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Post by foxley on Feb 8, 2019 1:21:07 GMT -5
My experience is that fans are most concerned about continuity within their personal experience. If they have never read a story, it doesn't enter in their frame of reference, until someone makes reference to it or draws from it and it somehow upsets their personal apple cart. I'm not sure I agree with that. Speaking as a Dr. Who fan, the vast majority of us have never seen the 'lost' stories, but we still consider "The Daleks' Masterplan", "The Highlanders", "The Underwater Menace" et al as part of the canon.
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Post by codystarbuck on Feb 8, 2019 1:52:13 GMT -5
My experience is that fans are most concerned about continuity within their personal experience. If they have never read a story, it doesn't enter in their frame of reference, until someone makes reference to it or draws from it and it somehow upsets their personal apple cart. I'm not sure I agree with that. Speaking as a Dr. Who fan, the vast majority of us have never seen the 'lost' stories, but we still consider "The Daleks' Masterplan", "The Highlanders", "The Underwater Menace" et al as part of the canon. That's assuming you are aware of those stories. if you've never heard of them, you aren't likely to be upset about a new episode contradicting them, until you are made aware of past continuity. Even then, the level of disturbance is likely to be less than those who were aware of the past story, going into the new one.
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Post by String on Feb 8, 2019 13:18:11 GMT -5
Hm, interesting question. Where comics are concerned, I'm not too picky anymore. As a few others have stated, as long as the story is engaging with art I like, then it doesn't really matter to me how slavish that story is (or isn't) to previous canon. For me, I think a general rule of thumb with the Big Two would be if they at least acknowledged/referenced their most recent history, say the last 10 years or less. If a recent event or major arc is recalled, then fine but if a story is published that contains a scene that contradicts something Lee/Kirby did over 40 years ago (especially if it's something I've never read or even knew existed), then no it doesn't bother me in the slightest.
Now as for other fandoms, sure I think canon is important especially if those franchises have been around for some time. Trek's canon, for the most part, has been broadly consistent over the decades, following a progressive timeline. There's been hiccups along the way (like the changing appearance of the Klingons) and the show itself has tried to address some of them beyond fan theories. Abrams' films, with their alternate timeline, introduced a kink though that has introduced new debates over the relative quality of this new timeline versus the more traditional canon.
Star Wars had a wonderful expanded EU canon that ran for over 20 years until the Mouse upended it all to go in a different direction. Now comparisons/debates crop up over the differences and merits between the two (IMHO, the two sequels fail miserably)
However, those two fandoms are pale shadows when it comes to Who fandom. No other fandom that I have encountered in RL and online is more opinionated, stubborn, obstinate, and passionate that Doctor Who fans. I tend to think of Who canon as being far more looser than Star Wars and Trek though. The changing nature of the lead role obviously leads to debate on the quality and merits of each actor. For a show featuring a time traveler, the linear history of the Whoniverse can be muddy (Lance Parkin's AHistory books which attempt to provide a linear timeline of the show is in it's fourth updated edition so far I think? Lots of footnotes to it, that's for sure). And that's not even getting into the minutia of behind the scenes where production staff such as writers, directors, and producers are debated over their quality and flaws. I think the changing nature of the show itself lends to a more fluid canon that can be argued upon fervently by a devoted fan base.
Perhaps another example of this though pertains to my current reading, REH's Conan. I recently acquired the third Del Rey collection of Howard's stories, The Conquering Sword of Conan (for I own the previous two volumes as well). The intro of the book makes an interesting argument in regards to fan (and fellow writers) tendency to group these stories into a rough linear chronology. Since Conan began as a reaver and thief and ultimately became a king, the underlying need is there is try and present these stories in a fashion that would follow that progression. Even though this would seemingly contradict Howard's original intent of presenting these tales simply as someone regaling you the reader of their adventures from various points in their life with no clear cut linear thought. In this case, under this argument, a canon appeared to be forced upon a character through fans' belief that Conan's story had a definitive beginning (barbarian), middle (reaver, pirate, mercenary) and end (king) even though the stories themselves apparently give no such hint to a straight linear progression (least of all how they were published and released).
I find that very interesting. How such expectations may play upon another fictional character, Bond, I don't know for I've read even less of Fleming's original novels. My only quirk with the Bond films is, are the different actors all playing the same Bond or (as one fan theory I recall reading) are they playing different men who assume the name and identity of Bond?
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Post by brutalis on Feb 8, 2019 13:54:55 GMT -5
These days for being focused on "continuity" is no doubt an obsessive/compulsive disorder. There is no way to resolve canon versus continuity when a writer of today insists to having "their" spin of a prior story so as to add or change the existing story. It has all become one big convoluted mess whether it is comics, movie, television, books or in anything else.
I prefer anymore to admire a story for it's own sake if it entertains me. If it comes across as outright dumb or unnecessary I will ignore it.
I don't need to have a reason why Klingon's have no skull crests in TOS and then they do in movies and Next Generation. I prefer Worf's statement: WE DON'T DISCUSS IT. Has the Doctor been a woman before even though never shown or seen? It is wrong only if the current writer chose to insert that idea, changing the original intention that every version of the Doctor has been counted as 1 regeneration since Hartnell as the original and he "was" allotted 7 and that was rewritten/explained to allow for creating more. If he was a woman in a prior regeneration then that changes the already "explained" canon. Too many people trying to alter something just for the sake of their own interpretation makes canon a thing which is no longer consistent and more a thing in constant flux.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2019 14:04:07 GMT -5
Regarding Doctor Who, that's a minefield due to time travel. I mean, take the Daleks. The first time we see them is in the second serial, "The Daleks" (1963). They appeared old and tired (so to speak). The end of days for them? It seemed that way. Skaro appeared to be on its "last legs", too. From those Daleks' perspective, it was their first encounter with the Doctor. But isn't the 'first' time the Doctor encounters them in "Genesis of the Daleks"?
So from the Daleks' perspective, their first encounter with the Doctor is in "Genesis".
Do I even know what I am going on about? I doubt it...
My point is, I try not to get too hung up on Doctor Who continuity because of it's non-linear nature. It's linear to us, as far as the episodes are presented, but the Doctor is a non-linear being.
As for the fan theory about Bond, it falls down due to Bond's wife, Tracy. It was Lazenby's Bond that married her in OHMSS. But in the next film, Diamonds Are Forever, an angry and vengeful 007, played by Connery, is on Blofeld's trail. In For Your Eyes Only, Bond, played by Roger Moore, puts flowers on Tracy's grave. And in Licence To Kill, Bond, played by Timothy Dalton, is uncomfortable when marriage is mentioned (Felix tells his new bride how Bond was once married).
If it was a codename, and we assumed each actor was a different Bond, why would Moore's Bond have put flowers on the grave of his predecessor's wife? Why would Dalton's Bond be so sore about marriage prior to Felix's comments?
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Post by MDG on Feb 8, 2019 14:07:04 GMT -5
Phillip Jose Farmer wrote two fictional biographies (Tarzan Alive! and Doc Savage, His Apocalyptic Life) which tried to create a chronology to those stories and reconcile inconsistencies in continuity. It's been a while, but didn't Farmer essentially say that the Tarzan and Doc Savage books were basically fictionalized accounts of their "real" lives, ranging from fairly close to totally "fiction"? As a long time soaper I'd say there are a fair number of continuity buffs for soap operas, some are very into the history and details to a degree that is impressive. I'm just enough of one that when they go totally against character as established without solid reasons I get disgruntled the same as I might with comic book characters. I don't watch U.S. soaps though (unless vintage Dark Shadows counts) but I do like a good parody (Mary Hartman, Soap). I can put up with a different actor taking over a role much easier than writing that does harm to the known character's credibility. Soap fans don't seem to get as many places to express themselves as comic readers however. I remarked to a friend of mine a couple years ago that essentially soap operas inherited the earth. It seems audiences want every TV show, movie, comic to be a continuing story now.
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Post by codystarbuck on Feb 8, 2019 14:13:35 GMT -5
Phillip Jose Farmer wrote two fictional biographies (Tarzan Alive! and Doc Savage, His Apocalyptic Life) which tried to create a chronology to those stories and reconcile inconsistencies in continuity. It's been a while, but didn't Farmer essentially say that the Tarzan and Doc Savage books were basically fictionalized accounts of their "real" lives, ranging from fairly close to totally "fiction"? As a long time soaper I'd say there are a fair number of continuity buffs for soap operas, some are very into the history and details to a degree that is impressive. I'm just enough of one that when they go totally against character as established without solid reasons I get disgruntled the same as I might with comic book characters. I don't watch U.S. soaps though (unless vintage Dark Shadows counts) but I do like a good parody (Mary Hartman, Soap). I can put up with a different actor taking over a role much easier than writing that does harm to the known character's credibility. Soap fans don't seem to get as many places to express themselves as comic readers however. I remarked to a friend of mine a couple years ago that essentially soap operas inherited the earth. It seems audiences want every TV show, movie, comic to be a continuing story now. Essentially, yeah; Farmer basically says the mistakes came from the chroniclers and Greystoke and Savage let it pass. Funny thing, I first discovered Tarzan Alive in the library, as a youngster, and it almost had me believing that Tarzan was based on a real person, just jazzed up for the novels and movies. It took a little time for skepticism to start punching holes in that, plus our World Book Encyclopedia set.
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Post by badwolf on Feb 8, 2019 14:18:09 GMT -5
There have been so many reboots, both soft and hard, in comics that I can't bring myself to care too much about continuity (although I can't say that I wouldn't if I read more new comics.) What I'm more concerned with these days is that characters remain true to themselves. Sure, times and ways of speaking evolve, but Doctor Strange shouldn't sound like Spider-Man.
Like String and TaxiDriver, I see Doctor Who continuity as being malleable because of all the time travel. Who's to say that when the Doctor goes here, something in the universe doesn't shift somewhere else? That's my theory anyway. Also, the universe was rebooted in Matt Smith's era; it was supposed to be exactly the same, but what if it wasn't quite? I'm not saying I'd want blatant disregard for continuity, but that's how I'd explain to myself any glitches here or there.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Feb 8, 2019 14:26:28 GMT -5
Phillip Jose Farmer wrote two fictional biographies (Tarzan Alive! and Doc Savage, His Apocalyptic Life) which tried to create a chronology to those stories and reconcile inconsistencies in continuity. It's been a while, but didn't Farmer essentially say that the Tarzan and Doc Savage books were basically fictionalized accounts of their "real" lives, ranging from fairly close to totally "fiction"? As a long time soaper I'd say there are a fair number of continuity buffs for soap operas, some are very into the history and details to a degree that is impressive. I'm just enough of one that when they go totally against character as established without solid reasons I get disgruntled the same as I might with comic book characters. I don't watch U.S. soaps though (unless vintage Dark Shadows counts) but I do like a good parody (Mary Hartman, Soap). I can put up with a different actor taking over a role much easier than writing that does harm to the known character's credibility. Soap fans don't seem to get as many places to express themselves as comic readers however. I remarked to a friend of mine a couple years ago that essentially soap operas inherited the earth. It seems audiences want every TV show, movie, comic to be a continuing story now. Yep. One of the reasons that Farmer and his Wold-Newton progeny tended to avoid shoe-horning superheroes into the Wold-Newton mythology is because they have had far too many adventures to fit into a lifetime. Even those that he did allow in were with the proviso that most of the adventures were fiction. I do think that newer contributors to the Wold Newton mythology have relaxed the rules.
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Post by beccabear67 on Feb 8, 2019 15:26:00 GMT -5
When continuity works it's a nice bonus, but it does seem like something that can't really last in any form where there are more than one writer. So I can enjoy something like Spider-Man: Chapter One, can but also might not... there was a reboot X-Men starting over at events in the original #1 only in the Image style... Professor Xavier And The X-Men #1 (1995) bloody hated it.
The first reboot was Showcase #4's Flash in 1956. It threw out the old continuity, even showed Barry Allen reading a golden age Flash comic books so at least initially it was saying those old comics were 'just comics' now. Second reboot was captain America in a block of ice maybe? Or Sub-Mariner showing up with a beard and amnesiac in Fantastic four before that? If it makes sense withing it's own title I can enjoy a thing as it's own thing, like Metal men was... they had their own logic and personally I don't think they really made sense intersecting with other titles and characters usually. Cross-over (shared 'universe') stories used to be a lot rarer and more special events... but later they had titles where they did nothing but them. Moving toward fans and continuity and away from casual readers.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2019 15:30:01 GMT -5
When continuity works it's a nice bonus, but it does seem like something that can't really last in any form where there are more than one writer. So I can enjoy something like Spider-Man: Chapter One, can but also might not... there was a reboot X-Men starting over at events in the original #1 only in the Image style... Professor Xavier And The X-Men #1 (1995) bloody hated it. The first reboot was Showcase #4's Flash in 1956. It threw out the old continuity, even showed Barry Allen reading a golden age Flash comic books so at least initially it was saying those old comics were 'just comics' now. Second reboot was captain America in a block of ice maybe? Or Sub-Mariner showing up with a beard and amnesiac in Fantastic four before that? If it makes sense withing it's own title I can enjoy a thing as it's own thing, like Metal men was... they had their own logic and personally I don't think they really made sense intersecting with other titles and characters usually. Cross-over (shared 'universe') stories used to be a lot rarer and more special events... but later they had titles where they did nothing but them. Moving toward fans and continuity and away from casual readers. I would say the first reboot was Superman being Superboy. Although that was a "soft" reboot. Barry Allen Flash was the first "hard" reboot which was revised with the Earth 2 concept several years later.
Marvel handled their Golden Age heroes differently like you stated above.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2019 15:37:40 GMT -5
I would guess any type of serialized fiction be it TV or books etc would have to have some sense of continuity. That would be part of the appeal of a series of episodes or novels.
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Post by foxley on Feb 8, 2019 19:19:51 GMT -5
I certainly want some continuity in my comics. If Green Lantern's power ring does not work on anything yellow, I do not want some lazy writer suddenly having it do so because s/he couldn't be bothered with the most basic research.
(Of course, Stan Lee once had Loki pick up Thor's hammer because he forgot that he had stipulated no one who was not worthy could lift it.)
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Post by berkley on Feb 8, 2019 21:17:00 GMT -5
My favourite piece of comic book Cannon:
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Post by zaku on Feb 9, 2019 4:54:52 GMT -5
Star Trek fans have the same arguments we do about reboots and continuity. Yep! And if you can believe it, Dragonball fans too! :-D
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