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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 8, 2019 23:39:55 GMT -5
Rude is very open about the Kirby influence and always strived for the Kirby effect, when he worked on his characters (like his retro Marvel books and 4th World stories). Russ Manning is another influence, which is why he jumped at the chance to do a Nexus/Magnus Robot Fighter crossover. Toth is another big one, though as much his work in animation as comics. His big technical influence is Andrew Loomis and his drawing books. He touted those guys in the Steve Rude Sketchbook, that Kitchen Sink put out, back in 1989...  |
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Jul 8, 2019 23:48:37 GMT -5
Steve Rude's style looks like a very conscious tribute or homage to Kirby to me, though I imagine there must be other influences I can't identify at play. It works better for me at some times than at others, though it's almost never something I actively dislike. I assume Toth, because - well, just look at it. I haven't read much of the post Kirby New Gods/Orion stuff, but I'm really liking the samples of Don Newton's art. Maybe I'll scour the dollar bins. |
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Post by MDG on Jul 9, 2019 8:23:33 GMT -5
STEVE RUDE did a couple of really outstanding Fourth World books with Mark Evanier... MISTER MIRACLE SPECIAL (Apr'87) ..... I forgot about that MM special--yeah, I enjoyed that one. Steve Rude's style looks like a very conscious tribute or homage to Kirby to me, though I imagine there must be other influences I can't identify at play. It works better for me at some times than at others, though it's almost never something I actively dislike. One thing that impressed me about that MM special was that Rude was obviously trying to draw "like Kirby," but it felt like he understood Kirby's style (drawing and sorytelling) and applied it. I didn't get the feeling--like I do with Buckler or Frenz--that it was a matter of finding the right panel to swipe. |
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Post by MDG on Jul 9, 2019 8:31:13 GMT -5
Steve Rude's style looks like a very conscious tribute or homage to Kirby to me, though I imagine there must be other influences I can't identify at play. It works better for me at some times than at others, though it's almost never something I actively dislike. I assume Toth, because - well, just look at it. In his painting, it's more Leyendecker, though there are other things as well. |
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Post by profh0011 on Jul 9, 2019 11:50:02 GMT -5
The feeling got-- from that first issue of NEXUS where I was totally hooked-- was that Rude drew "realistic" like Paul Gulacy-- but with the "CLEAN" line style, and sense of EXCITEMENT, and of DESIGN of Kirby. So it's not so much he draws like Kirby, as he thinks like him when he draws.
I totally agree about the Alex Toth thing, too. For much of my life, I was a Toth fan, WITHOUT realizing it. Most of his comics work did NOTHING for me. NOTHING!!! But when I found out he created SPACE GHOST... and THE HERCULOIDS... and worked with Doug Wildey on JONNY QUEST... I sudeenly realized his work had a BIGGER influence on my own work growing up than Kirby's ever did.
I can see the Russ Manning thing, too. My FAVORITE comics version of TARZAN, ever, remains Manning's work on the newspaper strip. I came in near the end, but thanks to the ERBZine site, I was able decades later to read Manning's ENTIRE run on the Sunbay strips.
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Post by chaykinstevens on Jul 9, 2019 15:43:55 GMT -5
I assume Toth, because - well, just look at it. Toth once critiqued Rude's art on Jonny Quest #1. link |
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Post by MDG on Jul 9, 2019 17:48:50 GMT -5
I assume Toth, because - well, just look at it. Toth once critiqued Rude's art on Jonny Quest #1. linkYeah, he was a curmudgeon.
Backing up, here's my Rogers Mr. Miracle page. Coletta inks, but love how Mother Box is portrayed.
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Post by profh0011 on Jul 10, 2019 20:50:21 GMT -5
What bothered me was when Alex Toth passed away... someone used it as an excuse to TEAR Doug Wildey a new one. Completely uncalled-for. Personally, I think Toth resented SPACE GHOST because it was written for kids, whereas Doug Wildey's JONNY QUEST (which Toth worked on) was written for ALL AGES and aired in PRIME TIME.
The sad thing is... which I found out decades later... JQ was intended as a first "experiment" by HB into doing bigger-budgeted shows. Despite consistently HIGH ratings, ABC cancelled it after only one season because they felt it was "too expensive" (the EXACT same fate ABC dumped on BATTLESTAR GALACTICA when they cancelled it halfway thru its "big story").
When JQ was cancelled by ABC, Hanna-Barbera never even tried to do better, more expensive shows again. I've read the opionion that HB and Filmation spent the next 15 years racing to the bottom, each trying to OUT-CHEAP the other on budgets.
And then to add insult to that injury, ABC ran the show for 2 straight years (that's 4 runs for each episode), showing they LIKED the show... they just didn't wanna have to PAY for it. (Bastards.)
And then over the years, JQ wound up being rerun on Saturday mornings... on ALL 3 networks at different times. The really sad point was in the 70s, when the show was CUT TO RIBBONS, and some entire episodes never run at all, due to heavy censorship at that time.
I was so thrilled when Cartoon Network ran a block of "Boomerang" about 15 or more years ago, and I was able to tape the entire series UNCUT... if in a COMPLETELY non-sensical wrong running order. They put it on at 3 IN THE MORNING on Saturday nights. Idiots.
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Post by rberman on Jul 12, 2019 18:36:06 GMT -5
New Gods reprint series #6 “Even Gods Must Die!” (November 1984)
The Story: Despite its length, it’s pretty light on plot. Orion attacks Apokolips to rescue his mother Tigra from Darkseid’s prisons.  In a cameo, the Female Furies get into a spat with Granny Goodness about Darkseid’s new “automate everything” policy. Automation has continued to be a hotly contested process ever since the Industrial Revolution and shows no signs of stopping today. Apparently mid-80s Kirby wanted to speak against it.  Big awesome Toltec-inspired Kirby machines! Who needs a story? This would make a great coloring book.  Darkseid, recognizing the “greatest hits” nature of this story, resurrects lesser versions of Steppenwolf, Desaad, Kalibak, and Mantis to oppose Orion.  Darkseid’s troops fill Orion full of holes, and he falls into a fire pit, presumably killed. But Darkseid is unsettled by the absence of a corpse.  My Two Cents: In 1984, DC reprinted The New Gods on prestige paper, with two of the original eleven issues in each of six new issues. That left room for a new twelfth story in issue #6. This 48 pager is it. An ad in the back touted Kirby’s graphic novel The Hunger Dogs as a “sequel” to the New Gods rather than the continuation or finale. That’s a curious marketing choice, since this story seems far from done here. Still, it was nice to see Kirby get serious about the Orion/Darkseid story that for so long took a back seat to all sorts of other nonsense in the early 1970s. 
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Post by profh0011 on Jul 12, 2019 18:54:34 GMT -5
I have read "ON THE ROAD TO ARMAGETTO" in its original form. It's an amazing story.
Tragically, behind the scenes, DC "editorial" kept hedging their bets, and repeatedly, aggressively SCREWING with Kirby's work. Even in the early 80s, DC-- like Marvel-- STILL did not respect Kirby's work as a writer (or even in some cases as an artist).
I believe "ARMAGETTO" was originally planned as the 12th NEW GODS story for the reprint series. Instead, it was decided to include it within the context of the already-planned "HUNGER DOGS" graphic novel, and then, after-the-fact, have Kirby create a NEW "prologue" to replace "ARMAGETTO" in the 6th issue of the reprint series.
Mike Royer inked "ARMAGETTO". This caused real problems when the decision was made to include it in the graphic novel. Not only did all the pages have to be "re-formatted" to fit the graphic novel, but Greg Theakston, who certain hardcore Kirby fans look on as a con-man opportunist, inked the entire graphic novel, re-inking the pages Royer had originally done and MURDERING them in the process... and then heavily-overdone color was slapped on top of that.
The amazing thing, to me, is that, even knowing HOW MUCH that story was screwed over in multiple ways... because it was Kirby, he still managed to do something worth reading, and the truth is, "THE HUNGER DOGS", despite all the tampering, became one of my favorite Kirby stories ever.
But I do have to wonder how it might have been if those "ARMAGETTO" pages hadn't been re-purposed, re-formatted and re-inked, and included out of sequence.
It's unfortunate I don't have that story posted online at the moment. And I forget where I found the pages. I did once (or was it twice?) re-post them in a Facebook group, several years back.
I think so many people by then had pointed out how various elements of the STAR WARS movies were blatently swiped from Kirby's work (among many other things being swiped), that I've always had a suspicion that Kirby had fun paying tribute to the climax of "THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK" with the climax of "EVEN GODS CAN DIE".
There seemed to be this "legend" that Orion & Darkseid were meant to meet one final time and kill each other. One of the things that delighted me the most was that Kirby had Orion DECIDE not to just blindly follow that "prophecy", and instead... forge his own destiny.
...and then, "Post-Crisis", everybody at DC kept acting like the "end" of Kirby's story had "not happened-- YET". B***S***. The biggest shame about NEW GODS is that Kirby didn't OWN it. But then, that goes for many corporate-owned series.
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Post by MWGallaher on Jul 13, 2019 16:03:14 GMT -5
Mike Royer inked " ARMAGETTO". This caused real problems when the decision was made to include it in the graphic novel. Not only did all the pages have to be "re-formatted" to fit the graphic novel, but Greg Theakston, who certain hardcore Kirby fans look on as a con-man opportunist, inked the entire graphic novel, re-inking the pages Royer had originally done and MURDERING them in the process... and then heavily-overdone color was slapped on top of that. . I've read the original version, too. What really confuses me is that both the New Gods #6 finale and the Hunger Dogs graphic novel are reformatted. Once you know that the panels have all been extended, it's impossible to unsee the weirdness, as demonstrated in the above samples, where none of the word balloons or captions butt up against the panel borders, because additional art has been added all around the original layout. While it doesn't exactly destroy Kirby's compositions, it does damage them; even when his drawing skills began to suffer, he retained an instinctive genius for page design, and these alterations really muck with the balance. I know I read an explanation somewhere as to why all the pages had to be revised to fit in their ultimate publication format, but I can't remember. Maybe the "Even Gods Must Die" was modified to fit the graphic novel format (which had a different width-to-height page ratio) and then the modified pages were squeezed into a regular format comic, while the "Armagetto" pages, drawn to the standard comic format, were expanded to fit the graphic novel? If that was it, they must not have retained publishable scans of the original "Even Gods" story... |
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Post by profh0011 on Jul 13, 2019 21:18:03 GMT -5
There was a LOT of discussion going on about this back at the old Yahoo Group, and someonw posted a pile of side-by-side before-and-after comparison images, showing either Kirby pencils or Kirby inked by Royer-- and compared with what Greg Theakston did. The word "mutilation" comes to mind. Somehow, EVERY time he changed a figure, or a pose, or a FACE... it just lost most of its character.
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Post by rberman on Jul 14, 2019 7:11:15 GMT -5
There was a LOT of discussion going on about this back at the old Yahoo Group, and someonw posted a pile of side-by-side before-and-after comparison images, showing either Kirby pencils or Kirby inked by Royer-- and compared with what Greg Theakston did. The word "mutilation" comes to mind. Somehow, EVERY time he changed a figure, or a pose, or a FACE... it just lost most of its character. As seen in the above pages, Kirby's usual blockiness appears to have been rounded off. It's someone else's art style entirely, and I'm surprised that anyone would have done such a thing, or that DC wouold have tolerated it. I guess once it was done, it was done. |
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Post by rberman on Jul 14, 2019 19:30:21 GMT -5
DC Graphic Novel #4 “The Hunger Dogs!” (March 1985) The Story: On Apokolips, Darkseid’s troops quell an insurrection of plebian “Hunger Dogs.” A scientists proposes a new sonic weapon which Darkseid finds lacking. He’s disgusted enough to facepalm. More terror required!  Orion has survived being shot up by Darkseid’s troops in the previous story. Somehow he ends up being tended and protected by Himon, last seen in Mister Miracle #9. Orion and Himon’s daughter Bekka have fallen in love at some point.  Next, Himon steals one of Darkseid’s Micro-Marks, a skull-shaped circuit with immense destructive power. Darkseid disables it remotely and prepares more similar devices for an attack on New Genesis.  Lonar shows up on New Genesis in his Thor cosplay. Izaya chides him for dressing up like the “Elder Gods,” i.e. the Norse pantheon. They and Lightray discuss all these Micro-Marks that keep popping up on New Genesis. They are clearly bombs. Maybe Highfather should collect them and send them back to Apokolips to explode there? The use of Boom Tubes to deliver ordinance is a pretty obvious military tactic, but for some reason, sci fi stories with teleportation technology rarely go there.  Lightray takes a trip to Apokolips to say “Hi” to Orion, Himon, and Bekka, then returns home. It's pretty much just a filler action sequence so he doesn't get left out of the story. Oberon has become disenchanted with the idea of warfare. That doesn’t stop him from fighting, though. He leads an insurrection of Hunger Dogs to challenge Darkseid.   Darkseid’s weapons-maker is revealed as Ezak, once Izaya’s young protégé, now a shriveled, bitter, bald gnome after a venture with Metron has gone awry, and Metron has vanished.  Orion vanquishes Ezak but then mourns his death, which returns Ezak to his fair childhood appearance.  Orion returns to Himon’s home and allows Bekka to see his “ugly face,” but she doesn’t care. She loves the soul within! This seems like a pretty transparent love letter to Roz. The Hunger Dogs, freaked out by the prospect of total destruction, rebel fully and destroy the Micro-Mark factory. Darkseid is forced to withdraw, but not before tracking down and then gunning down Himon with a laser gun that seems beneath him.  But Orion has rescued his mother Tigra finally. They and Bekka fly away to New Genesis, which now exists only as the floating city, bereft of its planet. The final splash page shows Metron towing a new planet to meet them. Happy ending! But Darkseid stands in the ruins of Apokolips, promising to rebuild. My Two Cents: Some of this material was originally slated for a comic book series which DC rejected, combined with material composed specifically for the graphic novel. Pages with dialogue near the edges of the page were originally for the graphic novel. Pages without dialogue near the page borders had been enlarged by Kirby with the addition of extra art to fill the white space on the now-larger pages. Mike Royer had inked the original smaller pages, while D. Bruce Berry inked the new pages and the new borders on the old pages in a lighter style, resulting in a mild clash of art. But overall, this series looks great and benefits from the nicer colors of the graphic novel format.  Thematically, Kirby draws strong line between Anti-Life (i.e. fascism) and the mutually assured destruction of nuclear holocaust. The Mini-marks are tiny (Darkseid constantly calls them “Pygmies”) but pack a world-destroying punch. Even “babies” could wreak havoc with the touch of a button. This technology renders mass mind control moot.  This was a terrific story right up to the ending. Kirby seems to have been setting up an ongoing series in which Izaya would lead Supertown on a quest for a new homeland, a la Moses and the Children of Israel. Or, if you prefer, Adama and the crew of the Battlestar Galactica. But the last page backpedals, quickly solving the problem with a paragraph of text that seems thrown together at the last minute. In his recent Mister Miracle series, Mitch Gerads drew Oberon to look like Kirby himself. But Kirby seems to be making Himon his “I-guy” in this story.   Kirby offers some really cool decorative borders and symmetrical panel layouts throughout.    Kirby also makes one more stab at a photo collage, and this time the results are pretty amazing.  Overall a terrific story, now that Kirby has shed all the extraneous Guardian/ Newsboys/ Jimmy/ Superman/ O’Ryan’s Gang/ Shilo material and focused on the core New Genesis/Apokolips conflict. I did miss Scott and Barda. Was this Kirby accepting Gerber’s story about Scott abandoning New Genesis? If not, Scott and Barda should have been right beside Izaya, if not accompanying Orion and/or Lightray to Apokolips.
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Post by profh0011 on Jul 14, 2019 21:56:56 GMT -5
Kirby did a really powerful commentary on the arms race. ONE single bomb completely destroyed New Genesis. And the people of Apokalips realized, they'd been building and stockpiling MILLONS of them.
Something I read years later... the planet Metron was towing behind him for Supertown to orbit around... was the SAME planet where The Forever People found themselves trapped at the end of their series.
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