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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2019 7:34:46 GMT -5
On the letters pageFuture pro Ralph Macchio grapes about the unstable creative crew, and the editors respond proudly that Englehart and Trimpe are "back together permanently." William Nutt complains about getting Bill Mantlo instead of the promised Englehart in issue 4; the editors shrug it off and encourage focusing on the future. Mark Long wants to see this become a rotating team-up book like MTU (this was likely a very common desire among the readers), but since the creative crew clearly doesn't want to do that, he encourages better scripting. He also wants Fu Manchu. The response: Englehart plans to use Fu as a guest in another of his comics, not this one. Did this happen? I don't remember Fu Manchu cropping up outside of Master of Kung Fu. They also don't rule out bringing in other villains to co-star, but currently "we really dig Doc and Subby." They admit they don't want to fall back into the "my ally/my enemy trip" that brought previous stories repeatedly back to the same point. They think the new direction will avoid that. I appreciate you sharing details about the letters page (you are taking to a letters page addict here!). I wasn't around when these comics were published, but had I been, I'd have been one requesting it become a rotating team-up book. It gets back to my point about, and I am only semi-serious, false advertising. "Doc Doom & Subby Monthly" is what it should have been called. Super-Villain Team-Up is not what it was due to a) Namor not being a supervillain, and b) not showcasing a wider range of villain team-ups early on. I'd have loved to have seen standalone stories such as Kingpin/Green Goblin or Doom/Mandarin. Team-up is a precarious word for villains as they are more often than not manipulating each other or plotting something. From Doom's perspective, NO-ONE is teaming up with him, they are working FOR HIM. But that aside, some variety would have been preferable. The fact that it was probably a common desire among readers, and no doubt many such letters were sent, says it all. |
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Post by MWGallaher on Feb 10, 2019 9:26:13 GMT -5
I'm sure the desire for issue-to-issue continuity was a driver steering them away from one-shot team-ups, since that's the one thing that has been consistent through its run to this point. Marvel Team-Up was the only mainstream Marvel comic I can think of at this time that was frequently "done in one", and none of the super-villain options were going to have the reader appeal that Spider-Man had. But Marvel Two-In-One would be a good model, and as we shall see, SVTU would turn in that direction, trying a focus on Dr. Doom, with a background thread linking the run, with rotating guest villains slotted in as co-stars. It could be that they figured Doom had the greater appeal, or that they were trying to find a way to return Namor to solo status, or that they were as uneasy at labeling Namor a super-villain as some readers were.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Feb 10, 2019 10:55:20 GMT -5
That... that was not the surprise guest star I was expecting. Lemme guess...Spider-Man? Or else Spiro Agnew. |
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Post by Hoosier X on Feb 10, 2019 13:05:13 GMT -5
On the letters pageFuture pro Ralph Macchio grapes about the unstable creative crew, and the editors respond proudly that Englehart and Trimpe are "back together permanently." William Nutt complains about getting Bill Mantlo instead of the promised Englehart in issue 4; the editors shrug it off and encourage focusing on the future. Mark Long wants to see this become a rotating team-up book like MTU (this was likely a very common desire among the readers), but since the creative crew clearly doesn't want to do that, he encourages better scripting. He also wants Fu Manchu. The response: Englehart plans to use Fu as a guest in another of his comics, not this one. Did this happen? I don't remember Fu Manchu cropping up outside of Master of Kung Fu. They also don't rule out bringing in other villains to co-star, but currently "we really dig Doc and Subby." They admit they don't want to fall back into the "my ally/my enemy trip" that brought previous stories repeatedly back to the same point. They think the new direction will avoid that. I appreciate you sharing details about the letters page (you are taking to a letters page addict here!). I wasn't around when these comics were published, but had I been, I'd have been one requesting it become a rotating team-up book. It gets back to my point about, and I am only semi-serious, false advertising. "Doc Doom & Subby Monthly" is what it should have been called. Super-Villain Team-Up is not what it was due to a) Namor not being a supervillain, and b) not showcasing a wider range of villain team-ups early on. I'd have loved to have seen standalone stories such as Kingpin/Green Goblin or Doom/Mandarin. Team-up is a precarious word for villains as they are more often than not manipulating each other or plotting something. From Doom's perspective, NO-ONE is teaming up with him, they are working FOR HIM. But that aside, some variety would have been preferable. The fact that it was probably a common desire among readers, and no doubt many such letters were sent, says it all. I remember Fu Manchu appearing once outside of Master of Kung Fu. It was an issue of Iron Man during the Super-Villain War and it was just one panel. One of the participating villains (I think it was Modok) was listening to his agents reporting on what the other villains were doing. And there was a series of three one-panel flashbacks with each villain telling the Black Lama to take his globe and stuff it. I think it was Dr. Doom, the Red Skull and Fu Manchu. |
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Post by MWGallaher on Feb 10, 2019 17:05:23 GMT -5
Super-Villain Team-Up #7, August, 1976, 17 pages “Who Is..The Shroud?” Marv Wolfman, editor Steve Englehart, writer Herb Trimpe, artist Pablo Marcos, inker Jean Hipp, letterer “Hugh Paley” (yeah, right!), colorist  Cover by Rich Buckler and Klaus Janson Summary:
The FF depart Castle Doom, where the two doctors (Doom and Kissinger) continue to discuss the non-aggression pact. Johnny and Ben object, but Reed insists on obeying the government official, noting that the FF has had the confidence of every president from Kennedy to Ford (they weren’t afraid to establish real world timelines back then, but the FF were a mere 14 or so years old at the time!).  Doom admits that America’s deal is good for them only in the short run, but implies that once he’s conquered the rest of the world… Namor retreats to his prison, where The Shroud reveals himself, and shares his origin…an origin that might seem, uh, a bit familiar to veteran comic book readers:  The Shroud caps off his training with a stint in the Cult of Kali, in the Himalayas, where his initiation concludes in the “kiss of Kali”, blinding him, but leaving him with some sort of mystical sight that works in light or darkness.  The Shroud’s goal is to kill Dr. Doom, to make his name as a superhero. While Namor is skeptical, The Shroud promises to do the deed before dawn. Elsewhere, Reed leads the FF to Hydrobase to warn the Hydro-Men, Tamara, and Namorita of…something… Doom, meanwhile, takes his pack of wolves out for a walk, pausing to invoke a very unseemly privilege at a local inn:  The lass Gretchen escapes Doom’s unwelcome advances thanks to the intrusion of The Shroud, who is able to counter Doom’s every attack with the help of gimmicks like his “bomb-a-rang”. In open defiance of his government’s peace treaty, The Shroud heats Doom’s armor with a magnesium bomb. When Doom sheds his chest plate, he is attacked by his own wolves who drive him over a cliff. The Shroud returns to Namor, declaring Doom dead, and setting the Sub-Mariner free. Free, however, with no further access to Doom’s antidote which had been restoring his air-breathing abilities. So the plan is to return to Reed Richards, who was already close on a solution to Namor’s problem a couple of issues ago. Is Doom really dead? Of course not…he awakens to find that he has somehow been taken to Hydrobase, where the Atlanteans had rescued him from the bottom of a Latverian river. The tables have turned, and Doom is now the captive! In the letters page, there’s praise for The Shroud and the new team, including Herb Trimpe. Alas, the editors inform us—Happy Herbie is on his way out, to be replaced by Jim Starlin and Steve Leialoha! Well, that was the plan, but don’t anybody get your hopes up, because (spoiler) it ain’t gonna happen. K. J. Robbins was praying for the book to be cancelled (that’s a little harsh!) until Englehart came to the rescue, and Ralph Macchio returns to the page to ask for a resolution to the dangling Hydrobase subplots. Coming right up, Ralph! Comments:
First of note, Henry Kissinger is identified by name this time around, which is a little surprising. Usually the comics of the era were a little more coy with real life characters, especially when clear political criticism is intended. Reed comes off as the voice of the conservative establishment, Johnny and Ben as the left, and Sue as the moderate. But Reed’s side trip to Hydrobase suggests that maybe he’s not as compliant as he seems. We’ll have to wait and see, since his warning remains hidden from the reader. I don’t know what Englehart was thinking with The Shroud. In those days, creator incentives weren’t in place, so introducing a blatant Batman impersonator who couldn’t be capitalized on as well outside of the comics might not have seemed a big deal, but it’s still a waste of a pretty cool character name, which aren’t that easy to come by. Could he have considered this some kind of audition for the real thing, which he would soon be tackling to great acclaim? That seems unlikely. I have to assume he just wanted to write Batman vs. Dr. Doom, and this was the only way it was likely to ever happen, so far as he knew. Or, perhaps it’s a commentary on the unlikelihood that will power and dedication could forge a hero capable of taking on the biggest of the bads? No, the Batman of that era wasn’t the unbeatable Dark Knight that he was yet to become..and besides, The Shroud does in fact take down Doom pretty handily (although it’s unclear whether the wolf attack was something The Shroud caused or just a lucky break). And while The Shroud was suggested in earlier issues to have some particular beef with Doom that suggested an intertwined back story, we find out instead that he simply wants to take on Doom in order to establish his reputation as one of the top-string superheroes. That’s a bit disappointing, and unconvincing. You can’t argue with results, though, and even if he did get a lucky break, he was handling Doom with as much success as any of Doom’s opponents, so maybe it was a good plan after all. Trimpe, now teamed with yet another inker, delivers another satisfying set of pages—nothing really spectacular, but lively and bold. Doom’s behavior with Gretchen is pretty shocking from modern perspectives, and I think most would agree it’s wildly out of character for Doom to use his authority for sexual assault. Pretty icky stuff, even if our new hero interrupts Doom’s unfinished threat: “The hounds know their master! And you, Gretchen! Do you know—” Evidently, Englehart was setting up the wolves turning on Doom, just as Gretchen would have had she seen the opportunity. So I have to assume now that The Shroud didn’t have anything to do with their attack, after all.
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Post by chaykinstevens on Feb 10, 2019 17:47:45 GMT -5
I recall that Weiss was once on tap to do a Sub-Mariner revival series that never came about, which is too bad--he'd have been terrific. Weiss had earlier drawn a nice Namor six-pager in Sub-Mariner #54. link |
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Feb 10, 2019 18:02:18 GMT -5
Was the Shroud a blatant Batman imitator?
It's not like Batman was particularly original when he was invented. He's the most prominent representative of the low-powered hero type, but Batman is also one out of a kajillion. If anything, the "blind" part of the Shroud's origin puts him closer to Daredevil, while personality-wise and name-wise the Shroud feels closest to the Shadow.
(I'll take the Shroud over Batman any day!)
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Post by chaykinstevens on Feb 10, 2019 18:02:24 GMT -5
I remember Fu Manchu appearing once outside of Master of Kung Fu. It was an issue of Iron Man during the Super-Villain War and it was just one panel. One of the participating villains (I think it was Modok) was listening to his agents reporting on what the other villains were doing. And there was a series of three one-panel flashbacks with each villain telling the Black Lama to take his globe and stuff it. I think it was Dr. Doom, the Red Skull and Fu Manchu. Your memory is spot on. It was in Iron Man #74. Steve Englehart says on his website that he provided uncredited co-plotting on IM #73-75, 77, 80 & 81. |
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Post by MWGallaher on Feb 10, 2019 21:07:32 GMT -5
Was the Shroud a blatant Batman imitator? It's not like Batman was particularly original when he was invented. He's the most prominent representative of the low-powered hero type, but Batman is also one out of a kajillion. If anything, the "blind" part of the Shroud's origin puts him closer to Daredevil, while personality-wise and name-wise the Shroud feels closest to the Shadow. (I'll take the Shroud over Batman any day!) Well, Englehart added a twist, but that flashback sequence was pretty clearly intended to specifically evoke the familiar 2-page Batman origin (not just the murder of his parents, but the boy praying, doing chemistry, exercising--all direct lifts), and he did have a Shroud-plane, and was throwing "bomb-a-rangs", so I don't think there's any doubt that the similarity was intentional. Even the script directly echoes Batman: "master scientist", "amazing athlete"...  |
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Post by berkley on Feb 10, 2019 22:49:36 GMT -5
Was the Shroud a blatant Batman imitator? It's not like Batman was particularly original when he was invented. He's the most prominent representative of the low-powered hero type, but Batman is also one out of a kajillion. If anything, the "blind" part of the Shroud's origin puts him closer to Daredevil, while personality-wise and name-wise the Shroud feels closest to the Shadow. (I'll take the Shroud over Batman any day!) Well, Englehart added a twist, but that flashback sequence was pretty clearly intended to specifically evoke the familiar 2-page Batman origin (not just the murder of his parents, but the boy praying, doing chemistry, exercising--all direct lifts), and he did have a Shroud-plane, and was throwing "bomb-a-rangs", so I don't think there's any doubt that the similarity was intentional. Even the script directly echoes Batman: "master scientist", "amazing athlete"... Makes you wonder what Englehart had in mind for the character down the road, if anything - Marvel's Batman? Batman done right? a critical look at the DC character? or just a one-off, a fun riff on a famous comic-book icon?
I didn't mind the Shroud but at the same time he never made a big impression. But I remember hardly any details about him at this point.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Feb 10, 2019 23:27:44 GMT -5
Oh, okay. I've read this comic 4-5 times and totally forgot the origin parallelism.
Still the Shroud never felt particularly Batman-esque to me. Neither did Nighthawk or Moon Knight, come to think of it.
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Post by chaykinstevens on Feb 11, 2019 17:53:33 GMT -5
Makes you wonder what Englehart had in mind for the character down the road, if anything - Marvel's Batman? Batman done right? a critical look at the DC character? or just a one-off, a fun riff on a famous comic-book icon? Steve Englehart's website says, "But totally related was my creation of the Shroud in #6, to be a third force somewhere between the villains and the heroes. He was a combination of the Shadow and the Batman, both favorites of mine, and since I was a Marvel writer I was never going to get a chance at the real Batman..." Over in the Avengers at this time, Englehart was using the Squadron Supreme to critique the JLA in "20,000 Leagues Under Justice". I think Batman's counterpart, Nighthawk, was absent from that storyline for some reason. |
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Post by Prince Hal on Feb 11, 2019 19:53:54 GMT -5
Makes you wonder what Englehart had in mind for the character down the road, if anything - Marvel's Batman? Batman done right? a critical look at the DC character? or just a one-off, a fun riff on a famous comic-book icon? Steve Englehart's website says, "But totally related was my creation of the Shroud in #6, to be a third force somewhere between the villains and the heroes. He was a combination of the Shadow and the Batman, both favorites of mine, and since I was a Marvel writer I was never going to get a chance at the real Batman..."
Over in the Avengers at this time, Englehart was using the Squadron Supreme to critique the JLA in "20,000 Leagues Under Justice". I think Batman's counterpart, Nighthawk, was absent from that storyline for some reason. Glad that didn't turn out to be true. Mister Engelhart, meet Mr. Rogers and Mr. Austin. |
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Post by MWGallaher on Feb 12, 2019 18:45:09 GMT -5
Super-Villain Team-Up #8, Oct 1976, 17 pages “Escape!” Archie Goodwin, editor Steven Englehart, writer Keith Giffen, breakdowns Owen McCarron, pencils and inks Watanabe & Hipp, letterers Phil Rache, colors  Cover is credited to Marie Severin, pencils and possible inks on GCD, but it looks like more diverse hands in addition to hers—Namor looks like someone either swiping or highly influenced by Gil Kane, possibly Klaus Janson. SummaryWell, it appears I was wrong about Doom’s current location—he’s not on Hydrobase but on the Hydro-Men’s sub in a Latverian river, where Namorita, Tamara, and Joe hold Doom at gunpoint. Reed’s warning of last issue was not, apparently, anything unexpected. He just told them that Namor was Doom’s prisoner. Doom insists that Namor was a guest, and that Doom had agreed to cure the Hydro-Men. Unable to be certain of Doom’s veracity, the sub enters a secret passage, and back in the castle, Doom learns that Namor has escaped:  Doom tells his guests, though, that Namor is simply taking a “constitutional” in one of Latveria’s beautiful lakes! Nita has doubts, and keeps Doom under gunpoint—without his chestplate, a bullet through the heart would kill even the master of menace. The Shroud prepares to take the Sub-Mariner to America, four hours away by Shroud-plane, but the Latverian peasants are torching his aircraft. The Shroud is confident that he can figure something out, but the peasants’ guard dog spots them and attacks. They’ve heard the rumors from Gretchen—these are the ones who’ve killed their master! Namor delays the angry mob with a toss of the dog: The pair escape the mob by crossing and cutting a rope bridge across a ravine. Meanwhile, Doom is at Hydrobase, supposedly preparing the cure in their impressive lab, but actually plotting “Plan Gamma” via radio to his faithful manservant Boris. As evening falls, Namor and Shroud approach a circus tent in a Latverian village, where the Ringmaster and his Circus of Crime are going legit in the Big Top business, safe from extradition to the US. Namor asks the Circus to smuggle them out, but the Ringmaster (whose hypnotic hat is on the fritz) is not anxious to get on Doom’s bad side. At his refusal, Namor loses it and starts a rumble (fortunately for the Circus of Crime, the Sub-Mariner is still weakened, and not operating at top form!). We get to see Namor “blomb” an elephant:  Ringmaster gives in to Namor’s scheme, but the show must go on! With Namor as “The Rajah” and Shroud as a roustabout, the Circus proceeds to give its scheduled performance and parades before…Dr. Doom?! Not so dead after all, Shroud! Unfortunately, this means that Namor must surrender himself, being sworn to Doom’s subservience. The Shrouds says “Not so fast…”  Namor’s out, Shroud’s faced with the Latverian police, and Doom (or is it really Doom?) has him on the spot! Comments:Another editor takes over—the legendary Archie Goodwin! Namor gets the spotlight this time around, and Englehart delivers some engaging developments. We see the glimmer of a resolution to the Hydro-Men plotline, and finally get something a little more akin to the “guest villain” co-stars that readers have been asking for. Yeah, we had Attuma, Tiger-Shark, and Dorcas, but that felt like Sub-Mariner cast members. The Circus of Crime, as Namor notes, are a crew that he hasn’t encountered before, and they do sort of team up here. Although the Circus aren’t really villains here, but a legitimate troupe of entertainers. Englehart’s a lot more deft with reversals of situations than his predecessors on this title have been, but it’s still a hallmark of the series. Now, Doom’s the prisoner…now Namor’s free…now Namor’s giving himself back into slavery…now The Shroud turns on his partner to save them both. This was my favorite issue so far by a big margin. The art wasn’t by the promised Jim Starlin, but by a young Keith Giffen and Owen McCarron. Giffen’s layouts are strong and feel fresh and exciting, drawing inspiration from vets like Kirby and rising stars like Starlin. I wasn’t familiar with McCarron, who evidently had his biggest splash in American comics with Marvel’s long-running Marvel Fun and Games series. The work here is pretty stiff and often amateurish, but Giffen’s layouts—which, to be fair, certainly contribute to the crudity of the figure work—make up for a lot of the weaknesses In the letters page, we learn that this will be the last issue for Steve Englehart, who’s leaving Marvel. (He’ll show up soon at rival DC, where he’ll make an impressive showing on both JLA and Detective Comics. Maybe The Shroud *was* an audition for Batman!) Plans are for Bill Mantlo and Bob Hall to be the new regular team, with a fill-in next time by Bob Brown. Brown, alas, will not be here for that job. He died around this time from leukemia; I don’t know if that was a factor in his not taking on this job, but it seems likely. The letters mostly laud the new direction, without comment from the editors.
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Post by berkley on Feb 12, 2019 18:55:56 GMT -5
I'm almost surprised that Giffen was credited only with the layouts for this issue, because his style seems quite recognisable in these samples.
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