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Post by Reptisaurus! on Jan 4, 2019 7:09:25 GMT -5
I think that's they key. It was a critique of the industry and genre as a whole, not really of Hal Jordan. He merely represented the institution and, as he had a title no one was reading anyway, why not give Adams and O'Neil the space to do it there? One can read it that way. And if you do that’s fine. I see no indication that O’Neil was enough of a writer to do something that symbolic or metatextual. Not that one can’t read in more than the author actually wrote. Ooh. I might have some of the details wrong but I definitely think O'Neil and Adams were drawing a line or stylistic demarcation between what they were doing with Green Lantern and what Broome and Fox et al. had done with Green Lantern previously. These thesis-statement issues signalling a completely new tone for an ongoing series were in fashion at DC. Orlando's House of Mystery was the most dramatic example, but the costume-less Teen Titans, Metal Men and Wonder Woman all happened at about the same time as the GL/GA reboot. Anyway, is the artist always conscious of what they're doing, and does the creator's intent was? I'm saying "no" and "progressively less so as time goes on and old people forget things."
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Post by rberman on Jan 4, 2019 9:59:23 GMT -5
The comic is heavy handed; but, I think most stories that attempted to address real world concerns had a tendency to be heavy handed, whether comic books, message films (like China Syndrome), tv episodes (like MASH, in later years, or Quincy) or comic books. Comics especially suffer as it is not a subtle medium. Well, the superhero genre, anyway. The problem is not so much the heavy handed way O'Neil voiced things; but, the fact that there is no real debate of the issues. GL ends up being a punching bag, without ever getting to make counter-arguments with a different viewpoint. Ollie was always right and righteous and Hal always had to be brought to the truth. It was rather like Crossfire and Hannity & Colmes, where it is really just a one sided fight, with the other guy there merely to be taken down by the architect of the show (Pat Buchanan and Sean Hannity). The other side never gets to voice a real counter-argument because they have been booked to lose the argument. They are what a "jobber" is in pro wrestling; the guy on tv who loses to make the star look good. Green Arrow is the crusading rebel, like the youth fighting the Establishment. GL was the cop, the symbol of the Establishment. Hal was rarely given a chance to voice anything from his vast and wider experience and maturity, than Ollie, who had been a spoiled rich boy, before finding his cause(s). Hal had been a military officer, test pilot, and intergalactic police officer. he had travelled the globe, the galaxy and time, while Ollie checked his stock prices. That never got brought up, because O'Neil was voicing his much younger point of view. Go 20 years down the road and have him do the same thing and it is much different. Right. Denny O'Neil was not exploring these issues himself. He had already decided what the right answer was, and GL's job was to present the voice of authority so that GA could knock it down. This was very much in the zeitgeist of 1970, with Viet Nam as the counterculture's Exhibit A for "Why you shouldn't trust The Man." The civil rights movement was pivoting from addressing overt "I hate black people" racism to examining endemic systems with racist consequences. I posted this in another thread, but it's relevant here as well: Grant Morrison's comments about this story arc in general, and the "purple skins" comment in particular.
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Post by Prince Hal on Jan 4, 2019 12:02:48 GMT -5
I’ve written about this run before (in the Top 100 Comic sagas thread back in 2017) , so to save time and mistyping, please allow me first to quote myself. ☺ I know, I know… these are issue-of-the-month morality plays replete with ladlefuls of leftover 60’s liberal pieties, overtly obvious analogues and a tendency toward preachiness.
HOW-ever, I’m going to have to pull rank and haul out the old, “Ya hadda be there” response.
Nobody in mainstream comics was doing anything close to what Adams and O’Neil were attempting here. We’d already seen O’Neil’s naturalistic stories and Adams’ photo-realistic style resurrect “The” Batman, and when O’Neil let his freak flag fly about so many issues that were dividing the country -- governmental corruption, racism, environmental destruction, pollution, women’s lib, conformity in a culture driven by consumption, the trial of the Chicago Eight (!), and of course, drug addiction – readers like me were first stunned and then elated.
By “readers like me,” I mean teenagers who had been set adrift by the sea-change that had begun with the JFK assassination. Thanks in large part to the power of the press, much that we had taken for granted about our country and our culture had been exposed as hollow pretense and we found ourselves on the other side of a deep divide. Realizing that you’ve been lied to, or that you just hadn’t been paying attention, made “readers like me” that much more receptive to O’Neil, Adams and their four-color pilgrims’ progress.
To see two DC heroes, who were so “establishment” that they made the Anderson family in “Father Knows Best” look like the Manson Family, and particularly two than whom no one had been stodgier, hit the road Easy Rider style to “look for America” was mind-blowing, if I may use a quaint expression.
Read it as a story created in reaction to a tumultuous time and you can forgive at least some of O’Neil’s ham-fisted characterization and melodramatic missteps. Adams’ art, though, is less of its time; in fact, I think it far outshines most of the work he's done in the years since. In Green Arrow’s facial expressions, he captures perfectly the anger and frustration many readers felt; in Green Lantern’s face and body language, he caught equally well the sense of bewilderment and disillusionment others felt at noticing “The Man” behind the curtain.
And I still think that the old black man, forever, ironically, and appropriately nameless, who confronts Green Lantern so simply and so eloquently is one of the greatest of all comic book characters.
I still feel this way. Yes, Hal Jordan had saved the world countless times, but his confrontation with the nameless black man didn’t negate all that he had done. Rather, it highlighted how his God’s-eye view of the world insured that he never saw what was staring him in the face every single day that he walked the streets of Coast City. This was a guy, remember, who could zip between dimensions, roam the universe, and do all the other traditional super-heroic things, but had never had it occur to him that he might also use a portion of that ring-power to make life a little better for the people living right down the street who had it worse than he did. O’Neil was, in his own clumsy way, force-feeding "relevance" into comics, yes, but he was also doing what would later be hailed as deconstruction, taking a stab at what has by now become a staple of comic books: what would be the “real world” role of a super-powered being? Granted, Green Lantern was a title that centered around space-spanning, extra-dimensional adventures, not street-level crime, but the interest in that type of comic was plummeting. Remember, O'Neil was doing all this in a comic destined for cancellation because of poor sales. This was an “If we’re going down, we're goin' down in flames” kind of moment, after all. And, let's face it, "No Evil Shall Escape My Sight" wasn't some artsy, ironic quotation O'Neil made up to suit his thematic purpose; he was holding GL to the letter of his own law. Was he violating GL’s pre-established character? No more, I’d argue than John Broome had done when he turned test pilot Jordan into tourist guide/pilot Jordan, then into insurance adjustor Jordan, or than Gardner Fox had done when he subsequently turned him into an insurance salesman, and then into a toy salesman, all in the space of two years. And if he was indeed the Dharma bum Gaiman calls him in the excerpt quoted by rberman , a wandering searcher bouncing from job to job, an epiphany like the one he experiences in GL 76 ain’t exactly out of the ordinary. I'm not suggesting at all that Broome and Fox saw it that way, but as some have said, a writer’s intent and the perceived result aren’t always the same thing. To aggrandize that run of GL is a mistake, okay, but to minimize it is also a mistake. PS: Unrelated, but related: weren’t Fox and other longtime DC employees let go because of their demands for a health insurance plan?
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jan 4, 2019 12:39:05 GMT -5
PS: Unrelated, but related: weren’t Fox and other longtime DC employees let go because of their demands for a health insurance plan? There was definitely a move by older writers to get health insurance and possibly form a guild. I don't recall if Fox was involved or not and none of my books are near my desk at work. It's likely. But this was also around the time he started publishing a ton of prose work. It's possible that he wrote the prose stuff as the comics work dried up...I just don't remember. But, yeah...you're right about the health insurance thing. Arnold Drake was also part of that.
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Post by Prince Hal on Jan 4, 2019 13:10:28 GMT -5
PS: Unrelated, but related: weren’t Fox and other longtime DC employees let go because of their demands for a health insurance plan? There was definitely a move by older writers to get health insurance and possibly form a guild. I don't recall if Fox was involved or not and none of my books are near my desk at work. It's likely. But this was also around the time he started publishing a ton of prose work. It's possible that he wrote the prose stuff as the comics work dried up...I just don't remember. But, yeah...you're right about the health insurance thing. Arnold Drake was also part of that. A quick check showed that, yes, he was part of that group. DC froze him out in ‘68, which is when and perhaps why his prose output increased.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jan 4, 2019 13:15:46 GMT -5
Yeah, Fox, Broome, Drake. That was why Drake went to Marvel and Fox did a few stories for Roy Thomas, who respected his work in both comics and prose.
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Post by MDG on Jan 4, 2019 13:28:55 GMT -5
HOW-ever, I’m going to have to pull rank and haul out the old, “Ya hadda be there” response. I propose a rule where whenever there's an overlong argument on the board about comics that are more than 30 years old, someone who bought them off the stands can say “Ya hadda be there” and the subject is closed.
I'm only half kidding.
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Post by Prince Hal on Jan 4, 2019 13:52:53 GMT -5
HOW-ever, I’m going to have to pull rank and haul out the old, “Ya hadda be there” response. I propose a rule where whenever there's an overlong argument on the board about comics that are more than 30 years old, someone who bought them off the stands can say “Ya hadda be there” and the subject is closed.
I'm only half kidding.
Made me laugh out loud. No, for real.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jan 4, 2019 14:10:36 GMT -5
HOW-ever, I’m going to have to pull rank and haul out the old, “Ya hadda be there” response. I propose a rule where whenever there's an overlong argument on the board about comics that are more than 30 years old, someone who bought them off the stands can say “Ya hadda be there” and the subject is closed.
I'm only half kidding.
Having had that argument about Watchmen like a couple hundred times...I don't necessarily disagree.
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,874
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Post by shaxper on Jan 4, 2019 14:35:49 GMT -5
I propose a rule where whenever there's an overlong argument on the board about comics that are more than 30 years old, someone who bought them off the stands can say “Ya hadda be there” and the subject is closed. I'm only half kidding.
Having had that argument about Watchmen like a couple hundred times...I don't necessarily disagree. Conversation in this community is about to dry up fast
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Post by Icctrombone on Jan 4, 2019 14:49:28 GMT -5
I think it's still special. And I WAS there.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jan 4, 2019 14:50:30 GMT -5
The Speedy drug story is not dated in any way.
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,874
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Post by shaxper on Jan 4, 2019 14:51:18 GMT -5
I think it's still special. And I WAS there. I think it's still special. And I WASN'T there
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Post by Icctrombone on Jan 4, 2019 14:53:20 GMT -5
shaxper, the only complaint I keep hearing is about the black skins scene.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jan 4, 2019 14:58:56 GMT -5
shaxper , the only complaint I keep hearing is about the black skins scene. Give it time.
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