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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jun 26, 2020 9:45:54 GMT -5
Identity Crisis It’s was a love letter to the Silver Age for people who don’t what a love letter is or when the Silver Age was. Ic was definitely worse, but it came at a point where I couldn't take the DCU seriously anymore anyway. The Post-Crisis DCU was showing serious potential until suddenly everyone had Manhunters in their supporting cast and origin stories. I'm confused. Was there another Manhunter event that I'm not aware of? Because Millennium came out in 1987 and Identity Crisis didn't happen until the tail end of 2004. Your connection of the two isn't parsing for me.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jun 26, 2020 13:48:39 GMT -5
Ic was definitely worse, but it came at a point where I couldn't take the DCU seriously anymore anyway. The Post-Crisis DCU was showing serious potential until suddenly everyone had Manhunters in their supporting cast and origin stories. I'm confused. Was there another Manhunter event that I'm not aware of? Because Millennium came out in 1987 and Identity Crisis didn't happen until the tail end of 2004. Your connection of the two isn't parsing for me. There was a transition missing somewhere in my above statement. It should have read as, "IC was definitely worse, but it came at a point where I couldn't take the DCU seriously anymore anyway. As for Millennium, The Post-Crisis DCU was showing serious potential until suddenly everyone had Manhunters in their supporting cast and origin stories." What? It's not like I teach English Language Arts for a living or anything...
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jun 26, 2020 14:11:13 GMT -5
I'm confused. Was there another Manhunter event that I'm not aware of? Because Millennium came out in 1987 and Identity Crisis didn't happen until the tail end of 2004. Your connection of the two isn't parsing for me. There was a transition missing somewhere in my above statement. It should have read as, "IC was definitely worse, but it came at a point where I couldn't take the DCU seriously anymore anyway. As for Millennium, The Post-Crisis DCU was showing serious potential until suddenly everyone had Manhunters in their supporting cast and origin stories." What? It's not like I teach English Language Arts for a living or anything... That makes more sense. Millennium still only came out a bit less than two years after Crisis. The post-Crisis DCU had barely had time to begin to coalesce. Particularly since they did it in such an ad hoc manner.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jun 26, 2020 14:15:01 GMT -5
There was a transition missing somewhere in my above statement. It should have read as, "IC was definitely worse, but it came at a point where I couldn't take the DCU seriously anymore anyway. As for Millennium, The Post-Crisis DCU was showing serious potential until suddenly everyone had Manhunters in their supporting cast and origin stories." What? It's not like I teach English Language Arts for a living or anything... That makes more sense. Millennium still only came out a bit less than two years after Crisis. The post-Crisis DCU had barely had time to begin to coalesce. Particularly since they did it in such an ad hoc manner. Superman was (more or less) working. Justice League was working. Suicide Squad was working. Wonder Woman was working. Batman was a mess, but it was a mostly functional mess. The new DC was an exciting place with a lot of potential, and the cracks in the foundation weren't readily apparent yet.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 26, 2020 20:38:25 GMT -5
There was no groundwork laid for Millennium; sudden;y, every book had Manhunter sleeper agents, with most picked for shock value. In the Superman books, it was Lana Lang, for Siegel's sake! Wally's father was revealed as one, in the Flash. Some books used lower tier characters, like Rocket Red #7, in JLI, which enabled him to be replaced by the awesome Dmitri Pushkin (guess it was lucky he wasn't named Nabokov).
It was just a bad idea that was poorly executed and editorial mandated everyone had to play. The only decent components were a section of titles in the middle, with Spectre, Suicide Squad, Detective Comics and Swamp Thing, where they are all in a swamp area, the covers formed a linked image, and they all run across each other. Suicide Squad used it to revive and reform Mark Shaw, who had been messed up by Steve Engleheart in JLA, which provided the backstory for the event. John Ostrander and Kim Yale did some excellent clean-up work on Shaw, with the early Manhunter issues, after the event, before it got bogged down and Doug Rice left.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Jun 26, 2020 21:29:17 GMT -5
I'm totally unfamiliar with DC's late 80s Millennium event, but from what you guys are saying above, it sure sounds like a direct inspiration for Marvel's Secret Invasion event 20 years later in the late 2000s
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 27, 2020 8:24:11 GMT -5
I'm totally unfamiliar with DC's late 80s Millennium event, but from what you guys are saying above, it sure sounds like a direct inspiration for Marvel's Secret Invasion event 20 years later in the late 2000s Same idea, of shocking revelations of long running characters; but, executed differently. Millennium was designed to introduce new characters, who would replace the Guardians of the Universe: The New Guardians. They were humans who were the next stage of evolution and the heroes had to find and protect them from the Manhunters. Problem was, they were dull characters, with derivative names and powers and no real personality, except the "gay Dr Strange". No, that's not a slur, the character was gay and looked like a Dr Strange rip-off. The Manhunter androids had been introduced in JLA as the original agents of the Guardians, who broke programming and became evil. They had returned, just as the Guardians and the Zamarons were leaving to start a sex cult (repopulate, whatever). The New Guardians would be their replacement and the Manhunters saw a chance to take over. Secret Invasion revealed that a bunch of characters that were either dead or mismanaged over the years had actually been replaced by skrulls, so they could be reset to whatever Brian Bendis and Joe Quesada preferred. So, characters like Spider-Woman and Mockingbird got reset. It was part of a block of cheap continuity fixes, like Another Day. I joked it was like the Simpsons' Halloween episode, with Bart & Lisa as superheroes, fighting Comic Book Guy, as The Collector. He kidnaps Xena from a sci-fi convention, to seal her in mylar. At the convention, fans ask plot point-related questions and she answers that any plot holes were the work of wizards. Prof Frink starts asking specifics and Xena answers "wizard" rapidly, to each one. Just substitute "skrull" and you get Secret Invasion.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Jun 27, 2020 8:53:31 GMT -5
I'm totally unfamiliar with DC's late 80s Millennium event, but from what you guys are saying above, it sure sounds like a direct inspiration for Marvel's Secret Invasion event 20 years later in the late 2000s Same idea, of shocking revelations of long running characters; but, executed differently. Millennium was designed to introduce new characters, who would replace the Guardians of the Universe: The New Guardians. They were humans who were the next stage of evolution and the heroes had to find and protect them from the Manhunters. Problem was, they were dull characters, with derivative names and powers and no real personality, except the "gay Dr Strange". No, that's not a slur, the character was gay and looked like a Dr Strange rip-off. The Manhunter androids had been introduced in JLA as the original agents of the Guardians, who broke programming and became evil. They had returned, just as the Guardians and the Zamarons were leaving to start a sex cult (repopulate, whatever). The New Guardians would be their replacement and the Manhunters saw a chance to take over. Ah, I see. I know of The New Guardians because I bought the first 6 or 7 issues of that title off of the newsagent's shelf back in the day. It wasn't a bad series, but eventually I got bored with it and dropped it. I do remember the "gay Dr. Strange" character you refer to, although I'm damned if I can remember his name. I know Secret Invasion well. I was buying the main series and almost all of the tie-ins as it was coming out. I've trimmed my Secret Invasion collection a lot since then, but I still own the core series and a number of the better tie-ins.
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Post by chaykinstevens on Jun 27, 2020 9:26:10 GMT -5
Ah, I see. I know of The New Guardians because I bought the first 6 or 7 issues of that title off of the newsagent's shelf back in the day. It wasn't a bad series, but eventually I got bored with it and dropped it. I do remember the "gay Dr. Strange" character you refer to, although I'm damned if I can remember his name. He was called Extrano, which I believe is Spanish for Strange. Englehart probably intended this as a nod to his 70s work on Dr Strange, but some people took offence because it could also be translated as queer. Englehart's website says the working title for the New Guardians was Trumps, but this was vetoed in case it offended the Donald.
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Post by profh0011 on Jun 27, 2020 9:30:26 GMT -5
"MILLENNIUM" was the point where all that excessive L.S.D. use finally pushed Steve right off a cliff, creatively.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 27, 2020 14:14:20 GMT -5
" MILLENNIUM" was the point where all that excessive L.S.D. use finally pushed Steve right off a cliff, creatively. I don't know if it pushed him off the cliff; but, he was dangling over the side.
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Post by Hoosier X on Jun 27, 2020 18:58:52 GMT -5
I'm confused. Was there another Manhunter event that I'm not aware of? Because Millennium came out in 1987 and Identity Crisis didn't happen until the tail end of 2004. Your connection of the two isn't parsing for me. There was a transition missing somewhere in my above statement. It should have read as, "IC was definitely worse, but it came at a point where I couldn't take the DCU seriously anymore anyway. As for Millennium, The Post-Crisis DCU was showing serious potential until suddenly everyone had Manhunters in their supporting cast and origin stories." What? It's not like I teach English Language Arts for a living or anything... You fail English? That's unpossible! A hard language it indeed is.
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Post by spoon on Jun 27, 2020 19:02:29 GMT -5
New Teen Titans #19 (May 1982) "The Light Fantastic" Script: Marv Wolfman Pencils: George Pérez (breakdowns); Romeo Tanghal (finished art) Inks: Romeo Tanghal Colors: Adrienne Roy Letters: John Costanza Grade: D+ I really don't get the point of this one. Yes, Marv and George were looking to do a few done-in-one stories while planning out their next major arcs, but why a team-up with Hawkman? Especially when Carter is inexplicably missing for much of the issue, apparently because he was putting out a flame on his wing: It took ten pages to do that? It does sort of make Hawkman look incompetent that it takes so long to deal with it. I think this is about drawing out the story. Carter Hall is a museum curator, so that makes him a natural for the villains in this story. But he knows the solution to this threat, so having the fight drawn out for so long requires his vital info to be separated from the Titans. [quoteIt doesn't make any damn sense. Why force a team-up with a character that was up to absolutely nothing in 1982 if you're going to leave him out of most of the issue and then not even have him interact with the Titans in any kind of memorable way.[/quote] My explanaton is above. As to the "up to absolutely nothing", I think it's good to have a variety of guest stars. Gotta give intention to many characters and not just the hottest ones. He's treated as so laughable that he's not even the real threat in an issue where he's the villain. Yes. Is the power in him or in his suit? Also, when he returns to his lair, who left today's newspaper there, waiting for him? I forget if it was really hot or really cold on Tamaran. Haven't we gotten conflicting information on this so far? Seems difficulty for Hawkman to see anything. Does he have to constantly to bend his neck and tilt his eyes to see the part of his field of vision that's not obstructed by the mask? Is the beak one-way transparent? I read this a week or more ago, so just replying now, my memory is fuzzy and comments limited. For some reason, I misremembered this Hindu avatars issue as the one built around a letter from Wally to his parent. Looks like that's actually the next issue.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 28, 2020 11:48:09 GMT -5
Tamaran was a tropical world, according to the Tales of the Teen Titans issue and the storyline where the Titans fight Blackfire and the Gordanians, coming down the road.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jun 28, 2020 15:24:29 GMT -5
It took ten pages to do that? It does sort of make Hawkman look incompetent that it takes so long to deal with it. I think this is about drawing out the story. Carter Hall is a museum curator, so that makes him a natural for the villains in this story. But he knows the solution to this threat, so having the fight drawn out for so long requires his vital info to be separated from the Titans. Fair point that Carter's expertise might cause him to win right away, but why have a guest star in the issue if he's not really IN the issue? Hawkman plays almost no part in the story after the early pages and doesn't even have any meaningful interaction with the Titans. Was this really just about trademark renewal? But then use them meaningfully. Yes, Marv and George have totally waffled on this one.
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