I arrived at these conclusions? Check out the last two pages. Seems silly to write it all again!) Anyway, I'd argue that the plot of this issue strongly supports these assertions. If Wolfman and Pérez had to do last minute rewrites to keep Dick around, it's reasonable to assume they didn't change more then they had to. So look at how this issue plays out: Wondergirl is leading the Titans,  and Dick is sidelined, definitely not a part of the team just in time for their biggest, most anticipated storyline, and also in a situation that could arguably lead to his death, retirement, or conversion to a villain.  Who can say what the original plans were (assuming I'm right and there were different original plans), but if Dick's transition wasn't a last minute decision, and if Wolfman and Perez had been planning and working towards this storyline for so long now, would they really choose to sideline Dick for most of The Judas Contract and for the issues leading up to it? It doesn't make sense. Honestly, I myself struggle to believe that DC was, at one point, willing to get rid of Dick Grayson, but there's certainly a lot of evidence to support it, and had The Judas Contract originally been written to have Dick off of the team, it still would have played out largely like this, a few panels of the Titans speaking to Dick while in their secret identities aside. |
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Post by shaxper on Dec 30, 2022 14:01:49 GMT -5
Tales of the Teen Titans #44 (July 1984) *Note: New Teen Titans became Tales of the Teen Titans as of issue #41"The Judas Contract Book 3: There Shall Come a Titan" Script: Marv Wolfman (plot, script); George Pérez (plot) Pencils: George Pérez Inks: Dick Giordano; Mike DeCarlo Colors: Adrienne Roy Letters: Todd Klein Grade: n/a (only tracking Dick Grayson's progression in this story) Interesting. "There Shall Come a Titan;" not two Titans. But then, if I've been right in all my arguing here, this was originally only supposed to have been Jericho's first appearance, Nightwing's having been inserted before any pages were drawn, but after the plotting had already been done. This then raises the question of who Joseph and his mom would have been talking to for this and the last issue before Joseph suited up and went off to rescue the Titans, proving his worthiness to the team.  Clearly, Adeline Wilson needed someone to explain this all to so that we would get both Deathstroke and Joseph's backstories in time for Joseph to take off for the climactic battle. Would Dick still be the other party in this scene, involved on the sidelines, sort of the Jason Bard of the Titans franchise from this point forward? Would Adeline have just been prattling on to Joseph about things he already knew for the sake of the reader? Or perhaps Terry Long or Sarah Simms would have played the part of concerned listener. Who can say? Regardless, here's the big moment in all its glory, even if what Wolfman and Perez managed to come up with after five months of scrambling for a codename and costume didn't turn out all that impressive:   To quote myself in my review of Batman #368: And (of course) neither the name nor costume they finally settled on ended up being all that good anyway. The name "Nightwing" at least sounded cool, even if it made no sense, nor did Dick's explanation of why he borrowed it from a forgotten Atom-Age adventure with Superman). Dick's Saturday Night Fever biker costume, on the other hand, ends up being pretty short on redeeming qualities It's also interesting that Dick's anger and alienating of the rest of the team between New Teen Titans Annual #2 and New Teen Titans #36 gets acknowledged here for the first time, even if Dick doesn't try to explain any of it. He did bad stuff; he's better now. Okay, we'll go with that. And, if you're curious why Jericho's first appearance gets crammed in right up against Nightwing's, you may want to check out my exploration of the factors causing this in my review of New Teen Titans #38. I just know I've set myself up, at this point, for Marv Wolfman to stop in and tell me I'm wrong about all of this stuff I've been working painstakingly to make sense of... |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Dec 30, 2022 14:29:15 GMT -5
Other versions of Dick Grayson in 1984It's worth noting that, while Dick Grayson was on his way to a new destiny in the core DC books in 1984, there were still plenty of ways to get classic Dick Grayson Robin off the spinner racks at this time. Infinity Inc. launches in December of '83, including an Earth 2 Dick Grayson who has assumed Batman's mantle, Super Powers launches in April, offering a classic, non-continuity Dick Grayson Robin who fights faithfully alongside Batman, and May brings us The Best of DC #51, an all Batman Family issue, reprinting a classic team-up of Batgirl and Robin from Batman Family #13. None of these projects were specifically Dick Grayson-oriented, and so I doubt the timing of these books being available just as Dick was transitioning out of his Robin identity was intended. However, it's still interesting to note that Dick Grayson wasn't really being fully separated from his role as Robin; he was just being separated from it in terms of continuity and New Teens Titans licensing.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Dec 30, 2022 14:54:36 GMT -5
Next up, Crisis on Infinite Earths...
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Post by zaku on Dec 30, 2022 20:08:15 GMT -5
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Dec 30, 2022 20:49:25 GMT -5
Yeah, it made more sense in the 1940s (when the foster care system was far more cruel and unregulated) than in 1983. Still, it would take some heavy condensing of Batman and Robin's timeline to have him join at, say, age twelve and then found the Teen Titans almost immediately after. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Dec 30, 2022 21:00:35 GMT -5
Wow, Shax, you've been busy! Just a few things I wanted to comment on. 1) I guess I never thought about this before, but DC time stamped their universe there..telling us 11-ish years have past in the DCU in 43-ish years real time. That's crazy! I've always pictured the Titans as 21-22 at the time of Judas Contract (other than Gar, of course, he's a couple years younger). I think that makes alot more sense than Dick starting as Robin at 8... lets call it 11 instead  . 2) I suspect you're right about the reasons for Dick's inconsistency in character, but you could also look at it another way.. he's was a teenager under enormous stress... my teenagers, under FAR less stress, are just as moody and unpredictable at times, maybe Wolfman was doing that on purpose? I mean, that's definitely how I read it when I wasn't analyzing anyway. 3) that Titans/Outsiders crossover was when I knew that Dick Grayson was the going to at some point be the leader of the DCU's heroes.. and sooner rather than later. Different writers come close to it and then back off time and again, but I think now, finally, it's pretty clear. Jon Kent going to him to train was the clincher, if you ask me . 4) I REALLY want to know what alternate names they came up with.. and that costume? that is SO bad. (hopefully on purpose) |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Dec 30, 2022 23:16:12 GMT -5
Wow, Shax, you've been busy! Heheh. I had a few goals to meet by the end of the year. I'm also really excited to finally bring this thread to a close. I figure we're probably about fifteen to twenty reviews away at this point. I'm pretty sure I recall reading an interview with Wolfman where he admitted envisioning the Titans as being in their twenties, but he was forced to stick with the trademarked name TEEN Titans. Everything makes a lot more sense if they're allowed to be in their mid to late twenties, especially Donna being engaged to a divorced college professor! Oh, you can absolutely see it that way. But, when it first starts, a clear reason is attached to it. Then, suddenly, the reason is removed and the mood swings get even wilder until they aren't even swinging anymore -- Dick is just stuck in a very bad direction for a few months' time (which he conveniently pops out of without explanation once the stage is being set for his transition). Add to this his suspicious absence from a handful of issues at this point and it really seems like something more was going on, especially right on the cusp of his transitioning out of the Robin identity. I truly believe that one of DC's biggest problems is that it has a fully established second generation of heroes ready to take over, but no one wants the first generation to retire. Absolutely seconded! Why would it be on purpose?? |
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Post by zaku on Dec 31, 2022 4:45:48 GMT -5
Yeah, it made more sense in the 1940s (when the foster care system was far more cruel and unregulated) than in 1983. Still, it would take some heavy condensing of Batman and Robin's timeline to have him join at, say, age twelve and then found the Teen Titans almost immediately after. Yeah, it makes sense. I don't know if it's something which happened in the pre-Crisis era too, but often during post-Crisis people told Batman that putting kids in danger by putting them in a colorful costume and making them fight crazy killers was reckless. Of course he couldn't tell the truth ("In the 1930s this was better than the other alternatives") so these conversations always ended in an awkward silence from the Caped Crusader. |
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Post by shaxper on Dec 31, 2022 8:26:48 GMT -5
Of course he couldn't tell the truth ("In the 1930s this was better than the other alternatives") so these conversations always ended in an awkward silence from the Caped Crusader. This was the same logic that governed the Jason Todd retcon. An(other) acrobat kid with dead parents could end up okay going through the foster system of the 1980s, but a kid boosting tires in crime alley was headed for serious danger without a Batman to guide him. Then they gave us Tim Drake, a totally well-adjusted kid with two living and affluent parents. It made no sense, so they had to get conveniently killed (or nearly killed) in order to somehow justify Tim's becoming Robin, and that STILL didn't really explain why it was a good idea for Tim to become Robin. |
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Post by zaku on Dec 31, 2022 10:02:34 GMT -5
Of course he couldn't tell the truth ("In the 1930s this was better than the other alternatives") so these conversations always ended in an awkward silence from the Caped Crusader. This was the same logic that governed the Jason Todd retcon. An(other) acrobat kid with dead parents could end up okay going through the foster system of the 1980s, but a kid boosting tires in crime alley was headed for serious danger without a Batman to guide him. Then they gave us Tim Drake, a totally well-adjusted kid with two living and affluent parents. It made no sense, so they had to get conveniently killed (or nearly killed) in order to somehow justify Tim's becoming Robin, and that STILL didn't really explain why it was a good idea for Tim to become Robin. Yep! Incidentally, googling Robin's age pre-Crisis, I saw that he has a fairly large role in Untold Legends of The Batman. Did you review it and I missed it?  |
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