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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2019 13:09:02 GMT -5
I’m 58 years old and must have read over 15 thousand comics . It would take something really unique to impress me these last 10 years That’s not to say there isn’t something brilliant, only that I’ve seen it all and this era is for the younger generation to love. Kind of the same thing my dad used to say about the comics I got in the 70s, basically, I read a lot of comics as a kid and I am glad you like these, but my comics from the 40s were better. Same as it ever was. -M
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Post by Icctrombone on Jul 6, 2019 14:32:53 GMT -5
I’m 58 years old and must have read over 15 thousand comics . It would take something really unique to impress me these last 10 years That’s not to say there isn’t something brilliant, only that I’ve seen it all and this era is for the younger generation to love. Kind of the same thing my dad used to say about the comics I got in the 70s, basically, I read a lot of comics as a kid and I am glad you like these, but my comics from the 40s were better. Same as it ever was. -M So we agree.
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Post by mrbrklyn on Jul 10, 2019 20:31:21 GMT -5
that is also not true. It is just something people say when they want to justify this line of thinking as rational when it is not rational. Most golden ages have been recognized as being great moments and reckognized the talents that drove those eras in cultural history, AS THEY HAPPENED, although retrospect usually cements that greatness. This was true for Rembrandt, Beethoven, Shakespeare, Michelangelo, Dickens, The Beatles, Babe Ruth, and Chris Claremount. However talents like Van Gogh and Vermeer took a like longer to get recognition. But no one of any expertise would say .. "Oh well, the Dutch Golden Ages... well, so what... the art in the 18th Century was just as good just a different era and style."
That last quote would be summarily incorrect and would be ignored. It wouldn't even raise an eyebrow because it is just so wrong as to not draw ire.
It's not irrational at all...it's reality. Well, I already posted most of the significant artistic eras and the protegees and masters of them as examples that not all eras produce the same quality of works and that these greats in history are almost always noted early in there careers and recognized as the greatest in there fields of all time. And yet you persist to say that such periods and eras are some form of an illusion. There was no Renascence, or the Dutch Golden Age, or era of literary greats or poetry. So you disagree with every scholar in the humanities and arts on this matter... so it is not being irrational on your part. How would you describe it?
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Post by mrbrklyn on Jul 10, 2019 20:40:06 GMT -5
Kind of the same thing my dad used to say about the comics I got in the 70s, basically, I read a lot of comics as a kid and I am glad you like these, but my comics from the 40s were better. Same as it ever was. -M So we agree. Accept it is not. It might be true that your father said that and was nostalgic, and there were aspects of Comics in the 1930's and 1940s was unique, and often of high quality, and highly creative, and ground breaking, but it was never the prevailing opinion of the independent comics press that developed later, that largely started in the early 1980s. Nobody with any mustard on the topic said, yeah, I'm glad you read the Sandman, and Planetary, and SIn City, and American Flagg, and the X-Men, etc etc and said the quality of the writing and storytelling was better in the 1940's.
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Post by mrbrklyn on Jul 10, 2019 20:44:42 GMT -5
Yes - it is different today.. very different. The point you make here has no evidence. There was a greater number of extremely well thought out books then in raw numbers and in percentage than there are now...
really it is not close.
Mediums go through golden ages and times of much lesser quality of output... and that is where we are now. There is no capacity at all right now to produce anything like Cerbus or Clarmounts XMen which ran a whooping 17 years. Hell, today doesn't even have a well of talent and economic outlets to produce even something compriable to Love and Rockets... let along XMen... and I hate the XMen.
All one can say is if they think Comics is now a dry bone, the film industry is even worst.
It's no different at all, for every great run from say the 80's you can name I could easily name one that's just as good coming out today AND ten books from when your book was published that were crap. I bet you can not. Lets start with Planetary. Name ONE current title of the same quality and execution. I'll go and read it and let you know with a real critique.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jul 11, 2019 9:51:51 GMT -5
It's no different at all, for every great run from say the 80's you can name I could easily name one that's just as good coming out today AND ten books from when your book was published that were crap. I bet you can not. Lets start with Planetary. Name ONE current title of the same quality and execution. I'll go and read it and let you know with a real critique. Planetary was awesome, no bones about that but in the last ten years there have been plenty of books that were easily just as enjoyable. To start with I present Jeff Lemire and Dustin Nguyen's Descender which is a fantastic sci-fi coming of age story with stunning are by Nguyen...and it's sequel which just started, Ascender, is proving to be just as good so this is a two for one deal. Next is Frank Barbiere and Chris Mooneyham's Five Ghosts which is a fun pulp adventure story about a hero who can summon the gifts of five literary legends. Number three is Ink and Thunder, a miniseries of one shot stories by Becky Cloonan exploring fantasy, horror and mythology. For number four I give you Thor: Mighty Avenger which is an amazing all ages friendly collection of adventures told by Roger Landrige with some really fantastic art by Chris Samnee. The IDW reboot of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles by Kevin Eastman and Tom Waltz does a great job of taking everything you loved about all the past iterations of the Turtles and weaving them into a new cohesive whole that still feels fresh and exciting. Although Mike Mignola first spun Lobster Johnson off into his own back in 2007, the book never really go going until he paired himself up with Tonci Zonjic and Kevin Nowlan. And while any of the minis they did were fantastic(Especially "The Burning Hand" and "Get The Lobster") the pulpiest of the lot was 2015's Christmas special "A Chain Forged in Life". 2011's Spaceman by Brian Azzarello, and Eduardo Risso is a sci-fi noir that is a definite must read. Breath of Bones is a three part mini by Steve Niles and Dave Watcher that features a Golem protecting a small Jewish village during WWII. Baltimore by Mike Mignola and Benstenbeck is a brilliant love letter to Dracula, the Universal and Hammer Monster Movies and everything else that goes bump in the night. Non-fiction is seldom a popular genre in comics but if you haven't read Ed Piskor's Hip Hop Family Tree then you're really missing out as it provides an intimate look at the evolution of Hip-Hop from it's early roots to today in a way that will keep even those not even interested in that genre of music turning the pages. And while yes Planetary was great...you know what books weren't good in that decade? Bill Jemas' Marville Chuck Austin's X-Men Countdown: Arena Ultimates:3 Image United Tarot Trouble Ultimatum Onslaught Reborn Our Worlds at War...and those are just off the top of my head. Any decade is a mixed bag when it comes to quality.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jul 11, 2019 10:15:11 GMT -5
I bet you can not. Lets start with Planetary. Name ONE current title of the same quality and execution. I'll go and read it and let you know with a real critique. Planetary was awesome, no bones about that but in the last ten years there have been plenty of books that were easily just as enjoyable. To start with I present Jeff Lemire and Dustin Nguyen's Descender which is a fantastic sci-fi coming of age story with stunning are by Nguyen...and it's sequel which just started, Ascender, is proving to be just as good so this is a two for one deal. [snip] I'll add anything by Brubaker and Phillips, but in particular The Fade Out. I'm glad we're going to get a "real critique." That sets my mind at ease.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jul 11, 2019 10:22:34 GMT -5
It's not irrational at all...it's reality. Well, I already posted most of the significant artistic eras and the protegees and masters of them as examples that not all eras produce the same quality of works and that these greats in history are almost always noted early in there careers and recognized as the greatest in there fields of all time. And yet you persist to say that such periods and eras are some form of an illusion. There was no Renascence, or the Dutch Golden Age, or era of literary greats or poetry. So you disagree with every scholar in the humanities and arts on this matter... so it is not being irrational on your part. How would you describe it? Titles such as Golden Age or Renascence are just names for eras, they don't objectively denotate that such eras are better than others. As such I'm going to need sources on those scholars you claim say otherwise. I only ask because as an Art History major I never read a single scholarly article that objectively stated that the art(whether literary, musically or visually) produced in one era was superior to the art produced in another. Even to a layman the reason why comparisons between eras should seem pointless is obvious as it's a classic case of apples to oranges. Art doesn't just spontaneously appear; all art(no matter the medium) is a product of the culture it was produced in meaning that the history and society that influenced,informed and educated say Michelangelo is drastically different than the inputs that inspired Picasso making any objective comparisons of quality impossible. Now, you can personally enjoy the art of Picasso more than Michelangelo(or vice versa), and that's completely factual because subjective tastes vary from person to person...but objectively better? I've never seen anyone successfully argue that.
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Post by mrbrklyn on Jul 11, 2019 20:57:48 GMT -5
I bet you can not. Lets start with Planetary. Name ONE current title of the same quality and execution. I'll go and read it and let you know with a real critique. Planetary was awesome, no bones about that but in the last ten years there have been plenty of books that were easily just as enjoyable. To start with I present Jeff Lemire and Dustin Nguyen's Descender which is a fantastic sci-fi coming of age story with stunning are by Nguyen...and it's sequel which just started, Ascender, is proving to be just as good so this is a two for one deal. Next is Frank Barbiere and Chris Mooneyham's Five Ghosts which is a fun pulp adventure story about a hero who can summon the gifts of five literary legends. Number three is Ink and Thunder, a miniseries of one shot stories by Becky Cloonan exploring fantasy, horror and mythology. For number four I give you Thor: Mighty Avenger which is an amazing all ages friendly collection of adventures told by Roger Landrige with some really fantastic art by Chris Samnee. The IDW reboot of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles by Kevin Eastman and Tom Waltz does a great job of taking everything you loved about all the past iterations of the Turtles and weaving them into a new cohesive whole that still feels fresh and exciting. Although Mike Mignola first spun Lobster Johnson off into his own back in 2007, the book never really go going until he paired himself up with Tonci Zonjic and Kevin Nowlan. And while any of the minis they did were fantastic(Especially "The Burning Hand" and "Get The Lobster") the pulpiest of the lot was 2015's Christmas special "A Chain Forged in Life". 2011's Spaceman by Brian Azzarello, and Eduardo Risso is a sci-fi noir that is a definite must read. Breath of Bones is a three part mini by Steve Niles and Dave Watcher that features a Golem protecting a small Jewish village during WWII. Baltimore by Mike Mignola and Benstenbeck is a brilliant love letter to Dracula, the Universal and Hammer Monster Movies and everything else that goes bump in the night. Non-fiction is seldom a popular genre in comics but if you haven't read Ed Piskor's Hip Hop Family Tree then you're really missing out as it provides an intimate look at the evolution of Hip-Hop from it's early roots to today in a way that will keep even those not even interested in that genre of music turning the pages. And while yes Planetary was great...you know what books weren't good in that decade? Bill Jemas' Marville Chuck Austin's X-Men Countdown: Arena Ultimates:3 Image United Tarot Trouble Ultimatum Onslaught Reborn Our Worlds at War...and those are just off the top of my head. Any decade is a mixed bag when it comes to quality. I'm not interested in a list of what you consider bad books, which is not even on the topic and a red herring. Try to answer the question by giving one title that can be evaluated, this depth. And yes, Planetary was not just awesome, but one of the greatest works in Comics history based on the charactorizations, depth of story telling that spaned nearly 2 years to unfold, to the ever changing styles from issue to issue, which was all but unique, which has created a completed package that has never been excelled. Planarty, aside from using multiple styles, had constructed page layouts that produces emotionalism, breaking and using the 9/9 format and 3rd patern layouts, in order to progress the emotional content and creating whole pages of unified messages. This means that the whole pages had unified emotional content, with subtle symbolism hidden in plain site of each page, and pages connected through margin decorations and panel stacking to put together whole issues, that are laced together, each unique, to create a who story. It was nearly 10 years of design work and it is a unique masterpeice that raises comic storytelling to new levels. None of the books you mention, and I've read all but two of those mentioned, come even close. Not gideon Falls, or ANYTHING that Crime Inc team put out, as much as I love his work... that is like on par with The Samdman Myster Theater... not Five Ghosts etc. I asked for ONE example so we can pull this argument apart, and you listed a dozen titles that for the most part wouldn't even touch Planetary's boot. But if you want to mention one, I'll be happy to do a break down.
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Post by mrbrklyn on Jul 11, 2019 21:34:54 GMT -5
Well, I already posted most of the significant artistic eras and the protegees and masters of them as examples that not all eras produce the same quality of works and that these greats in history are almost always noted early in there careers and recognized as the greatest in there fields of all time. And yet you persist to say that such periods and eras are some form of an illusion. There was no Renascence, or the Dutch Golden Age, or era of literary greats or poetry. So you disagree with every scholar in the humanities and arts on this matter... so it is not being irrational on your part. How would you describe it? Titles such as Golden Age or Renascence are just names for eras, they don't objectively denotate that such eras are better than others. As such I'm going to need sources on those scholars you claim say otherwise. I only ask because as an Art History major I never read a single scholarly article that objectively stated that the art(whether literary, musically or visually) produced in one era was superior to the art produced in another. Even to a layman the reason why comparisons between eras should seem pointless is obvious as it's a classic case of apples to oranges. Art doesn't just spontaneously appear; all art(no matter the medium) is a product of the culture it was produced in meaning that the history and society that influenced,informed and educated say Michelangelo is drastically different than the inputs that inspired Picasso making any objective comparisons of quality impossible. Now, you can personally enjoy the art of Picasso more than Michelangelo(or vice versa), and that's completely factual because subjective tastes vary from person to person...but objectively better? I've never seen anyone successfully argue that. It is not subjective. There is actually expertise in this. If you want to believe that all art and artist and era's are fundamentally equal, that is wrong. You want to compare Picasso to Michelangelo, that is fine. Picasso was a master artist, who again was famous in his time during a period of great artistic output (which contradicts your point that we glamorize previous generations and over new works, which is just not true and Picasso refutes that opinion as he was loved from the very start of his career). I doubt he could have done David and the Sistine Chapel, and I doubt he would have wanted to. It wasn't the Renaissance though. The Renaissance which constituted to greatest leap and output of western art in its history. And everything they did was break through from creating paint by hand to inventing oils painting, perspective, line drawing, architecture, human anatomy, in a 30 year period. Da Vinci, Giorgione, Michelangelo, Veronese, Raphael, Titian, Bellini, Tintoretto.... all at the top of their creative greatness producing at once. And not only did they not have tubes with paint to buy off the rack, but Picasso never touched these men for their scientific backgrounds, medical examinations, mathematical expertise etc etc which largely formed the art they made at that time. That is because that moment in time demanded and afforded that kind of vast exploration into the unknown, which by Picasso's time was already well developed areas of study, in a more modern, bureaucratized, educated, and brutal world. And that is largely the point. Each historical moment and time period is ripe for a particular technological and philosophical development. I golden age is formed by its individual geniuses and masterminds, and a sociological and technical moment that could be exploited by them. This is true of Liverpool in 1961, Amsterdam in 1620, Florence in 1492, Paris in 1876 etc. In terms of comics, the output today is nothing close to the golden era of the it's creativity when it's audience and creative teams matured and leveraged new printing and selling techniques to create a pronounced stream of quality works unlike what had been seen before, and which has not been seen since. This era was created by the internationalization of the comics market, the ditching of the comics code, creator owned properties, and overall interest to not just create sales, which were already flat and in decline compared to the market in the 1940's, but to invest in long term value of stories and to cultivate a lasting following. It was destroyed as the creative community spreading out, out of NYC, by the push for blockbuster sales and gimmicks, lack of editorial control (which I know sounds contradictory but there is a need for a balance) and the rise of ultra cheap digital creation and production making it harder and harder to give a story time to develop with low sales in a hyper competitive market.
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Post by mrbrklyn on Jul 11, 2019 21:37:47 GMT -5
Jeff Lemire and Dustin Nguyen's Descender which is a fantastic sci-fi coming of age story with stunning are by Nguyen...and it's sequel which just started, Ascender, is proving to be just as good so this is a two for one deal. This, BTW is an excellent book and not even close to the complexity and artistry of Planetary. I don't even know why you would think it would be. There is this habit where you set up your own conversation and you talk past someone an not with them. I asked for one book that even touched the level of Planetary, and you replied with a half dozen without making any direct comparison, and then listed a bunch of other books to make some other point about how books can flop in any era, which is completely irrelevant, and we have zero disagreement on this. But it sounds good so you get a point. Desender is a bit flat as a story, and it repeats previous materials and story-lines with some variation without adding any truly unique story. The pages are and panels are proped up by graphic coloration, but misses the multilayered symbolic meaning that informed nearly every page in Planetary. Gideon Falls, I think is actually the better book conceptually, although how different is it really? ANd the mystery of Gideon Falls seems to have stalled. Desender/Ascender is a good book and a fun read, but it is completely derivative and hasn't thrown anything out there that was ground breaking at all... And BTW, it is not necessary for all books to do that and to be of quality... But Planetary DID.
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Post by mrbrklyn on Jul 11, 2019 21:53:16 GMT -5
For number four I give you Thor: Mighty Avenger which is an amazing all ages friendly collection of adventures told by Roger Landrige with some really fantastic art by Chris Samnee. Say what? Your comparing that to Planetary?
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jul 12, 2019 9:22:23 GMT -5
So no to peer reviewed, scholarly articles that say that one era's artistic output is objectively superior to anothers then?
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jul 12, 2019 12:11:47 GMT -5
Planetary was awesome, no bones about that but in the last ten years there have been plenty of books that were easily just as enjoyable. To start with I present Jeff Lemire and Dustin Nguyen's Descender which is a fantastic sci-fi coming of age story with stunning are by Nguyen...and it's sequel which just started, Ascender, is proving to be just as good so this is a two for one deal. Next is Frank Barbiere and Chris Mooneyham's Five Ghosts which is a fun pulp adventure story about a hero who can summon the gifts of five literary legends. Number three is Ink and Thunder, a miniseries of one shot stories by Becky Cloonan exploring fantasy, horror and mythology. For number four I give you Thor: Mighty Avenger which is an amazing all ages friendly collection of adventures told by Roger Landrige with some really fantastic art by Chris Samnee. The IDW reboot of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles by Kevin Eastman and Tom Waltz does a great job of taking everything you loved about all the past iterations of the Turtles and weaving them into a new cohesive whole that still feels fresh and exciting. Although Mike Mignola first spun Lobster Johnson off into his own back in 2007, the book never really go going until he paired himself up with Tonci Zonjic and Kevin Nowlan. And while any of the minis they did were fantastic(Especially "The Burning Hand" and "Get The Lobster") the pulpiest of the lot was 2015's Christmas special "A Chain Forged in Life". 2011's Spaceman by Brian Azzarello, and Eduardo Risso is a sci-fi noir that is a definite must read. Breath of Bones is a three part mini by Steve Niles and Dave Watcher that features a Golem protecting a small Jewish village during WWII. Baltimore by Mike Mignola and Benstenbeck is a brilliant love letter to Dracula, the Universal and Hammer Monster Movies and everything else that goes bump in the night. Non-fiction is seldom a popular genre in comics but if you haven't read Ed Piskor's Hip Hop Family Tree then you're really missing out as it provides an intimate look at the evolution of Hip-Hop from it's early roots to today in a way that will keep even those not even interested in that genre of music turning the pages. And while yes Planetary was great...you know what books weren't good in that decade? Bill Jemas' Marville Chuck Austin's X-Men Countdown: Arena Ultimates:3 Image United Tarot Trouble Ultimatum Onslaught Reborn Our Worlds at War...and those are just off the top of my head. Any decade is a mixed bag when it comes to quality. None of the books you mention, and I've read all but two of those mentioned, come even close. Not gideon Falls, or ANYTHING that Crime Inc team put out, as much as I love his work... that is like on par with The Samdman Myster Theater... not Five Ghosts etc. So this is "a real critique"™. The Roger Ebert of comic book criticism.
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Post by mrbrklyn on Jul 13, 2019 11:35:23 GMT -5
So no to peer reviewed, scholarly articles that say that one era's artistic output is objectively superior to anothers then? With regard that the late 1980's and 1990's into the early 2000's was a objectively a golden age of comic quality, and far greater than anything produuced now - I have only three more words for your consideration Morrison - Doom Patrol.
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