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Post by shaxper on May 29, 2023 6:00:13 GMT -5
Suicide Squad #48-49 (December 1990 thru January 1991)   "In Control" and "Out of Control" Script: John Ostrander, Kim Yale Pencils: Geof Isherwood, Luke McDonnell Inks: Geof Isherwood Colors: Tom McCraw Letters: Todd Klein Grade: A+ The covers say it all. Barbara Gordon is finally the center of attention, and she will no longer play the part of helpless victim. While Babs Gordon had already made her return as Oracle in 1989, it was done in cameo appearances in titles that weren't big sellers. You could be a huge Batgirl fan and miss it entirely. But this is where that changes: cover appearances, an entire two-part story devoted just to her, and a writing team passionate about redeeming the character and undoing the wrongs committed against her. At this point, the Bat Office was done with Barbara Gordon and had given Ostrander and Yale the greenlight to use her as they saw fit. While their primary goal was to redeem Babs Gordon and make her a meaningful presence in the DCU again, they felt there was a need to revisit what had been done to her first; to explore the event and its ramifications in a way that was more respectful to the victim. "Don’t get me wrong; I was and I remain a big fan of both Alan Moore and Brian Bolland. Individually and together they have done stunning work. Moore is one of the giants of the comic book industry. He is, IMO, a better writer than I am and I don’t say that about many other writers (I have a very healthy ego and opinion of my own work, thank you very much). That doesn’t mean he can’t go wrong and I think that Batman: The Killing Joke went wrong...Barbara opens the door. Barbara has been Batgirl and faced some of the costumed psychos inhabiting Gotham. She’s a grown woman who, in her own continuity, had been a congresswoman for at least one term. And yet she just flings the door wide open like a silly ninny. There stands The Joker and he has a large caliber handgun. He shoots Barbara somewhere below the middle. From the angle, Kim and I thought it was the spine although others think he actually shot her in the uterus. He then rips off her clothes, beats her, takes pictures of her (while her father, off panel, is held motionless by The Joker’s henchmen), and possibly rapes her. Kim and I felt that was strongly implied but, to be fair, it was not directly shown. I know women who have been assaulted. I know women who have been raped. That’s heinous enough but can you imagine what it would be like to have been shot, to have your spine broken, and then to be sexually assaulted? The pain, the horror – I can’t dwell on it too long...I should point out that the cover has a close-up of the Joker aiming a camera at the reader and saying, 'Smile.' In that context, the only possible interpretation I can conceive is that the reader, the viewer, is Barbara as she lay on the floor, after she had been shot, presumably after she had been violated. How does that feel?" (1)And so Yale and Ostrander revisit that moment in The Killing Joke, this time from Barbara's perspective, and...it's a lot to take in.  Furthermore, they show the emotional toll such an experience would have on even the strongest hero, from recurring nightmares and emotional trauma to the sheer physical repercussions of now being disabled for life.  Much as with the Bronze Age Carey Burkett run, as well as with the Post-Crisis Batgirl special, this is once again a story about Babs Gordon facing her deepest fears and learning to come out healed and stronger than ever, and I would argue that it's handled best here, as Babs (through no choice of her own) is forced to deal with a new maniac pursuing her, which dredges up all of her unaddressed issues stemming from The Killing Joke:  It's damn powerful, and it isn't a clean and convenient resolution either. Babs creates a false identity (complete with change of hair color) with which to lure in the villain, and things start to get uncomfortably cruel once again, until...   Amanda Waller succeeds in tracking down Oracle and intervenes on her behalf. Oh, it's not the ideal redemption climax we were looking for, but it's a lot more real, as are the moments that follow:  it's damn powerful therapy, and it sets Babs Gordon out on a new path, beginning to heal and redefine her place in the world. It also creates a compelling and essential relationship between Babs and Waller that, on some level, resembles her father's relationship with Batman.  Waller is the one who gets her to become Oracle again. Interestingly enough, Flo Crawley and Babs' initial reason for (pardon the term) walking away from Oracle never get addressed here. Again, I suspect Oracle's absense for most of 1990 came from the Bat Office wanting to reserve her for Batman #450 and #451. With that story over and done, Yale and Ostrander are free to take Oracle in exciting new directions, and that they do. Two issues later, we'll finally learn what Waller's offer entails:   Oracle is no longer a side character floating in the background of Ostrander's various titles, nor is she just a member of the Suicide Squad now. She is a leader in waiting, ready to be the brains on the battlefield as much as Dick Grayson is with the Titans (albeit remotely). And while Suicide Squad will be cancelled before Babs really gets a chance to hone her leadership skills, Birds of Prey will pick up four years later and finally realize that vision for her. Important Details:1. Oracle becomes an official member of Suicide Squad 2. Babs Gordon assumes the manufactured identity of Amy Beddoes, which she uses when with Waller or the rest of the team. Waller knows this is not her real name. 3. Confirmed that Jim Gordon does not know Babs is Oracle:  (1) Ostrander, J. (2008, November 13). Savaging Barbara Gordon. ComicMix. www.comicmix.com/2015/08/02/john-ostrander-savaging-barbara-gordon/ (2) Ulaby, N. (2016, August 4). The unsung heroine who helped shape “suicide squad.” NPR. www.npr.org/2016/08/04/488680942/the-unsung-heroine-who-helped-shape-suicide-squad |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on May 29, 2023 6:59:16 GMT -5
Well, that gets us to the end of the line, more or less. Babs has established her identity as Oracle, Dick is Nightwing, Tim Drake is Robin, and there is a sort of Batman Family at work among Bruce, Tim, Dick, and Alfred.
There are a few "further out" stories that I think it would be worthwhile to explore past 1991. I don't want to get too hung up in New Titans, Suicide Squad, nor Birds of Prey lore, but I think the following issues may prove worthwhile to explore. Let me know if you think I should consider any others:
Batman Chronicles #5 (1996)
Birds of Prey #8 (1999)
Nightwing Annual #2 (2007)
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Post by wildfire2099 on May 29, 2023 11:47:57 GMT -5
There was one early in the Chuck Dixon run where Dick and Babs go on a date, and trapeze are involved... I'm not actually sure if it's Birds of Prey or Nightwing Also, are you reading the current Nightwing book? Because you really should be  |
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Post by shaxper on May 29, 2023 12:48:35 GMT -5
There was one early in the Chuck Dixon run where Dick and Babs go on a date, and trapeze are involved... I'm not actually sure if it's Birds of Prey or Nightwing Birds of Prey #8 😉 Three reboots later, that just isn't the character I started with. I hear it's an amazing run in its own right, but I especially struggle with comics set in a Bat Universe so heavily laden with continuity and yet possessing so few roots in the works I grew up on. |
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Post by codystarbuck on May 29, 2023 12:57:30 GMT -5
I already gave my thoughts to this, over in my Suicide Squad review thread; but, just wanted to add that people should really read that NPR piece, in the second footnote. It really does a great job at explaining what Kim Yale contributed to the Suicide Squad and illustrates that she wasn't just "John Ostrander's wife." Kim was a hell of a writer, in her own right and her CBG columns, relating to her breast cancer, were a mix of anger, humor, acceptance, coping and a joy of life. I had the pleasure of meeting her and even sitting next to her, during a panel discussion (she was a fan as much as a pro), at GenCon, back in the mid-90s. I was deeply saddened to hear of her passing and John provided some fine anecdotes, in CBG, to follow up on her previous columns. When she went in for her first mastectomy, she wrote a little note on her breast, to the surgeon, saying something to the effect of, "Hey doc, it's the other one!" She would walk the halls of the ward, after, to help get her strength up, after the procedure and wore these Godzilla slippers, which emitted the iconic roar, when she stepped down onto the floor. She would prowl the halls, giving our roars, as she went. When it came time for her second mastectomy, she wrote another note to the surgeon, saying "it's the one left, Doc." She fought, but the cancer won. However, it never took away her spirit. I had the pleasure of meeting John, about 10 years ago, or so and we talked about Kim, for a few minutes. He told me a story of a neighbor, who was very religious and evangelical. Kim had her own beliefs on the subject, but was always polite and respectful as he would press his beliefs on her. One day she stopped him, as he talked of heaven, and asked him if Gandhi was in "your heaven," and the man said, well, no....Gandhi was a great man, but he was not a Christian and would not be in heaven. Kim just smiled and replied, "Well, then I don't want to go to your heaven. I wouldn't feel welcome in any place that wouldn't welcome Gandhi." And that was that. No angry retort, no argument of theology; just a simple statement of her belief and some food for thought for the neighbor. They remained cordial and friendly; but he had gotten the message and stopped evangelizing to her. John's blog, on Comicmix, had some other tales of Kim, in her younger days and she was quite the imp. She's kind of forgotten, in comics fandom, but, she contributed a hell of a lot to the field and left it better than when she found it.  |
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Post by wildfire2099 on May 29, 2023 15:26:42 GMT -5
There was one early in the Chuck Dixon run where Dick and Babs go on a date, and trapeze are involved... I'm not actually sure if it's Birds of Prey or Nightwing Birds of Prey #8 😉 Three reboots later, that just isn't the character I started with. I hear it's an amazing run in its own right, but I especially struggle with comics set in a Bat Universe so heavily laden with continuity and yet possessing so few roots in the works I grew up on. I would say you can read it on it's own... I don't read or have any interest in the Bat Books, and under Taylor's pen it feels like this series naturally comes after the Wolfman/Perez Titans.. the only previous thing you need to know is Alfred died (which it tells you from the beginning). I was definitely feeling that way for a while, and hadn't read it for some time before coming back to it.. it's worth a look. I thought it was Birds of Prey.. I remember last time I organized things I was debating whether to keep it or not (I'm definitely Team Kori)  |
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Post by thwhtguardian on May 29, 2023 16:20:12 GMT -5
There was one early in the Chuck Dixon run where Dick and Babs go on a date, and trapeze are involved... I'm not actually sure if it's Birds of Prey or Nightwing Birds of Prey #8 😉 Three reboots later, that just isn't the character I started with. I hear it's an amazing run in its own right, but I especially struggle with comics set in a Bat Universe so heavily laden with continuity and yet possessing so few roots in the works I grew up on. As Wildfire said, it's not steeped in current continuity much at all it really feels like it picked up from the 90's-early 2000's. Dick's moved back to Bludhaven, Babs has sort of moved in with him, the Titans pop in frequently...and he has a dog who doubles as the canine hero known as bite-wing. I can't recommend it enough. And while it's a bit of a stretch one of my favorite Batfamily events were Cataclysm and No Mans Land. Not only did you get the usual suspects like Babs, Dick and Tim but the additions of Jean Paul Valley, Helena Bertinelli and later on Cass Cain really made for a great mix. |
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Post by shaxper on May 30, 2023 9:17:29 GMT -5
..and he has a dog who doubles as the canine hero known as bite-wing. That's the best sales pitch for this run that I've heard yet! I've been tempted to explore that iteration of the Batman Family (and especially Cass Cain and Stephanie Brown), but, like the 1950s Batman Family, it has no significant connection to the more memorable version that ran from 1967 until (I would argue) 1983 (see 'Tec #526). I've kept this thing going through 1991 just to see how Dick and Babs reach their semi-final iterations (at least until the Post-Flashpoint reboot puts Babs back in the cowl), but who knows? Maybe I'll eventually start a new thread that continues from here. |
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Post by chadwilliam on May 30, 2023 12:48:10 GMT -5
Well, that gets us to the end of the line, more or less. Babs has established her identity as Oracle, Dick is Nightwing, Tim Drake is Robin, and there is a sort of Batman Family at work among Bruce, Tim, Dick, and Alfred. There are a few "further out" stories that I think it would be worthwhile to explore past 1991. I don't want to get too hung up in New Titans, Suicide Squad, nor Birds of Prey lore, but I think the following issues may prove worthwhile to explore. Let me know if you think I should consider any others: Batman Chronicles #5 (1996) Birds of Prey #8 (1999) Nightwing Annual #2 (2007) killed my passion for modern Batman though it wasn't until Cataclysm that I threw in the towel so I can't really comment on the past 25 years or so, but... A couple of moments you might want to touch upon include: 1. a very brief bit (maybe three panels) bit when Bruce Wayne is talking to Oracle after Bane has broken his back and he's now confined to a wheelchair. I can't remember the issue though I think it was drawn by Jim Aparo meaning it would have been in either issue 498, 499, or 500. The exchange, from what I recall, is that Wayne is looking for info, Oracle supplies it, and before she signs off, says something like, "I hope you get used to the chair faster than I did" to which Bruce remarks to Alfred something like, "She knows?!" cue Alfred's "is there anything The Oracle does not know, sir?" Again, it's a brief moment - I'm certainly not suggesting that you review Knightfall/Quest/Search/etc. (at least not in this thread) with the expectation that at some point she's going to pop up and then think "That's it??!!" but it might be worth touching upon since you might be wondering if Oracle had any thoughts on Batman being confined to a wheelchair (albeit for a month or whatever). 2. Oracle will join Grant Morrison's JLA at some point. I don't know how integral she will be to the team, but I do remember one moment where The Martian Manhunter suggests that they use their technology/powers to fix her injuries - an offer which she refuses using something like, "I'd rather learn to walk again naturally rather than rely on robotics" or something like that. Again - brief moment, but it's one of those "Let's address the elephant in the room and explain why someone in a wheelchair doesn't just use comic book technology to walk again" you might want to at least tic off your "Yes, this point was raised at one time" box. 3. I think it was in Joker: Devil's Advocate where we get yet another of those execrable "Batman saves The Joker's life for the millionth time because that's what a true hero does" stories which I bring up here since if ever you've said to yourself, "I wonder how Barbara Gordon feels whenever she reads the latest "Joker kills hundreds; Batman saves Joker from electric chair!" headlines in The Gotham Gazette?" well here you get an answer of sorts. Batman decides to prove that The Joker has been framed for a murder he didn't commit and must prevent his execution. He asks Barbara for some info, she asks who she's helping, Batman tells her The Joker, she... I'll tell you if want to know, but won't spoil it here in case you don't. As far as issues - the only one I'd add to your list is Batman #511. This is a Zero Hour tie-in which features a Barbara Gordon Batgirl who was never paralyzed by The Joker. I don't know if anything in-depth was done with the character or the storytelling potential of having her show up and meet the paralyzed Barbara Gordon was ever realized (in fact, I don't think the two ever met on panel) but a rare chance to see Gordon as Batgirl in then present day continuity (even if it is an alternate version). |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on May 30, 2023 13:19:04 GMT -5
Well, that gets us to the end of the line, more or less. Babs has established her identity as Oracle, Dick is Nightwing, Tim Drake is Robin, and there is a sort of Batman Family at work among Bruce, Tim, Dick, and Alfred. There are a few "further out" stories that I think it would be worthwhile to explore past 1991. I don't want to get too hung up in New Titans, Suicide Squad, nor Birds of Prey lore, but I think the following issues may prove worthwhile to explore. Let me know if you think I should consider any others: Batman Chronicles #5 (1996) Birds of Prey #8 (1999) Nightwing Annual #2 (2007) killed my passion for modern Batman though it wasn't until Cataclysm that I threw in the towel so I can't really comment on the past 25 years or so, but... A couple of moments you might want to touch upon include: 1. a very brief bit (maybe three panels) bit when Bruce Wayne is talking to Oracle after Bane has broken his back and he's now confined to a wheelchair. I can't remember the issue though I think it was drawn by Jim Aparo meaning it would have been in either issue 498, 499, or 500. The exchange, from what I recall, is that Wayne is looking for info, Oracle supplies it, and before she signs off, says something like, "I hope you get used to the chair faster than I did" to which Bruce remarks to Alfred something like, "She knows?!" cue Alfred's "is there anything The Oracle does not know, sir?" Again, it's a brief moment - I'm certainly not suggesting that you review Knightfall/Quest/Search/etc. (at least not in this thread) with the expectation that at some point she's going to pop up and then think "That's it??!!" but it might be worth touching upon since you might be wondering if Oracle had any thoughts on Batman being confined to a wheelchair (albeit for a month or whatever). 2. Oracle will join Grant Morrison's JLA at some point. I don't know how integral she will be to the team, but I do remember one moment where The Martian Manhunter suggests that they use their technology/powers to fix her injuries - an offer which she refuses using something like, "I'd rather learn to walk again naturally rather than rely on robotics" or something like that. Again - brief moment, but it's one of those "Let's address the elephant in the room and explain why someone in a wheelchair doesn't just use comic book technology to walk again" you might want to at least tic off your "Yes, this point was raised at one time" box. 3. I think it was in Joker: Devil's Advocate where we get yet another of those execrable "Batman saves The Joker's life for the millionth time because that's what a true hero does" stories which I bring up here since if ever you've said to yourself, "I wonder how Barbara Gordon feels whenever she reads the latest "Joker kills hundreds; Batman saves Joker from electric chair!" headlines in The Gotham Gazette?" well here you get an answer of sorts. Batman decides to prove that The Joker has been framed for a murder he didn't commit and must prevent his execution. He asks Barbara for some info, she asks who she's helping, Batman tells her The Joker, she... I'll tell you if want to know, but won't spoil it here in case you don't. As far as issues - the only one I'd add to your list is Batman #511. This is a Zero Hour tie-in which features a Barbara Gordon Batgirl who was never paralyzed by The Joker. I don't know if anything in-depth was done with the character or the storytelling potential of having her show up and meet the paralyzed Barbara Gordon was ever realized (in fact, I don't think the two ever met on panel) but a rare chance to see Gordon as Batgirl in then present day continuity (even if it is an alternate version). At the very least, I'll check these all out. Not sure they'll warrant inclusion, but they'll satiate my own appetite for more content. Thanks! |
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Post by shaxper on May 30, 2023 16:04:56 GMT -5
The Batman Chronicles #5 (Summer 1996)  Oracle--Year One: Born of Hope Script: John Ostrander; Kim Yale Pencils: Brian Stelfreeze Inks: Karl Story Colors: Mark Chiarello Letters: John Costanza Grade: B The irony is not lost on me that, when Yale and Ostrander finally decide to go back and tell the story of how/why Babs became Oracle, it's done in the pages of the 1990s Bat Office's equivalent of The Batman Family title. Batman Chronicles was a quarterly publication intended to ensure that there was a Batman-related comic on the shelves every week of the year, and it's unique spin was that it tended to feature supporting cast instead of Batman himself, i.e. members of what would once have been considered The Batman Family. While it's great to see Oracle recognized as an important member of that family in the Post-Crisis, and while it's exciting to finally get the story of how she became Oracle, what Yale and Ostrander choose to add to Babs' backtory doesn't end up amounting to much. We learn that Babs took the "Oracle" name and avatar from a dream in which she visits a Grecian oracle for information about what to do with herself, only to discover that she is the oracle:  I'd always sort of hoped the name was (at least in part) a reference to Oracle Computers, or perhaps even the original Oracle Computer from which the company took their name. We also learn that Richard Dragon briefly taught her martial combat from within her chair in case she ever needed to defend herself one-on-one:  And, of course, we get the page that chadwilliam already shared in which Babs calls out Batman (and, in a sense, Alan Moore and anyone who defends The Killing Joke):  Beyond that, Kim Yale once again takes a full page to emphasize how difficult it is to be in a wheelchair:  and Oracle matches wits with Interface, a showdown I wished out loud for in my review of Suicide Squad #24-38. Spoiler alert: Oracle wins.  Who said being a vigilante of the keyboard is necessarily any less intense than being a vigilante of the streets? Not Yale and Ostrander! Beyond these relatively minor details, though, this origin story doesn't contribute much to our understanding of Oracle nor her backstory. well, except for one minor detail, and I truly cannot decide if I love or hate this little addition: Twice in this story, in the most minor of ways, we are shown that Batman was working behind the scenes to help Babs every step of the way towards becoming Oracle, first by bankrolling her computer setup:  and then by connecting her with Richard Dragon:  I like the idea that Bruce cares, especially after Babs called him out, but something about Babs' rise to independence being dependent upon Batman's charity feels...wrong. Worse yet, the story implies that Babs doesn't realize this, meaning the character who is about to build her very identity upon her ability to gain and distribute information, isn't clever enough to realize that Bruce Wayne is Batman nor (even more absurdly) that Matches Malone is Batman. Couldn't we have at least gotten a Jim Gordon-like moment where Babs suspects but then deliberately chooses not to know? Anyway, I'm not sure this story absolutely needed to be included in these reviews, but it's still Yale and Ostrander, and it still concerns Babs' evolution into Oracle, so it seemed like it belonged. |
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Post by thwhtguardian on May 30, 2023 18:20:11 GMT -5
..and he has a dog who doubles as the canine hero known as bite-wing. That's the best sales pitch for this run that I've heard yet! I've been tempted to explore that iteration of the Batman Family (and especially Cass Cain and Stephanie Brown), but, like the 1950s Batman Family, it has no significant connection to the more memorable version that ran from 1967 until (I would argue) 1983 (see 'Tec #526). I've kept this thing going through 1991 just to see how Dick and Babs reach their semi-final iterations (at least until the Post-Flashpoint reboot puts Babs back in the cowl), but who knows? Maybe I'll eventually start a new thread that continues from here. It's definitely one of my favorite parts of the book, her secret identity is Haley and she is an adorable three legged mut: :no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/22671829/IMG_1E20AB49FBC4_1.jpeg) And yeah, Cataclysm is definitely a stretch in terms of this thread but it's definitely one of my favorite Batfamily stories as it really utilizes all my favorite supporting characters really well. The Batman chronicles #5 (Summer 1996) Oracle--Year One: Born of Hope Script: John Ostrander; Kim Yale Pencils: Brian Stelfreeze Inks: Karl Story Colors: Mark Chiarello Letters: John Costanza Grade: B And, of course, we get the page that chadwilliam already shared in which Babs calls out Batman (and, in a sense, Alan Moore and anyone who defends The Killing Joke): Anyway, I'm not sure this story absolutely needed to be included in these reviews, but it's still Yale and Ostrander, and it still concerns Babs' evolution into Oracle, so it seemed like it belonged. And while this might not add much that we didn't already know it's still one of my favorite Babs stories. |
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Post by shaxper on May 30, 2023 18:38:23 GMT -5
It's definitely one of my favorite parts of the book, her secret identity is Haley and she is an adorable three legged mut: That T-shirt! |
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Post by shaxper on May 30, 2023 20:03:37 GMT -5
Nightwing #16 (January 1998)  "Wheels" Script: Chuck Dixon Pencils: Scott McDaniel Inks: Karl Story Colors: Roberta Tewes, Jamison Services (separator) Letters: John Costanza Grade: n/a (only evaluating in terms of Batman Family relevance) Twelve years into the Crisis on Infinite Earths reboot, there were two issues pertinent to this thread that had yet to be satisfactorily addressed: 1. What is Dick and Babs' relationship in the current day? 2. Did the Batgirl and Robin teamups that are the centerpiece of this thread even occur in the Post-Crisis? Secret Origins #20 (November 1987) attempted to at least tease an answer to both questions:  1. There was no significant bond between the two. 2. They maybe teamed up? Neither question appears to get addressed again until this 1998 issue, the first time Dick and Babs really get to talk since they last teamed up in Detective Comics #526 fifteen years earlier. Here, the old teamups are implicitly acknowledged for the first time, and a spark definitely still exists between the two:   1. What is Dick and Babs' relationship in the current day?Spicey. 2. Did the Batgirl and Robin teamups that are the centerpiece of this thread even occur in the Post-Crisis?Almost certainly. A romantic relationship ultimately follows, and it's now my unpleasant job to try to decide what aspects of that relationship are relevent to this discussion and what aspects are not. At the very least, it's impressive that a relationship that ran on-and-off again for two of the three decades that made up Post-Crisis continuity (and which continues in a somewhat different form today in the Post-Flashpoint continuity) had its roots in the old Batman Family run from 1976 that had otherwise albeit been forgotten by this point. |
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Post by codystarbuck on May 30, 2023 20:20:02 GMT -5
Your issue with the implication that Barbara doesn't know Bruce is Batman, to me, sounds like a dictate from above, as Ostrander & Yale aren't that dense in their work and Waller has suspicions about Amy Beddoes (and probably knows); but that is the deal in place. I would like to think that is what their true intent is, that Barbara knows, but the deal is that no one knows and she accepted the deal. The fact that they can't indicate it is where I say it was probably dictated to them.
I don't really feel that her recovery is dependent on Bruce/Batman, as such, though it makes for an easy story solution of how she got the sophisticated and expensive equipment and how did Bruce try to reconcile his failure to her. If they had more than one issue, they might have chosen for her to start with less sophisticated equipment and aid Batman, then he upgrades her gear.
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