shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jan 11, 2023 7:25:14 GMT -5
Once again, you beat me to it. Now I really do enjoy picking on Byrne, but not because I hold him responsible for the reboot. Uh, I just realized that I wrote a post full of errors (I was sleepy and tired) you are too kind... (^^) I swear I didn't even notice. I'm an English teacher, and I still somehow end up having to edit my reviews fifteen times after posting them because of errors I've missed!
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Post by zaku on Jan 11, 2023 7:38:03 GMT -5
Uh, I just realized that I wrote a post full of errors (I was sleepy and tired) you are too kind... (^^) I swear I didn't even notice. I'm an English teacher, and I still somehow end up having to edit my reviews fifteen times after posting them because of errors I've missed! As you know, I'm not a native English speaker and I don't have many opportunities to practice. If you ever see any grammatical errors in my posts, please don't hesitate to point them out!
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,813
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Post by shaxper on Jan 11, 2023 8:01:58 GMT -5
I swear I didn't even notice. I'm an English teacher, and I still somehow end up having to edit my reviews fifteen times after posting them because of errors I've missed! As you know, I'm not a native English speaker and I don't have many opportunities to practice. If you ever see any grammatical errors in my posts, please don't hesitate to point them out! I completely forgot that you are not a native speaker. As someone who can barely speak a second language, I'm extremely impressed by the fluidity of your English. And, as an English teacher, I'm a firm believer that - once you're out of the classroom, so long as the meaning is clear - it's obnoxious to correct someone's writing. Please don't worry about being scrutinized here! Hey, that rhymed.
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Post by tarkintino on Jan 11, 2023 8:28:33 GMT -5
While I can agree the Post-Crisis DC Universe wasn't managed in the best possibile way, there were characters stuck in a creative swamp who could be saved only by a total reboot (like Superman and Wonder Woman). Perhaps COIE wasn't the best possible solution but beat the alternatives Wonder Woman changing again city, job and another version of Steve Trevor or Lex Luthor wanting to destroy the world because he suffered of early baldness. That's my point / concern; until COIE, much of DC was not a "universe", but was as random as comedy strips from the 40s--things just "happened" with no structure or continuity, and the creatives just piled tons of earth on that seldom-creative, barely coherent grave. About post-COIE, Wolfman & Perez created the perfect structure and guidebook for DC going forward with the History of the D.C. Universe miniseries, but--as we all know--it was followed in sporadic fashion at no fault of the COIE creators. Wolfman and Perez brought long, desperately-needed sense and clarity to DC's creations, but it appeared DC always had some inherent need to follow great, landmark work with acts of creative bankruptcy, such as a strong, early Golden Age start, followed by the childish antics seen in too many late Golden Age superhero books. In other words, if something is great, do not build on it, but ram it into a grave and pile the dirt on.
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Post by zaku on Jan 11, 2023 10:13:03 GMT -5
While I can agree the Post-Crisis DC Universe wasn't managed in the best possibile way, there were characters stuck in a creative swamp who could be saved only by a total reboot (like Superman and Wonder Woman). Perhaps COIE wasn't the best possible solution but beat the alternatives Wonder Woman changing again city, job and another version of Steve Trevor or Lex Luthor wanting to destroy the world because he suffered of early baldness. That's my point / concern; until COIE, much of DC was not a "universe", but was as random as comedy strips from the 40s--things just "happened" with no structure or continuity, and the creatives just piled tons of earth on that seldom-creative, barely coherent grave. About post-COIE, Wolfman & Perez created the perfect structure and guidebook for DC going forward with the History of the D.C. Universe miniseries, but--as we all know--it was followed in sporadic fashion at no fault of the COIE creators. Wolfman and Perez brought long, desperately-needed sense and clarity to DC's creations, but it appeared DC always had some inherent need to follow great, landmark work with acts of creative bankruptcy, such as a strong, early Golden Age start, followed by the childish antics seen in too many late Golden Age superhero books. In other words, if something is great, do not build on it, but ram it into a grave and pile the dirt on. This^^ And I don't want to derail the thread any further or to sound like a broken record, but this was in continuity until the very last story before the rebootBut even if one were to pretend that this or that particular episode never happened, the fact remains that the character was a misogynistic jerk who enjoyed making a woman question her sanity just because she was right. People focus on this or that COIE-changed continuity minutia, but really the biggest change in characters like Superman or Wonder Woman was, well, to create new characters fit for a modern age. And that just couldn't be had with small relaunches or the like as they had already tried (unsuccessfully). Here someone said that Wonder Woman had (before Crisis) at least 5 new starting points, new status quo, new supporting characters etc. Did it do you any good?
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Post by franzwesten on Jan 11, 2023 11:03:13 GMT -5
I don't have problems with stuff like that being "in continuity". In the end, readers were supposed to stick around for 5 years and then leave the title (in the old days). So repetition and various questions are not that important and a strong editor could just prevent the "problematic" stuff from ever reappearing. Of course, now in the age of 50 year old comic book readers and internet stuff like that would never go away. But in 1987?!
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Post by zaku on Jan 11, 2023 11:11:38 GMT -5
I don't have problems with stuff like that being "in continuity". In the end, readers were supposed to stick around for 5 years and then leave the title (in the old days). So repetition and various questions are not that important and a strong editor could just prevent the "problematic" stuff from ever reappearing. Of course, now in the age of 50 year old comic book readers and internet stuff like that would never go away. But in 1987?! We've had this discussion before and many have the same opinion as you. But in my opinion, the point is not this or that problematic event. The point is the character itself. If you have to write it to such an extent that it becomes so different from before, you might as well reboot it. Superman gaslighting Lois, constantly lying to her, and making her think she's crazy just because she believes he's Clark Kent is such an integral component to the character that you can't just pretend he doesn't exist. The very essence of the pre-Crisis Superman is an arrogant liar. At that point you should a) show that Superman is a decent person b) retroactively erasing virtually almost all of his history So a new character with a new continuity. What's the difference with a reboot?
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Post by franzwesten on Jan 11, 2023 11:19:21 GMT -5
But characterizations have always varied. With many different authors this is not avoidable. We see how different Batman was in early post-crisis days. In the 70s, Bob Haney's take on Batman was very different from let's say Frank Robbin's. Moench/Conway's pre-crisis Batman very different from Barr's.
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Post by franzwesten on Jan 11, 2023 11:20:35 GMT -5
I don't have problems with stuff like that being "in continuity". In the end, readers were supposed to stick around for 5 years and then leave the title (in the old days). So repetition and various questions are not that important and a strong editor could just prevent the "problematic" stuff from ever reappearing. Of course, now in the age of 50 year old comic book readers and internet stuff like that would never go away. But in 1987?! We've had this discussion before and many have the same opinion as you. But in my opinion, the point is not this or that problematic event. The point is the character itself. If you have to write it to such an extent that it becomes so different from before, you might as well reboot it. Superman gaslighting Lois, constantly lying to her, and making her think she's crazy just because she believes he's Clark Kent is such an integral component to the character that you can't just pretend he doesn't exist. The very essence of the pre-Crisis Superman is an arrogant liar. At that point you should a) show that Superman is a decent person b) retroactively erasing virtually almost all of his history So a new character with a new continuity. What's the difference with a reboot? But back in those days, Lois lane was essentially a villain. She was trying to sabotage Superman.
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shaxper
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Posts: 22,813
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Post by shaxper on Jan 11, 2023 11:47:33 GMT -5
I don't have problems with stuff like that being "in continuity". In the end, readers were supposed to stick around for 5 years and then leave the title (in the old days). So repetition and various questions are not that important and a strong editor could just prevent the "problematic" stuff from ever reappearing. Of course, now in the age of 50 year old comic book readers and internet stuff like that would never go away. But in 1987?! We've had this discussion before and many have the same opinion as you. But in my opinion, the point is not this or that problematic event. The point is the character itself. If you have to write it to such an extent that it becomes so different from before, you might as well reboot it. Superman gaslighting Lois, constantly lying to her, and making her think she's crazy just because she believes he's Clark Kent is such an integral component to the character that you can't just pretend he doesn't exist. The very essence of the pre-Crisis Superman is an arrogant liar. At that point you should a) show that Superman is a decent person b) retroactively erasing virtually almost all of his history So a new character with a new continuity. What's the difference with a reboot? I really think the history of approaches to continuity goes a little like this: 1930s and 1940s: Even yesterday didn't count. Nor does the second story at the back of this book. Just enjoy a little more time with your character, and maybe we'll bring the villain back and reference this story again if you like them enough. 1950s: Some things count. Recurring villains and allies really excite the reader, so past adventures get referenced from time to time. 1960s: Depends entirely on who's editing. 1970s: Okay, everything before the 1970s kind of happened, but let's reference it all as little as possible. Comics have grown up, and those earlier stories are embarrassing. 1980s: EVERYTHING happened unless you reboot the universe. 1990s and 2000s: Okay, this happened, but this didn't, and this was out of continuity until it was brought back in by this event, but that event also removed this other thing from continuity. Confused? Just wait two months for the next soft reboot. 2010s and 2020s: Even if it was out of continuity, we're going to bring it back for nostalgia's sake. We're dealing with 80+ years of continuity for characters who are supposed to be in their twenties. There is no way to make it work without regular hard reboots, but we're also selling to older fans who remember and miss those pre-reboot stories, so those stories have to eventually reenter the fold anyway. There just isn't a right way to do this. Comic book characters and universes were not written to last forever.
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Post by franzwesten on Jan 11, 2023 13:01:24 GMT -5
In the 40s there was the Two-Face/Harvey Kent act, so there was some continuity (even so far with Harvey being healed and going back to leading a normal life). Obviously in this case it was the writers wanting to further developing something. But of course, exception.
Main problem is obviously the "aging" of characters. Theoretically, Batman was supposed to be eternally 29 but with Dick Grayson/Jason Todd getting older, this does not make sense at some point (Robin suddenly aged in "One Bullet Too Many", from child to teenager?). In Disney comics they did not age. But I can understand the desire of fanboys to have their own private "daily soap" they can discuss about.
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shaxper
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Posts: 22,813
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Post by shaxper on Jan 11, 2023 13:20:41 GMT -5
Main problem is obviously the "aging" of characters. Theoretically, Batman was supposed to be eternally 29 but with Dick Grayson/Jason Todd getting older, this does not make sense at some point (Robin suddenly aged in "One Bullet Too Many", from child to teenager?). In Disney comics they did not age. But I can understand the desire of fanboys to have their own private "daily soap" they can discuss about. Well there is no continuity in the Disney universe unless you're talking Carl Barks and Don Rosa. I can't tell you how many times Donald and the triplets met the Loch Ness monster for the first time by this point. I think we're more relaxed about Disney comics, though, because (unfortunately) they are taken less seriously. I've heard that's begun to change in Europe over the past few decades, but not in the US.
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Post by franzwesten on Jan 11, 2023 13:25:27 GMT -5
In Disney comics countries often also have their own continuity, e.g. the Phantom Blot in Germany is sometimes (and sometimes not) some criminal called "Plattnase" (flat nose) in disguise, truly weird DC produced Superman specific in-continuity comics for Germany because he sold so well there (some never published in English).
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shaxper
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Posts: 22,813
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Post by shaxper on Jan 11, 2023 13:47:07 GMT -5
In Disney comics countries often also have their own continuity, e.g. the Phantom Blot in Germany is sometimes (and sometimes not) some criminal called "Plattnase" (flat nose) in disguise, truly weird Fascinating to know! I love Disney comics, but I've only ever experienced those that have been translated into English, so it all seems like a continuity jumble to me. My favorite Disney creator is Casty, but the vast majority of his work has never been translated into English.
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Post by franzwesten on Jan 11, 2023 14:35:09 GMT -5
In Disney comics countries often also have their own continuity, e.g. the Phantom Blot in Germany is sometimes (and sometimes not) some criminal called "Plattnase" (flat nose) in disguise, truly weird Fascinating to know! I love Disney comics, but I've only ever experienced those that have been translated into English, so it all seems like a continuity jumble to me. My favorite Disney creator is Casty, but the vast majority of his work has never been translated into English. German translations of Disney comics are very interesting, as the language used there has influenced even the day-to-day language (Mickey Mouse magazine sells a lot each week!). They are also more "free" and more "literary" as they also often quote or make references to famous works like Schiller, Goethe...
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