shaxper
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Post by shaxper on May 2, 2023 12:20:05 GMT -5
Batman: The Killing Joke (July 1988)  Script: Alan Moore Pencils: Brian Bolland Inks: Brian Bolland Colors: John Higgins Letters: Richard Starkings Grade: n/a (discussing in terms of what it did to Barbara Gordon, not its artistic merits). "...I didn't really have any say in how dark the story was going to be. I was just going to do my best to draw it the way he wrote it. So I guess I was a bit concerned." - Brian Bolland (1)"It was probably one of the areas where they should’ve reined me in, but they didn’t." - Alan Moore (2)"Cripple the bitch!" - Len Wein (2)(3)A lot has changed in the ten plus years since I last reviewed The Killing Joke, and, in that time, there seems to have been a fundamental shift in how that work is percieved. Where as it once regularly topped people's lists of greatest comic book works, it's generally looked upon more shamefully in a post #metoo world. The work still has its defenders, but it takes quite a bit of googling to find a write-up that doesn't unequivocally condemn the work. Even its author has few kind words to say about it, recently stating, "I've been told the Joker film wouldn't exist without my Joker story, but three months after I'd written that I was disowning it, it was far too violent." (4)And yet, the critics of TKJ, appropriately raging at the senseless violation of an otherwise totally under-utilized, under-explored female character in order to drive the plot for a male hero, still manage to miss the true tragedy of this work. Having browsed dozens of write-ups on TKJ and interviews with Moore and Bolland, what continues to fascinate me is that the entire percieved tragedy is that it was done to a woman, and so violently and senselessly. What never ever seems to make its way into the conversation, though, is who this was done to. To quote Len Wein in an apology offered for his "cripple the bitch" comment, "I have always regretted making that comment. I was a good deal younger at the time, and it was meant ironically. And, no, the decision was not made lightly. When Alan suggested it, I told him I’d have to discuss it with then-publisher Jenette Kahn and get back to him. We had a lengthy discussion, decided it was something that had newer been done before to a major character, and agreed to let Alan go ahead. I called him back, made the now-regretable comment, and we want ahead. I still think crippling Barbara was a good idea. I thought she was a much more interesting character as Oracle than she ever was as Batgirl." (3)The one thing both critics and champions of this work seem to agree upon is that Batgirl, herself, wasn't anyone particularly important, and that, while her paralysis may have been perverse and indicative of problematic attitudes in our society, losing Batgirl, herself, was no big deal. While Alan Moore has given many interviews where he touches upon his regret over The Killing Joke in recent years, he never once mentions "Batgirl," nor "Barbara" nor "Babs" Gordon. Neither does Brian Bolland. They still don't seem to perceive her removal as a hero as being problematic, and even the most rabid of critics railing against the work tend to focus on Barbara Gordon as a sort of everywoman, missing the idea that her character wasn't considered worthwhile enough to be retired with dignity. I sat down and read The Killing Joke today for the first time in decades, and I actually found my eyes tearing and lips trembling. I'd first read this as a kid; a nine year old KID. There were no age restrictions placed on this thing, and it was selling like hot cakes in the wake of the 1989 Batman film, a film which brought adolescents in droves to local comic shops to read everything Batman they could get their hands on. My best friend actually memorized The Joker's song and made up his own tune to it:  The horrific violence towards Barbara Gordon was normalized for us; we were too young to understand how wrong this was. And we were also too young to process the loss that it represented. For us, Babs Gordon had always been paralyzed and always would be; it was an inevitability introduced to us in our very first months getting into comics. So it's only now, having made my way through her entire history in this thread, that I was finally able to experience this work as being the death of Batgirl. A cruel, undignified, unceremonious death in which Babs Gordon gets exactly one page as a character before becoming a senseless victim:  a page in which she has nothing better to do than dote on her father, serve him hot cholocate, and answer the door for him. A page in which she exhibits no personality whatsoever. It takes her twice as long to get shot:    From then on, the story is all about what her paralyzis and implied rape means to Jim Gordon and to Batman, never what it does to Barbara as a character herself. She does get this one chance to emotionally process the experience,  but she uses it to express concern for her father at the hands of The Joker instead of doing anything to shine the spotlight on her own far darker plight:  This story never gave a damn about Barbara. She is a plot point and shock value; nothing more. In a 2021 interview, Brian Bolland even points out how the cover itself actively works to ignore Barbara Gordons' feelings and experiences. In his words, "Funny enough, I always think the most disturbing scene was the cover because the cover is the moment when the very worst thing in the story is taking place. You're seeing it from the other direction. You're looking at something that is now very familiar and iconic and all that; a bit of fun really. But, when you think about the story, you think, 'Hang on a minute; that's the moment where we probably go a little too far.'" (1)The cover, itself, is a celebration of Barbara's rape, and it goes so far to ignore her thoughts/feelings/very identity in that moment as to point the camera 180 degrees in the other direction. This isn't just about a disturbing celebration of mysogynistic violence; it's like if DC had broken Batman's spine off camera, never had him get better, and never bothered to even explore what it meant to him on an emotional level after. Bye bye. Who the hell's going to miss you? I guess it's a testament to Paul Levitz and Len Wein's ability to knock Babs Gordon down from the lead role in DC's top-selling Bat title circa 1978 to near-total obscurity a decade later where something like this could happen without anyone batting an eye. I guess I'm one of the few people reading this story who would have understood that the Babs Gordon who was once pulling stunts like this:  from Batman Family #7 (1976)or this:  from Detective Comics #494 (1980wouldn't freeze with fear and stand helplessly when someone points a gun at her. I guess I'm one of the few who understands how truly dead Batgirl already was before the bullet even left the barrel. And (of course), in the words of Barbara Kesel: "...it’s still creepy that DC women seem to stay damaged and dead while the men… sigh." (5). Batman gets better, Jason Todd gets better, but Babs is done for until the next company-wide reset occurs twenty-three years later. Important Details:1. Though not originally intended to be in-continuity (check out that retro Batmobile, for example):  Barbara Gordon is paralyzed and then either raped or at least sexually assaulted by the Joker, and this carries over into regular continuity, first getting acknowledged next month in Batman #426. Minor Details:1. Moore certainly worked hard to make sure there would be no mistaking that Babs Gordon would never walk again.  2. As if Batgirl couldn't get further de-powered after being stripped of her mentor in Detective Comics #485 (when Kathy Kane is senselessly murdered off panel for no apparent reason), stripped of her career as a congresswoman off-panel between Detective Comics #487 and #488, stripped of her memories of Batman and Robin's secret identities (she ends up figuring them out again MUCH later on) in Detective Comics #489, stripped of her independence, now living back home with her father for some reason in Detective Comics #490, stripped of her confidence as a crime-fighter after Cormorant nearly kills her in Detective Comics #491, and stripped of her second career as director of a research thinktank in order to be common librarian last week in Batgirl Special #1, she apparently couldn't even keep down that job and is now an "ex-librarian" presumably living with her dad once again in this story: Of course, once again, how much of this was ever intended to count towards continuity? 2. The original panels where The Joker's photos of Babs are displayed were more graphic and even more suggestive of rape. Bolland was ordered to redraw the central photo only, though the entire page is disturbingly sexual. Here is the original page (NSFW): So, there you have it: the unceremonious end of Batgirl for more than two decades. I consider this the climax of this review thread and will wrap up with a few reviews charting the death of Jason Todd and rise of Oracle before bringing this all to a close. Of course, there's so much more I could go on to cover --Knightfall, Prodigal, Tim Drake, Stephanie Brown, and Cassandra Cain, to name just a few-- but this is where my childhood ends, as well as any remaining scraps of the Bronze Age Batman family, so it's where I will choose to end too. (1) Dollar Bin Bandits (2021, October 20). Comic book creator interviews: Brian Bolland. Dollar Bin Bandits. podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/brian-bolland/id1576289731?i=1000539162094 (2) Talk To Alan Moore! (2004, January). Wizard: The Comics Magazine, (147), 61–64. (3) RobGronowski’sPartyBusDriver. (2016, April 27). Midweek Trivia. Observation Deck. web.archive.org/web/20191104215837/https://observationdeck.kinja.com/midweek-trivia-1773399048 (4) Drum, N. (2020, October 10). Alan Moore Calls Out The Killing Joke, Says Adam West is the Best Version of Batman. Comicbook. comicbook.com/movies/news/alan-moore-the-killing-joke-adam-west-best-batman/ (5) DC Women Kicking Ass. (2011, May 26). A chat with former Batgirl writer Barbara Randall Kesel: "I just wanted to read stories where the women didn't embarrass me". Tumblr. Retrieved April 29, 2023, from dcwomenkickingass.tumblr.com/post/5871466489/brkinterview |
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Post by zaku on May 2, 2023 14:26:24 GMT -5
Batman: The Killing Joke (July 1988) Script: Alan Moore Pencils: Brian Bolland Inks: Brian Bolland Colors: John Higgins Letters: Richard Starkings Grade: n/a (discussing in terms of what it did to Barbara Gordon, not its artistic merits). "...I didn't really have any say in how dark the story was going to be. I was just going to do my best to draw it the way he wrote it. So I guess I was a bit concerned." - Brian Bolland (1)"It was probably one of the areas where they should’ve reined me in, but they didn’t." - Alan Moore (2)"Cripple the bitch!" - Len Wein (2)(3)A lot has changed in the ten plus years since I last reviewed The Killing Joke, and, in that time, there seems to have been a fundamental shift in how that work is percieved. Where as it once regularly topped people's lists of greatest comic book works, it's generally looked upon more shamefully in a post #metoo world. The work still has its defenders, but it takes quite a bit of googling to find a write-up that doesn't unequivocally condemn the work. Even its author has few kind words to say about the work, recently stating, "I've been told the Joker film wouldn't exist without my Joker story, but three months after I'd written that I was disowning it, it was far too violent." (4)And yet, the critics of TKJ, appropriately raging at the senseless violation of an otherwise totally under-utilized, under-explored female character in order to drive the plot for a male hero, still manage to miss the true tragedy of this work. Having browsed dozens of write-ups on TKJ and interviews with Moore and Bolland, what continues to fascinate me is that the entire percieved tragedy is that it was done to a woman, and so violently and senselessly. What never ever seems to make its way into the conversation, though, is who this was done to. To quote Len Wein in an apology offered for his "cripple the bitch" comment, "I have always regretted making that comment. I was a good deal younger at the time, and it was meant ironically. And, no, the decision was not made lightly. When Alan suggested it, I told him I’d have to discuss it with then-publisher Jenette Kahn and get back to him. We had a lengthy discussion, decided it was something that had newer been done before to a major character, and agreed to let Alan go ahead. I called him back, made the now-regretable comment, and we want ahead. I still think crippling Barbara was a good idea. I thought she was a much more interesting character as Oracle than she ever was as Batgirl." (3)The one thing both critics and champions of this work seem to agree upon is that Batgirl, herself, wasn't anyone particularly important, and that, while her paralysis may have been perverse and indicative of problematic attitudes in our society, losing Batgirl, herself, was no big deal. While Alan Moore has given many interviews where he touches upon his regret over The Killing Joke in recent years, he never once mentions "Batgirl," nor "Barbara" nor "Babs" Gordon. Neither does Brian Bolland. They still don't seem to perceive her removal as a hero as being problematic, and even the most rabid of critics railing against the work tend to focus on Barbara Gordon as a sort of everywoman, missing the idea that her character wasn't considered worthwhile enough to be retired with dignity. I sat down and read The Killing Joke today for the first time in decades, and I actually found my eyes tearing and lips trembling. I'd first read this as a kid; a nine year old KID. There were no age restrictions placed on this thing, and it was selling like hot cakes in the wake of the 1989 Batman film, a film which brought adolescents in droves to local comic shops to read everything Batman they could get their hands on. My best friend actually memorized The Joker's song and made up his own tune to it: The horrific violence towards Barbara Gordon was normalized for us; we were too young to understand how wrong this was. And we were also too young to process the loss that it represented. For us, Babs Gordon had always been paralyzed and always would be; it was an inevitability introduced to us in our very first months getting into comics. So it's only now, having made my way through her entire history in this thread, that I was finally able to experience this work as being the death of Batgirl. A cruel, undignified, unceremonious death in which Babs Gordon gets exactly one page as a character before becoming a senseless victim: a page in which she has nothing better to do than dote on her father, serve him hot cholocate, and answer the door for him. A page in which she exhibits no personality whatsoever. It takes her twice as long to get shot: From then on, the story is all about what her paralyzis and implied rape means to Jim Gordon and to Batman, never what it does to Barbara as a character herself. She does get this one chance to emotionally process the experience, but she uses it to express concern for her father at the hands of The Joker instead of doing anything to shine the spotlight on her own far darker plight: This story never gave a damn about Barbara. She is a plot point and shock value; nothing more. In a 2021 interview, Brian Bolland even points out how the cover itself actively works to ignore Barbara Gordons' feelings and experiences. In his words, "Funny enough, I always think the most disturbing scene was the cover because the cover is the moment when the very worst thing in the story is taking place. You're seeing it from the other direction. You're looking at something that is now very familiar and iconic and all that; a bit of fun really. But, when you think about the story, you think, 'Hang on a minute; that's the moment where we probably go a little too far.'" (1)The cover, itself, is a celebration of Barbara's rape, and it goes so far to ignore her thoughts/feelings/very identity in that moment as to point the camera 180 degrees in the other direction. This isn't just about a disturbing celebration of mysogynistic violence; it's like if DC had broken Batman's spine off camera, never had him get better, and never bothered to even explore what it meant to him on an emotional level after. Bye bye. Who the hell's going to miss you? I guess it's a testament to Paul Levitz and Len Wein's ability to knock Babs Gordon down from the lead role in DC's top-selling Bat title circa 1978 to near-total obscurity a decade later where something like this could happen without anyone batting an eye. I guess I'm one of the few people reading this story who would have understood that the Babs Gordon who was once pulling stunts like this: from Batman Family #7 (1976)or this: from Detective Comics #494 (1980wouldn't freeze with fear and stand helplessly when someone points a gun at her. I guess I'm one of the few who understands how truly dead Batgirl already was before the bullet even left the barrel. And (of course), in the words of Barbara Kesel: "...it’s still creepy that DC women seem to stay damaged and dead while the men… sigh." (5). Batman gets better, Jason Todd gets better, but Babs is done for until the next company-wide reset occurs twenty-three years later. Important Details:1. Though not originally intended to be in-continuity (check out that retro Batmobile, for example): Barbara Gordon is paralyzed and then either raped or at least sexually assaulted by the Joker, and this carries over into regular continuity, first getting acknowledged next month in Batman #426. Minor Details:1. Moore certainly worked hard to make sure there would be no mistaking that Babs Gordon would never walk again. 2. As if Batgirl couldn't get further de-powered after being stripped of her mentor in Detective Comics #485 (when Kathy Kane is senselessly murdered off panel for no apparent reason), stripped of her career as a congresswoman off-panel between Detective Comics #487 and #488, stripped of her memories of Batman and Robin's secret identities (she ends up figuring them out again MUCH later on) in Detective Comics #489, stripped of her independence, now living back home with her father for some reason in Detective Comics #490, stripped of her confidence as a crime-fighter after Cormorant nearly kills her in Detective Comics #491, and stripped of her second career as director of a research thinktank in order to be common librarian last week in Batgirl Special #1, she apparently couldn't even keep down that job and is now an "ex-librarian" presumably living with her dad once again in this story: Of course, once again, how much of this was ever intended to count towards continuity? 2. The original panels where The Joker's photos of Babs are displayed were more graphic and even more suggestive of rape. Bolland was ordered to redraw the central photo only, though the entire page is disturbingly sexual. Here is the original page (NSFW): So, there you have it: the unceremonious end of Batgirl for more than two decades. I consider this the climax of this review thread and will wrap up with a few reviews charting the death of Jason Todd and rise of Oracle before bringing this all to a close. Of course, there's so much more I could go on to cover --Knightfall, Prodigal, Tim Drake, Stephanie Brown, and Cassandra Cain, to name just a few-- but this is where my childhood ends, as well as any remaining scraps of the Bronze Age Batman family, so it's where I will choose to end too. (1) Dollar Bin Bandits (2021, October 20). Comic book creator interviews: Brian Bolland. Dollar Bin Bandits. podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/brian-bolland/id1576289731?i=1000539162094 (2) Talk To Alan Moore! (2004, January). Wizard: The Comics Magazine, (147), 61–64. (3) RobGronowski’sPartyBusDriver. (2016, April 27). Midweek Trivia. Observation Deck. web.archive.org/web/20191104215837/https://observationdeck.kinja.com/midweek-trivia-1773399048 (4) Drum, N. (2020, October 10). Alan Moore Calls Out The Killing Joke, Says Adam West is the Best Version of Batman. Comicbook. comicbook.com/movies/news/alan-moore-the-killing-joke-adam-west-best-batman/ (5) DC Women Kicking Ass. (2011, May 26). A chat with former Batgirl writer Barbara Randall Kesel: "I just wanted to read stories where the women didn't embarrass me". Tumblr. Retrieved April 29, 2023, from dcwomenkickingass.tumblr.com/post/5871466489/brkinterview Great analysis, I've read it twice! (By the way, I can't visualize the images... 😅) |
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Post by Chris on May 2, 2023 14:52:52 GMT -5
I don't know that DC hated her. Len Wein certainly seemed to have something against her (well before his "cripple the bitch" comment), and Paul Levitz had something against her before that. For Levitz, it seemed to be because she was more popular (and possibly even more powerful in her day job as a congresswoman) than Batman/Bruce Wayne in the early days of Batman Family. I still tend to think it was him wanting to clear the path for his own creation, the Huntress. |
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Post by zaku on May 2, 2023 15:20:33 GMT -5
In the post-Crisis continuity Barbara knew Batman was Bruce Wayne? 🤔
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on May 2, 2023 21:18:00 GMT -5
Great analysis, I've read it twice! (By the way, I can't visualize the images... 😅) Thanks! I'm sorry you're not able to view the images and hope that didn't detract from the experience too much. In the post-Crisis continuity Barbara knew Batman was Bruce Wayne? 🤔 Pre-Crisis, she (re)learned his and Dick's secret identities as of Detective Comics #526 (1983):  However, Post-Crisis she did not know their identities as recently as Secret Origins #20 (1987):  Again we run into the confusion of this being a timeless non-continuity story in which Batman drives his Atom-Age Batmobile but in which Joker is able to permanently change Barbara Gordon's destiny in regular DCU continuity. |
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shaxper
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Posts: 22,812
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Post by shaxper on May 2, 2023 21:25:00 GMT -5
I don't know that DC hated her. Len Wein certainly seemed to have something against her (well before his "cripple the bitch" comment), and Paul Levitz had something against her before that. For Levitz, it seemed to be because she was more popular (and possibly even more powerful in her day job as a congresswoman) than Batman/Bruce Wayne in the early days of Batman Family. I still tend to think it was him wanting to clear the path for his own creation, the Huntress. You may be right. In all fairness, hers was a better written B feature during that time period. Elliot S. Maggin was great writing Batgirl prior to Huntress making her debut, and Cary Burkett was great (at first) after Huntress was out of the picture, but that was a rough era for Babs Gordon in between, and it was also when most of her de-powering took place. |
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Post by codystarbuck on May 2, 2023 21:29:05 GMT -5
We've had this argument before and I'm not going to rehash it; but, I do not see evidence of Levitz having any agenda against Batgirl. An ambivalence maybe, perhaps an association with the tv series, which spawned her and the camp label that they had been trying to shed, for years. I do feel that DC had washed their hands of doing anything with the character, since they couldn't seem to find anyone who could make her work well enough to sell comics. I don't think they tried very hard, but there you go. There is a definite vibe, in the period, to shed any vestiges of the tv series, so that they are being taken seriously in the media, as the movie moves closer to happening. There were few female viewpoints, at DC, at the time. Jenette Kahn didn't seem to get involved in the stories or set any agenda to recruit more women, as pros or readers; just more readers, period. She definitely was in tune with building up Wonder Woman, as their key female property for the mainstream. I think that was as far as she was involved. The rest likely saw her and Supergirl as redundant characters and leftovers from a period of more juvenile comics, an image they were doing everything to shed, at the expense of a mainstream audience, as it turned out. So, not Levitz's agenda or Wein's; but a sort of collective groupthink that Batgirl didn't sell, no matter what they did with her, positive or negative.
Other than Kahn, you had Barbara Randall Kesel and Karen Berger and that was it. I have no proof; but suspect Dann Thomas and Sharon Wright (Grell) were treated as wives and their status on books was considered to be humoring their husbands. They certainly didn't try to promote them. Randall was pretty junior, at the time, while Berger was Alan Moore's editor, on Swamp Thing (first co-editor, with Len Wein, then sole editor). Randall was mentored by Dick Giordano and Berger by Paul Levitz, who trusted her enough to be the editor of his Legion work. Berger was interested more in horror comics and also edited Amethyst. So, no one was championing Batgirl.
I don't think any of that justifies what happened; but, I don't think it was as pre-meditated is you present. I suspect more that DC would pretty much greenlight anything Moore wanted to do, based on his sales track record and the fact that every writer and editor was in awe of his scripts (many interviews have confirmed that they were passed around the DC offices for reading). The one thing they altered was Watchmen, because of the finality of the story, to use the Charlton Action Heroes and the passed on Twilight, because of too many adult elements and finality, though the shockingly became less objective to those ideas when others mined them.
I just think they didn't care about any female character, other than Wonder Woman, based on sales track records and the demographics of their readers. I also don't think they cared deeply about a large swath of the male characters, beyond the other segments of the Trinity and a few choice favorites of the Powers That Be. I just think they were more than okay with rubber stamping anything Moore wanted to do, the more shocking and adult, the better, until; they got flack from some corner.
I do find Len's apology a bit comical, regarding her being better as Oracle as Oracle only existed because Kim Yale was pissed off about what happened to Barbara Gordon, a character that she loved. Writing with John Ostrander, who had become established as a reliable and quality writer gave her the opportunity to fix that, with John's collaboration. They crafted Oracle and everyone else followed their lead and the example of their use of her in Suicide Squad. Moreover, they addressed the trauma that Barbara dealt with and also her anger at herself, which is a common reaction to such things.
I was in college and read The Killing Joke. I thought it was a powerful story; but, I was not happy with the violence and the senseless use of Barbara Gordon. I felt it was out of character for her to be caught out that easily. It was definitely part of the growing "grim & gritty" which in some hands I was fine with (Moore, usually, Grell, Chaykin, Ostrander, etc) and not so fine with others. I liked the greater use of more realistic motivations and personalities; but, felt like they were way overdoing things. I was more fixated in the Joker's backstory, I must admit, which was far more interesting than the previous Red Hood stuff and also added a more human level of tragedy. The problem, which it took time for me to identify, was the development of the Joker's psychoses. The stress and loss causing him to snap is one thing, but the degree to which he fell is missing to many steps and motivations. I had enough psychology courses to know that monsters are grown over a long time, not as the result of a single incident. I agree with you that Barbara s just treated as a plot element and not a human character. She is there to demonstrate the depths to which the Joker has fallen, from the man we see in the flashbacks. She suffers so that Commissioner Gordon suffers, as a weapon against Batman, to push him to the edge and kill the Joker. Instead of Suicide by Cop it is Suicide By Bat.
Quite frankly, the G&G trend is a big part of what drove me away from mainstream superhero comics and more into the indies, though I'd stop back for the ones that balked at the idea, like Waid's Flash or Busiek's Marvels or Power of Shazam. Personally, I think too many people in charge at DC and Marvel were overcompensating for being dismissed as childish stories and characters, or, at best, camp. I think they were too willing to give their blessing to people like Alan Moore, who pushed the envelope and I think it went to the heads of Moore and some others, who were not challenged on this stuff, so they got more and more outlandish. No one seemed to want to make the call the Jim Shooter did, when presented with the idea that Phoenix consumed an entire civilization, but was going to be depowered back to Jean Grey, with no further ramifications. He took flak; but, I tend to agree with his decision that there had to be consequences for Phoenix's actions. That is what an editor is supposed to do. I don't think most of DC's were willing to make those decisions, until they started stepping in for fear of angering their corporate masters, as they started eyeing the properties more, in the wake of the Batman film.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on May 2, 2023 21:44:26 GMT -5
I don't think any of that justifies what happened; but, I don't think it was as pre-meditated is you present. Just to spell out the timeline under Levitz' editorship once again: 1. Paul Levitz becomes editor as of Detective Comics #482. 2. stripped of her mentor in Detective Comics #485 (when Kathy Kane is senselessly murdered off panel for no apparent reason) 3. stripped of her career as a congresswoman off-panel between Detective Comics #487 and #4884. stripped of her memories of Batman and Robin's secret identities (she ends up figuring them out again MUCH later on) in Detective Comics #4895. stripped of her independence, now living back home with her father for some reason in Detective Comics #4906. stripped of her confidence as a crime-fighter after Cormorant nearly kills her in Detective Comics #491 and left as a bumbling, terrified B-lister after. Levitz takes control as of Detective #482, and all of that happened between Detective #485 and #491, involving multiple writers. Sure seems deliberate to me. Also, for what it's worth, I was recently listening to an interview with some editor at DC (geez! I cannot remember who or even what he had edited), where the interviewee mentioned Jeanette Kahn making a push for the editors to hire more female talent. Presumably this would be around the time that Mindy Newell joined the staff. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on May 2, 2023 21:50:19 GMT -5
Couple things that occur to me reading Shax's thoughts on the Batgirl special... fair warning, I haven't read it, just going by the comments.
The thing that jumped out is how she's making it sound like getting elected to congress was a bad thing.. 'when I ran off to Congress..' is what she says there. What?? Makes what is for many people their life's goal, and others their way to an enduring legacy seems like what people do to avoid a bad break up. Nonsense.
I didn't know about it at the time, but now that I do... 'retiring' Batgirl but simply letting her be a successful Congresswoman would have been great, and had some excellent story possiblities later (like with Suicide Squad, or when Lex ran for President. Oracle is a great character too, but she could have easily been someone new.
Also, the theme of younger heroes overcoming the same trauma/learning the same lessons is definitely a problem for DC.. How many Dick Grayson stories are there where he learns his own self worth and steps out of Batman's shadow... I suspect at least one for every writer. Kyle rayner did the 'inexperienced hero proves his worth to the veteran hero like once a year during his own book. How about Guy Gardner really being a pretty nice guy after all? Marvel did it to the New Warriors both as a team, and it Firestar and Speedball separately.
I'm sure there are more, that's just off the top of my head.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on May 2, 2023 21:53:30 GMT -5
Couple things that occur to me reading Shax's thoughts on the Batgirl special... fair warning, I haven't read it, just going by the comments. The thing that jumped out is how she's making it sound like getting elected to congress was a bad thing.. 'when I ran off to Congress..' is what she says there. What?? Makes what is for many people their life's goal, and others their way to an enduring legacy seems like what people do to avoid a bad break up. Nonsense. I didn't know about it at the time, but now that I do... 'retiring' Batgirl but simply letting her be a successful Congresswoman would have been great, and had some excellent story possiblities later (like with Suicide Squad, or when Lex ran for President. Your logic is totally sound here. What it fails to take into account was that there's plenty of support to indicate that Batgirl was being intentionally de-powered, and allowing her to remain an effective congressperson made her more powerful than Bruce Wayne, head of the Batman Family. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on May 2, 2023 22:11:21 GMT -5
As far as Killing Joke goes, I knew what was in it before read it, of course, but it was still shocking. I've always felt the rape didn't make sense.. that's not the way I see Joker. I think at this point he's been every kind of deviant, but that one doesn't make sense to me. What's very, very much worse is the ending.. it makes it seem like Batman is just as much of a monster. Honestly, based on what I know about Moore now, I suspect that's exactly what he was going for, and he thought most comic fans at the time wouldn't realize he was doing it.
Clearly not too much later it was proven that Babara Gordon CAN sell (Birds of Prey started 7 years later), and now she's back in multiple books.
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,812
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Post by shaxper on May 2, 2023 22:15:03 GMT -5
What's very, very much worse is the ending.. it makes it seem like Batman is just as much of a monster. Yes. If you read the ending as the two bonding for one absurd moment, then it's exceptionally disturbing how quickly the wrongs done to Barbara get forgotten once there is no longer a conflict for her victimization to drive. I know we're supposed to read the ending as Batman and Joker killing each other, but I just don't see it. Batman is leaning on Joker below his neckline, and Joker isn't appearing to do anything in response other than laugh. In panel three, he doesn't even appear to have that needle that he used earlier to kill the real estate salesman.  |
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Post by codystarbuck on May 2, 2023 22:32:39 GMT -5
I don't think any of that justifies what happened; but, I don't think it was as pre-meditated is you present. Just to spell out the timeline under Levitz' editorship once again: 1. Paul Levitz becomes editor as of Detective Comics #482. 2. stripped of her mentor in Detective Comics #485 (when Kathy Kane is senselessly murdered off panel for no apparent reason) 3. stripped of her career as a congresswoman off-panel between Detective Comics #487 and #4884. stripped of her memories of Batman and Robin's secret identities (she ends up figuring them out again MUCH later on) in Detective Comics #4895. stripped of her independence, now living back home with her father for some reason in Detective Comics #4906. stripped of her confidence as a crime-fighter after Cormorant nearly kills her in Detective Comics #491 and left as a bumbling, terrified B-lister after. Levitz takes control as of Detective #482, and all of that happened between Detective #485 and #491, involving multiple writers. Sure seems deliberate to me. Also, for what it's worth, I was recently listening to an interview with some editor at DC (geez! I cannot remember who or even what he had edited), where the interviewee mentioned Jeanette Kahn making a push for the editors to hire more female talent. Presumably this would be around the time that Mindy Newell joined the staff. I'll concede the latter point, as I had seen little reference to her actively lobbying for more women on staff. I think we are never going to agree on what motivated Levitz' decisions relating to Batgirl as editor. To my mind, you are inferring motivations based on the weak story, without much supporting evidence from behind-the-scenes. I have not encountered any reference to Levitz displaying that petty a disposition. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist, just that it hasn't seemed to have been aired, publicly. I have seen many in the fan community give him flak for being the public face of some of DC's corporate decisions, but generally without regard to the fact that he is an executive carrying out the policies of the company. That is a separate thing and I think he took unfair criticism for it. In general, as a writer, I liked Levitz work and loved his Legion stuff, and mostly loved his JSA material. Maybe that love colors my perception of him in relation to this material; but, until I see concrete evidence to the contrary, that perception stands. To me, The Killing Joke being excessive and the lack of thought given to Barbara in the story is a group thing and not a Levitz thing. I think they (DC Editorial) just didn't see an upside to her and didn't give her a moment's thought and I think the same was true for the death of Supergirl, in Crisis and I think that is more indicative of how insular the editorial world was at both DC and Marvel, even with a newer generation of people at the helm. |
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Post by chadwilliam on May 3, 2023 0:06:56 GMT -5
Powerful review, Shaxper - well done.
Some thoughts...
I would argue that Barbara Gordon was sexually assaulted but not raped - I don't think Moore would have played coy with this detail if she had been; I think it would have been mentioned. In fact - and I really don't want to go online and read this trash again so I'll go by memory alone - doesn't Bullock tell Batman what happened as far as the evidence suggests when he visits her in the hospital? I'm pretty sure the doctor explains that she'll never walk again and Bullock adds something like, "something else you should know - we found a camera lens, we think he took some photos". Now, I'm thinking that if she were raped Bullock's little bit of additional info there would have mentioned rape - ie. "we think she was... violated too". That he makes no such comment suggests to me that there was no rape. I mean, why mention the fact that The Joker took pictures but leave out the more heinous act of rape?
And by the way, the fact that I'm actually putting thought into whether The Joker raped Batgirl in a DC approved comic book which is heralded as some sort of classic even today is emblematic of why I stay the hell away from superhero comics these days.
But regardless of whether this was rape or not the fact is that Barbara Gordon was sexually assaulted. I mentioned this once, I believe somewhere on these forums, and was told that horrible as what The Joker did to Barbara Gordon was, there's no evidence that she was sexually assaulted. To be clear, the other poster certainly wasn't being callous or dismissive or flippant or anything like that about sexual assault, it was just that they had a blind spot to it in this story and I bring this up now, because I think a lot of readers share that obliviousness. The Killing Joke is 'the story where Barbara Gordon gets paralyzed'. Point out that she gets sexually assaulted as well and I suspect a large number of readers will either need to be reminded of this fact or have to consider it for a moment before agreeing that 'hey yeah, you're right'.
I don't know what justifications would have to made before I'd accept the notion that a comic book featuring the sexual assault of Batgirl had to be told, but I do know that if you tell a story in which a character is sexually assaulted and the fact that she was sexually assaulted goes over the head of your audience because they're distracted by scenes of beautiful drawings of Batman chasing The Joker through a funhouse then your story is a failure.
"Cripple the bitch".
Hoo boy. I'm pretty sure I've mentioned this before, but I don't think Len Wein's vulgar comment was meant as maliciously as it comes across in print. That might sound exceptionally hypocritical of me coming right after I post my distaste for the comic and the idea itself, but here goes...
It's been mentioned that in writing his story, Moore needed approval to paralyze Barbara Gordon before he could go ahead and write that sequence. Frankly, that might explain why Barbara Gordon is pushed to the side here - not knowing if he'd be allowed to paralyze her, Moore may have intentionally made it such an inconsequential segment of his story that if DC said 'no' to the idea, he'd still have a virtually completed comic ready to go before having to write something else in that spot. But I'm getting off track. So Moore needed approval from Wein who needed approval from the higher-higher ups. I believe that Wein noted that his higher ups were giving him the run around so every couple of days, Moore would call Wein to ask for an answer, Wein would call his people, Wein's people would be non-committal, Wein would go back to Moore and say 'ask me later', Moore would get back to Wein, Wein would call his people, get the run around, go back to Moore, 'ask me later', Moore would ask again, Wein would... etc, etc etc. Until finally, one day after going back and forth like this seemingly forever, Wein gets approval and thinks, "FINALLY!!! AN ANSWER!!!" Moore gets in touch, asks "do you have an answer yet abou-" "CRIPPLE THE BITCH!!!" In other words, Wein was releasing the built up stress he was likely undergoing from what he perceived to be getting the bureaucratic runaround and not indulging in some sick misogynistic fantasy. Not that a powerful female role model deserved to be thrown away with such a command, but I do think context is important (and, yes, by 'context' I mean 'what I think might have happened' but I think my scenario is easier to believe than the idea that Len Wein was some sick sociopath who got his jollies from seeing female superheroes degraded like this).
Also, Moore was the one who brought Wein's comment to the publics' notice. Moore has also said "perhaps they didn't rein me in" here. He's also disavowed the comic and all that really rubs me the wrong way. DC let him go too far; Wein sealed Batgirl's fate with his sick comment; Moore has washed his hands of the story, but... no. Moore went too far; Moore sealed Batgirl's fate with his sick comic.
Bringing up Wein in this "Hey! I may have written the comic, but listen to what Len Wein said to me! Man - what a sicko huh? I was just trying to write a charming little Batman comic!" fashion just reduces my opinion of Moore. So, yeah, those are my thoughts.
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Post by Chris on May 3, 2023 2:02:53 GMT -5
There were few female viewpoints, at DC, at the time. Jenette Kahn didn't seem to get involved in the stories or set any agenda to recruit more women, as pros or readers...Other than Kahn, you had Barbara Randall Kesel and Karen Berger and that was it. I have no proof; but suspect Dann Thomas and Sharon Wright (Grell) were treated as wives and their status on books was considered to be humoring their husbands. Also, for what it's worth, I was recently listening to an interview with some editor at DC (geez! I cannot remember who or even what he had edited), where the interviewee mentioned Jeanette Kahn making a push for the editors to hire more female talent. Presumably this would be around the time that Mindy Newell joined the staff. No love for Janice Race or Laurie S. Sutton? If I recall correctly, the only reason Sharon Wright was writing under Grell's name so readers would think Grell was still writing the book. She and Grell divorced and she began writing under her own name in the 80s. Also, Colleen Doran was also doing some work for DC at the time, but nothing regular. |
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