shaxper
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Post by shaxper on May 6, 2023 20:26:42 GMT -5
The fact that she was specifically identified as a child molester, in her debut, meant that she was not likely to be used for something like Oracle, who is acting on the side of angels. All we get in Oracle' first appearance is a computer screen willing to help the squad and unwilling to reveal its motives. That could have gone in any direction. Yes, it's certainly possible it was going to be Babs all along. My point is simply that, if you were there at the time, Powell might have seemed like the more logical secret identity of Oracle. |
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Post by Chris on May 6, 2023 22:14:48 GMT -5
The fact that she was specifically identified as a child molester, in her debut, meant that she was not likely to be used for something like Oracle, who is acting on the side of angels. All we get in Oracle' first appearance is a computer screen willing to help the squad and unwilling to reveal its motives. That could have gone in any direction. Yes, it's certainly possible it was going to be Babs all along. My point is simply that, if you were there at the time, Powell might have seemed like the more logical secret identity of Oracle. My personal best guess on it is that Kim Yale wanted to do something with Babs, and John Ostrander had already come up with the idea for Interface and worked it into the storyline he was doing in Manhunter. Whether the idea of Interface influenced making Babs into Oracle, or whether Ostrander just liked both ideas and started writing about them in two different books at the same time, I can't say, but that sort of thing is not uncommon in comics (he had a third computer-based character going on in Firestorm and Suicide Squad, Cliff Carmichael aka the Thinker. Ostrander really liked cyber-characters) . That said, with Ostrander anything in possible. In the storyline he was writing in Firestorm at the same time, he decided to kill off Professor Stein and proceeded to do exactly that, but not long after Stein ended up not only being found alive, but becoming the main character of the series. As he said in an interview, "Stein was dead. Until he wasn't." After all that useless trivia... I see your point, it could have been some clever misdirection or just as coincidence, but I can see it that way. |
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Post by zaku on May 7, 2023 1:36:49 GMT -5
and this one soon after:  Unrelated question: this is the first time that a Robin costume is depicted with pants? Previously, when Dick had to operate in a cold climate, what did he wear? |
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Post by shaxper on May 7, 2023 1:51:55 GMT -5
and this one soon after: Unrelated question: this is the first time that a Robin costume is depicted with pants? Previously, when Dick had to operate in a cold climate, what did he wear? Yep. First and only time. I could never understand why it was so baggy and now wonder if it wasn't just something they picked up at K-Mart on the way. |
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Post by zaku on May 7, 2023 2:31:57 GMT -5
Unrelated question: this is the first time that a Robin costume is depicted with pants? Previously, when Dick had to operate in a cold climate, what did he wear? Yep. First and only time. I could never understand why it was so baggy and now wonder if it wasn't just something they picked up at K-Mart on the way. I suppose that is exactly what in-universe happened. He bought something to protect himself from cold and put the Robin jacket over it. Really, it's incredible how in more than fifty years they never addressed the matter. There isn't always a warm climate in Gotham. |
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Post by codystarbuck on May 7, 2023 10:21:45 GMT -5
All we get in Oracle' first appearance is a computer screen willing to help the squad and unwilling to reveal its motives. That could have gone in any direction. Yes, it's certainly possible it was going to be Babs all along. My point is simply that, if you were there at the time, Powell might have seemed like the more logical secret identity of Oracle. My personal best guess on it is that Kim Yale wanted to do something with Babs, and John Ostrander had already come up with the idea for Interface and worked it into the storyline he was doing in Manhunter. Whether the idea of Interface influenced making Babs into Oracle, or whether Ostrander just liked both ideas and started writing about them in two different books at the same time, I can't say, but that sort of thing is not uncommon in comics (he had a third computer-based character going on in Firestorm and Suicide Squad, Cliff Carmichael aka the Thinker. Ostrander really liked cyber-characters) . That said, with Ostrander anything in possible. In the storyline he was writing in Firestorm at the same time, he decided to kill off Professor Stein and proceeded to do exactly that, but not long after Stein ended up not only being found alive, but becoming the main character of the series. As he said in an interview, "Stein was dead. Until he wasn't." After all that useless trivia... I see your point, it could have been some clever misdirection or just as coincidence, but I can see it that way. Kim Yale wrote Manhunter, with Interface, not Ostrander. She is listed as sole writer. They are jointly credited for issue #10, when she reappears, but is taken into custody by the FBI. A counterpoint to Interface as an Oracle-like character; she had to be in close proximity to a computer to manipulate it. Oracle is remotely hacking into things. Flo was originally the computer tech for the Squad and she was earmarked to be the sacrificial lamb, when they go to Apokolips, with Duchess/Lashina. Barbara's background as a librarian is the template for what Oracle is; an information broker. No, still don't see them deciding on Interface then changing course. More likely would be Sylvia Kanter, the cop, than Interface. |
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Post by shaxper on May 9, 2023 23:17:49 GMT -5
Batman #436-439 (August thru September 1989)     "Year Three" Script: Marv Wolfman Pencils: Pat Broderick Inks: John Beatty, Michael Bair Colors: Adrienne Roy Letters: John Costanza Grade: n/a (evaluating only in terms of what this story means for the Batman Family) On the surface, this storyline seemed to be a series of contradictions (and I mean well beyond those gorgeous George Perez covers being followed by 20+ pages of god-awful Pat Broderick art). Ever since the sales numbers from Dark Knight Returns had come in, DC had been working systematically to turn Batman into a tortured, grim and gritty anti-hero that resembled the character within those pages. Now, only thirteen months after Batgirl was unceremoniously retired and paralyzed, only seven months after they'd killed off Jason Todd (as well as the very idea of Batman ever working with a partner again), and literally at the same time that a new, gritty interpretation of a solo Batman was conquering the box office and winning over general audiences, DC suddenly runs in the exact opposite direction, taking four bi-weekly issues to play up Dick Grayson's importance in Batman's life, tell his Post-Crisis origin for the first time,  and (most importantly) set up a third Robin.  Add to this the fact that the entire run that Year Two was tied to was already pretty much out of continuity by this point, and just about everything about this storyline had to be confusing to anyone who'd been following Batman for the past four years. As one of the many, many kids that first flocked to Batman (and to comics) beginning with these issues and because of the Tim Burton film, I can tell you that even I was marginally aware of what a strange move this was. Sure I knew who Robin was. I'd grown up on Superfriends and Adam West/Burt Ward Batman reruns, but I also understood that this didn't seem to match what was happening in the films and in mainstream pop culture at that very moment. Warner Bros., it would seem, didn't understand this quite as well. Upon learning that Robin had been killed (even though it had been approved through all the proper channels (1)), Starlin was fired from DC (2), and O'Neil was ordered to introduce a replacement Robin right away (3). Warner still believed that Robin was indispensable for licensing and merchandising purposes. And thus, two fill-in issues and a three-parter by John Byrne later, Year Three was coordinated to hit stands at the very same moment that impressionable new fans who had just seen the movie would be flocking to the spinner racks for Batman comics. It's worth adding that Warner had pressured Tim Burton to include Robin in the 1989 film, and though he ultimately pushed back and got that aspect of the film cut before the part was ever officially cast, Warner had every reason to believe there would be sequels, and they were intent that Robin would be in them (4). Robin even got an action figure as part of both the Batman (1989) and Batman Returns toy lines. And thus, from Warner's perspective, this about-face in the progression of the Post-Crisis Batman not only made sense; it was essential to their bottom line. From the perspective of this review thread, this is the moment where the notion of The Batman Family develops a heartbeat once again. Sure, it won't be happy-go-lucky like the old days, and sure Batgirl still isn't coming back, but this Batman will ultimately learn to accept help from Nightwing again:  and while the child-endangerment aspect of a Boy sidekick can't be wholly dismissed in the aftermath of A Death in The Family a new rationale for the existence of a Robin has been introduced. O'Neil and Kahn (I think eroniously) continue to believe that fans could never accept a sidekick like Jason Todd who was in greater danger without Batman than he was while under Batman's tutelage, so the rationale is now inverted: Batman is in greater danger without a Robin:  That doesn't really justify child endangerment, but I guess that's the best they could do. Also significant to this thread: now that DC needs a Robin again (and especially since the previous incarnation did not take), O'Neil brings in Marv Wolfman, the writer who had almost single-handedly been developing Dick Grayson outside of the Batman titles over the previous decade. Way back in this thread, I spent a great deal of time discussing the apparent tension between editorial offices as Wolfman was trying to make Dick Grayson a Titan first and foremost, while then Batman editor Paul Levitz wanted him first and foremost by Batman's side, promoting those lucrative Batman and Robin licensing and merchandising rights. That tension exploded when Wolfman was (briefly) hired to write both franchises simultaneously, finding himself off the Batman titles, his intentions contradicted, after only one story arc. Finally, after nine years of tension and incongruity, Wolfman has the greenlight to reconcile these continuities and write HIS Dick Grayson in the main Batman title. what follows is a grim Batman with a glimmer of hope, as well as a sort of family surrounding him that he keeps at arm's length. It isn't fully a Batman Family, but it's the best we'll get for a long while in The Post Crisis. Important Details:1. First appearance of Tim Drake in flashback 2. Wolfman appears to acknowledge that the Post-Crisis Batman franchise has now veered away from the Dark Knight Returns continuity with this specific moment:  No uniform in the case. No retired Batman. Ultimately, Wolfman is taking this somewhere with a little more hope. (1) Calamia, K. (2022, January 31). Superhero death - creators revisit Batman's 'a death in the family' controversial fan vote. Newsorama. Retrieved May 4, 2023, from www.gamesradar.com/revisiting-batmans-a-death-in-the-family-controversial-fan-vote/(2) SYFY Wire. (2018, February 27). Jim Starlin on Creating Thanos, Killing Robin and Split with Marvel (Behind The Panel). Youtube. Retrieved May 9, 2023, from www.youtube.com/(3) Rogers, V. (2021, August 10). An oral history of Tim Drake aka Robin, with O’Neil, Wolfman, Nicieza, Yost, and more. Newsorama. Retrieved May 9, 2023, from www.gamesradar.com/tim-drake-robin-oral-history-batman-dc/ (4) Superhero Stuff You Should Know. (2022, November 7). Marlon Wayans’s Robin: The unmade plans (with Eric Elliott & Ian Miller ... Apple Podcasts. Retrieved May 9, 2023, from podtail.com/en/podcast/superhero-stuff-you-should-know-by-superhouse/marlon-wayans-s-robin-the-unmade-plans-with-eric-e/ |
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Post by codystarbuck on May 10, 2023 10:18:51 GMT -5
To each their own, but I like Pat Broderick's art....always have. Not so good drawing a child; but, neither were most of his contemporaries and I do mean most. A lot of comic book artists struggled with child proportions.
Personally, I enjoyed Batman Year 3. Speaking as someone who had seen or been reading Batman since the very late 60s (Filmation cartoons), it was a welcome change to have Robin again, as I knew him. Dick Grayson starting out, with some tweaks. After the whole Death in the Family fiasco and the previous back and forth with the character I was happy for some stability and also a story that addressed the fact that Batman was making Clint Eastwood seem like one of the Marx Brothers, by comparison.
I also think DC was correct in their assessment. To the general public, Batman and Robin were a team. More people knew the characters from the tv show and the Super Friends than from comic books and the merchandising was a mixture of Batman solo and Batman & Robin. They also had to maintain the trademark. In the end, they had a much better development with Tim Drake, for my money. Enough that I shelled out for the mini-series, when they came out, despite the gimmicks (cards & such).
Sadly, no significant group was flocking to comic shops after seeing the Burton films. They sold a ton of merchandise in other stores and a ton of Batman comics; but, mostly to the same audience that was in the shops every week and mostly specialty comics, like the Elseworlds, Dark Knight collections, etc. In fact, when I was stationed in Charleston, SC, and saw the film,. My local shop tried to arrange a set up, in the theater lobby, with the opening of the film and was told that no comic book promotions were being allowed.....they wouldn't even let him pay to host a screening. The radio station was allowed though, to my annoyance when a local DJ was shouting near my ear, inside the theater, before the film started. I got so ticked off I growled at him to stop shouting in my f-ing ear!
Year 3 a A Lonely Place of Dying got me to read more than an issue of the Batman comics, though mostly just through the storyline.
As far as Robin in the movie, he was in the script for most of the drafts across the 10 years of development. The original script took its cues for the Englehart/Rogers run, particularly the tail end, with "The Laughing Fish" and Robin popped in and out of that run, but was there , significantly, for both the Penguin story (which preceded the Joker tale) and that one. Things got tweaked and Marlon Wayans was eventually cast, with a scene borrowed from the recent comics, with him trying to steal the wheels off the Batmobile. (sounds like a song lyric). I had no problem with introducing Dick Grayson/Jason Todd/Bobby McSidekick as a character in the film, with an eye towards them becoming Robin later, just as they introduced Harvey dent as the DA, in preparation for him becoming Two-Face, later. I shudder to thin what Burton would do with a Two-Face, though, based on how he cocked up Penguin. Should have just left it as Catwoman, if you ask me.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on May 10, 2023 10:54:35 GMT -5
In the end, they had a much better development with Tim Drake, for my money. Enough that I shelled out for the mini-series, when they came out, I sense we are about to disagree again  Denny O'Neil's comments in the letter section a few issues from now indicate the exact opposite. In fact, this is when he expands out the letter column to two pages in order to accommodate all the new readers, and the average age of the letter writers drops considerably as well. Beyond that, I'll speculate that this is what made the Robin limited series DC's top selling books in 1991. Fans who had been there for DKR, for Year One, and even for The Killing Joke had come to appreciate a darker solo Batman, whereas the kids who had just started reading were beginning with Tim Drake and were therefore inclined to root for him, regardless of how badly those limited series would end up being written. The sources I consulted (one is cited in my review above) indicate that Marlon Wayans didn't figure in until Batman Returns. The front-runner to play Robin in the '89 film was an actor whose name was totally unfamiliar to me. Wayans' character was slated to run a garage in Batman Returns where Bruce would take the Batmobile to get help in disabling The Penguin's devices. Somehow, that would spin into his fighting alongside Batman. |
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Post by MDG on May 10, 2023 11:05:15 GMT -5
Denny O'Neil's comments in the letter section indicate the exact opposite. In fact, this is when he expands out the letter column to two pages in order to accommodate all the new readers, and the average age of the letter writers drops considerably as well. Beyond that, I'll speculate that this is what made the Robin limited series DC's top selling books in 1991 and 1992. Fans who had been there for DKR, for Year One, and even for The Killing Joke had come to appreciate a darker solo Batman, whereas the kids who had just started reading were beginning with Tim Drake and were therefore inclined to root for him, regardless of how badly those limited series would end up being written. It was also a period where many shops replaced a poorly-painted Spider-Man on their sign with a poorly-painted Batman. |
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Post by shaxper on May 10, 2023 11:07:54 GMT -5
Denny O'Neil's comments in the letter section indicate the exact opposite. In fact, this is when he expands out the letter column to two pages in order to accommodate all the new readers, and the average age of the letter writers drops considerably as well. Beyond that, I'll speculate that this is what made the Robin limited series DC's top selling books in 1991 and 1992. Fans who had been there for DKR, for Year One, and even for The Killing Joke had come to appreciate a darker solo Batman, whereas the kids who had just started reading were beginning with Tim Drake and were therefore inclined to root for him, regardless of how badly those limited series would end up being written. It was also a period where many shops replaces a poorly-painted Spider-Man on their sign with a poorly-painted Batman. Seldom have truer words about comicdom ever been uttered. |
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Post by zaku on May 16, 2023 15:05:55 GMT -5
Fun fact: in the current continuity Dick began to wear pants after a disastrous date with Supergirl ^_^  |
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Post by shaxper on May 27, 2023 11:41:55 GMT -5
Batman #440-442, New Titans #60-61 (October thru December 1989)      "A Lonely Place of Dying" Script: Marv Wolfman, George Pérez (co-plotter) Pencils: Jim Aparo, George Perez Inks: Mike DeCarlo, Bob McLeod, Tum Grummett (finishes) Colors: Adrienne Roy Letters: John Costanza Grade: N/A (only evaluating in terms of this story's contributions to The Batman Family) So much about Tim Drake and his inclusion in this storyline changes across these five issues that one has to assume this story was a rush job. Let's see: Tim gets called "Jeff Drake" at one point (his original intended name), his age and chronology get so twisted that the entire Batman chronology seems to get altered as a result, and even his (and presumably Wolfman's) reasoning for why Batman needs a Robin abruptly changes late in the story:  The original reason. The revised reason.In editor Denny O'Neil's words, the reason for this rush job was that the higher ups at Warner were displeased with Robin's death, and "word came down from on high - I mean, higher than Jeanette - no, we need a new Robin right away" (1) Really, the sole purpose of this mess of a story (to this day, I don't even understand the title) is to get a new Robin as quickly as possible. And whereas the goal with Jason Todd was to create a more believable kid sidekick who was in more danger without Batman, Wolfman ditches realism and goes for full-on fantastic by making Tim a sort of avatar for kid readers, stepping out of the shadows to direct the characters in the story that he already knows so well:  and, of course, being just different enough from the average reader that he is a perfect candidate to become the next Robin:  It's the exact same strategy that made Dick Grayson and all the kid sidekicks that followed in the 1940s so damn appealing - maybe you can't be your favorite hero, but it might be easier to believe you could be their kid sidekick, fighting by their side. Unfortunately, an empty avatar through which the reader can identify who is good enough to become Batman's partner and is being fasttracked to do just that can't help but come off as a bit Mary Sue.  Things just work out a little too quickly and unbelievably for this seemingly perfect kid. So (of course) Batman and Nightwing conveniently find themselves in a death trap that only Tim Drake can save them from.   This schtick has been used far too many times to introduce new Robins, and this already wasn't the first (thank Doug Moench and Jason Todd for that one). And yet the oddest thing about this entire story is that, after all that rushing to get this story together and fasttrack Tim towards earning everyone's approval and becoming Robin, the story does a total 180 at the end, Bruce initially refusing to accept this new Robin all together  and then finally being open to the idea without making any kind of firm commitment. Presumably, this is the point where Warner stopped applying pressure because the Robin-less Batman from the 1989 film had become such a runaway success. We know Warner pushes for the introduction of Robin again in the follow-up sequel (2), so they may have asked O'Neil to hold off on introducing this new Robin in order to coordinate his debut with his cinematic debut in the second film's release, or they may have just relaxed the pressure, allowing O'Neil and Wolfman to take their time in fleshing out this new sidekick and helping him to earn the readers' approval before having him don the domino mask for real. All I can say with relative certainty is that Bruce seems to be speaking for everyone - the creative team, the readers, and perhaps even Warner/DC - when he says the following:  And thus Tim Drake goes a full year, waiting in the wings and developing an actual personality, before he is allowed to once again save Batman from a hopeless death trap and become the third Robin:  We can be relatively sure the decision to delay Tim's ascent into the Robin identity was last minute just by looking at the corner box of the next issue:  Whoops! That never ended up happening. Important Details:1. First full appearance of Tim Drake, and first appearance of Tim in a Robin costume (though he is not Robin yet) 2. This storyline allows Wolfman to put the gritty, angsty Batman to bed for a while and depict a more traditional version of the character who is less guarded and stubborn. Minor Details:1. Probably the biggest error Wolfman makes in attempting to make this Robin an avatar for the reader is giving him living parents:  How in the world was he going to do nightly patrols and hang out in the Batcave without his parents knowing? And if they did, what sane parents would allow this? So, of course, they are soon conveniently eliminated anyway. 2. Wolfman continues to push for a new (though somewhat limited) sense of a Batman Family made up of Bruce, Dick, Alfred, and Tim:  and that includes burying the hatchet between Bruce and Dick:  In the end, while we don't get a third Robin right away, what we do get instead is a return to a more Brone Age depiction of Batman: less jaded, less guarded, and with a family of sorts to lean upon, even if that family no longer includes Batgirl. Heck, Lucius Fox makes his first Post-Crisis appearance in the very next issue of Batman. In a Post-DKR world, some writers will always be tempted to make Batman unstable and angry, but Wolfman's reestablishing of a Batman Family ensured that this wouldn't be the default approach to Batman in the decade that would follow. As for Tim Drake, I could devote an entire thread to his progression, but will summarize it more briefly for the purposes of this thread: Many outspoken members of the fanbase were rooting for Tim after this storyline, and many others were rooting for a darker solo Batman who more closely resembled the 1989 film. Both got their way when the Robin limited series launched, establishing for the first time a Robin who worked away from Batman at least as often as he worked with him. This allowed some Batman writers who preferred a solo Dark Knight to push Tim to the background because he would go on to get plenty of exposure in his own three limited series and ongoing series, as well as in Young Justice. Anyway, this is the note on which I intend to end my exploration of Batman and Robin in this thread. All that's left to do is spend a little more time with Oracle... (1) Rogers, V. (2021, August 10). An oral history of Tim Drake aka Robin, with O’Neil, Wolfman, Nicieza, Yost, and more. gamesradar. www.gamesradar.com/tim-drake-robin-oral-history-batman-dc/ (2) Superhero Stuff You Should Know. (2022, November 7). Marlon Wayans’s Robin: The unmade plans (with Eric Elliott & Ian Miller ... Apple Podcasts. Retrieved May 9, 2023, from podtail.com/en/podcast/superhero-stuff-you-should-know-by-superhouse/marlon-wayans-s-robin-the-unmade-plans-with-eric-e/ |
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Post by codystarbuck on May 27, 2023 20:06:30 GMT -5
I was okay with this story; but, Tim did seem to come out of nowhere and he is a little too good to be true. At the time, I took it more as a kind of audition to become Robin and hoped they would develop him; because, obviously, he is not trained and Bats wasn't a complete moron. So, I didn't mind the gap between it and the Robin mini. I was glad they updated the costume, as you would hope that Batman learned from past experience that Robin needs more protection than Dick was given...or Jason.
The story I always heard was not so much pressure in regards tot he movies as much as licensees, who wanted to do Batman & Robin, as, to the mass audience, they had always been synonymous, before the film. Whether that was true or not, I suspect it was at least a factor in things, along with the movies.
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Post by shaxper on May 28, 2023 15:23:04 GMT -5
Barbara Gordon in 1990Beyond the cover date of February 1990, Barbara Gordon/Oracle seldom sees action in 1990, and the reason for this is not made clear until halfway through, in this minor appearance in Firestorm #98 (cover dated June 1990):   Apparently, Flo Crowley's death made her reconsider her Oracle identity. I expect we'll see more of this when Barbara finally reappears in the pages of Suicide Squad in December In the meantime, Barbara's reference to "other developments in my life" is likely about The Joker's reemergence in the pages of Batman #450-451, though that storyline was still two months away from publication (according to Mike's Amazing World). I'm not sure what else Barbara could have meant since she appears absolutely nowhere else in that time. In Batman #450-451, we see Barbara once again being used as a plot device. One page of Jim Gordon visiting the little woman at her perennial career as an unambitious librarian:  and the rest is spent on Jim Gordon, and the impact the Joker ruining his daughter's life has had on him. We don't even return to Babs at the end to get her reaction to how events transpired. Perhaps the real reason Babs is missing from the pages of Suicide Squad for all this time was because Denny O'Neil asked them not to touch Babs Gordon since there was a big Joker storyline coming up that would involve Jim Gordon and the aftermath of The Killing Joke? Seems like, if the intention all along was to have her step away and considering retiring after Flo's death, Yale and Ostrander would have shown that. Anyway, after absolutely nothing is done with her, she finally returns to Suicide Squad at the end of the year, and boy do they make it count (we'll be hitting that issue next). From that point forward, Oracle is a regular presence in the Suicide Squad until its termination a little more than a year later. Minor Details:1. Does Jim Gordon know Barbara is Oracle? If so, it seems a little trite to have him visiting her at the library instead of at her console, absolutely no mention of her dual life as Oracle being made.
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