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Post by Reptisaurus! on May 24, 2019 4:32:42 GMT -5
They used to! Back when Carl Barks and company were selling millions of copies an issue of Walt Disney's Comics and Stories, basically all American comics featured multiple stories, 90% of them starring multiple characters.
Serial anthologies remain incredibly popular in England and Japan. (I think the rest of Europe as well?)
But, in America, anthology comics have been less and less popular for the last 50 years. I can only think of a handful of mainstream-ish anthologies that were successful over the last 30. (Dark Horse Presents, Image's Flight, Marvel Comics Presents) and there was a decade or so there where single-creator anthologies dominated independent comics (Acme Novelty Library, Eightball, Hate, Yummy Fur, MeatCake, Dirty Plotte, Palookaville, etc. There were a lot.)
And Archie Digests still dominate the supermarket!
Still, the majority of American comics - both floppies and longer works - still feature one character, one creative team, one story.
I contend that the anthology is the most natural fit for serial comics.
The few anthology type comics that DO come out tend to be some of the highest quality comics around. (Fanta's Mome, DC's Solo, I'll advocate for Dark Horse Presents again)
Why is the US doing it wrong? Why does the direct market specifically seem to reject anthology books?
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on May 24, 2019 5:24:29 GMT -5
To vastly over-simplify the issue, it seems to me that anthologies sell on perceived value (look how many stories you get for the price of one!) whereas direct market books sell on hype (you'll never believe what happens to Batman this time around. Pre-order now!). We're in an age now where many folks won't even stick with a favorite character or series unless they know the creative team or have seen exciting solicitations about what's coming. So why offer all the content that goes into an anthology in such a market? It's a waste of quality content that could be sold more effectively if broken up.
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Post by Icctrombone on May 24, 2019 5:39:45 GMT -5
I think an anthology title might sell on the strength of the creators involved. Sort of like Epic Magazine did with the likes of Starlin, Corben etc.
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Post by tarkintino on May 24, 2019 6:06:18 GMT -5
They used to! Back when Carl Barks and company were selling millions of copies an issue of Walt Disney's Comics and Stories, basically all American comics featured multiple stories, 90% of them starring multiple characters. Possibly for the same reasons the anthology remains--by large part after the early 1960s--a dead sub-genre in TV production with very few exceptions: audiences cannot be "hooked" to return week after week (or in the case of comics, month after month) with no continuing, familiar characters and situations. Serialized stories make you a part---sort of a "companion" to the main character and his or her journey. That cannot happen in the anthology, which also runs the risk of losing readers when any random month is either bad, or is of no personal interest. Its far too easy to just pass up buying anthologies for those reasons, where on the opposite side of the storytelling tracks, readers can weather a bad creative team, or poor single issue of a continuing character, because the book--if generally good--sort of has a built-in guarantee to get back on track, and with audience investment to "continuing adventures of...". |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on May 24, 2019 8:25:46 GMT -5
I think an anthology title might sell on the strength of the creators involved. Sort of like Epic Magazine did with the likes of Starlin, Corben etc. True, but a company could sell more copies soliciting individual books on the name of a single creator associated with each. You can sell a Starlin book AND a Corben book, so why sell one book that offers both? Get those sales numbers up! |
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2019 8:34:40 GMT -5
(you'll never believe what happens to Batman this time around. Pre-order now!). We're in an age now where many folks won't even stick with a favorite character or series unless they know the creative team or have seen exciting solicitations about what's coming. So why offer all the content that goes into an anthology in such a market? Shax, what you've written here is very true and the creator of any Anthology Comics must learn the value of marketing ... without it you'll fail miserably. It's that's simple. Most Creators don't do the work and that's why they don't sell at all. Good Marketing creates sales pure and simple. Pre-Ordering is a MUST and that's a part of good marketing ...  |
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2019 8:52:54 GMT -5
I'll provide a British perspective based on 2000 AD.
I don't read 2000 AD regularly. I only am on board when the characters interest me. Judge Dredd will always interest me, but I don't feel like buying it if 7-8 weeks' worth of issues features strips that don't hook me. However, if the next few months had Dredd, Ace Trucking Co., Slaine and Rogue Trooper in the title, I'd buy it.
Same with a superhero title. Gambit does not interest me. An anthology title with 3 stories per issue, and has 1 Gambit story in each issue, would not be a sell for me.
We have a UK title here called Mighty World of Marvel, which reprints 3 US comics per issue. The editor of MWOM has talked about how an anthology title can be a tough sell. Right now, MWOM is reprinting Captain Marvel, Guardians of the Galaxy, and The Champions. For those who like those characters, that's great, but for those who may only be interested in one or two of those strips, it's probably not going to be a hook.
I think the points made about creators are spot-on. But I do think, especially with comics being fairly expensive, it'd be a lot to ask people to invest in an anthology title. It's a bit "leap of faith" at times.
And that is where I am with 2000 AD. If I know Dredd, Slaine, Rogue Trooper and others will be in it, I'll have it saved for 6 months. I just can't pay for a weekly comic where only one strip appeals to me.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on May 24, 2019 9:36:00 GMT -5
(you'll never believe what happens to Batman this time around. Pre-order now!). We're in an age now where many folks won't even stick with a favorite character or series unless they know the creative team or have seen exciting solicitations about what's coming. So why offer all the content that goes into an anthology in such a market? Shax, what you've written here is very true and the creator of any Anthology Comics must learn the value of marketing ... without it you'll fail miserably. It's that's simple. Most Creators don't do the work and that's why they don't sell at all. Good Marketing creates sales pure and simple. Pre-Ordering is a MUST and that's a part of good marketing ... I'm not sure I agree with all of this, but I do concur that solicitations and hype drive the American direct sales market. I'll add, however, that I find this tragic. I think there are far too many stories out there that: 1. try to be the BIGGEST thing ever instead of bothering with small stories, and 2. give very little thought to climax and resolution. It's all about the pitch, and rarely about actually telling a good story to completion And the Direct Market's emphases on solicits and pre-orders are to blame. There is no incentive to tell a good story anymore, and certainly not to tell a long stretch of good stories that show slow, organic growth and development over a long period time. It's the five issue, written-for-the-trade, who-we-killing-off-this-week approach. And it's why I don't read Big Two books anymore and likely never will again. |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on May 24, 2019 9:52:45 GMT -5
One thing to keep in mind is the state of writing and reading in general when anthologies ruled the comic book world. Through the end of the 40s the main competition for comics were The Pulps. While there were novel length pulps (Doc Savage, The Shadow) the vast majority were anthologies. The prestige writing venues were the slick periodicals; Colliers, Saturday Evening Post, etc. And the format was the short story. Yes there were novels. But hardcover novels were a prestige format and were largely the purview of libraries and the rich. Genre novels, to the extent they existed, were serialized in pulps. It wasn't until the advent of the paperback original in the very late 40s and into the 50s that the novel began to replace short fiction as the reading format of choice. And that growth continued until short fiction virtually disappeared by the late 80s and beyond except for a handful of specialized low-circulation magazines.
With the advent of the internet there is now a venue for short fiction again. Between web-zines, Kindle Singles, etc. there is an opportunity for short fiction to find an audience. And it's still been a struggle with some great e-zines still failing to find a viable financially sustaining audience (Thuglit). There's also been a small resurgence of anthology television with the growth of streaming services. "Black Mirror" on Netflix has been very well received. "Philip K. Dick's Electric Dreams" on Amazon. I'm sure there are more.
So really it seemed that the decline of anthology comics in the U.S. tracked the decline of short fiction in prose and the rise of the novel.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2019 10:01:35 GMT -5
Shax, what you've written here is very true and the creator of any Anthology Comics must learn the value of marketing ... without it you'll fail miserably. It's that's simple. Most Creators don't do the work and that's why they don't sell at all. Good Marketing creates sales pure and simple. Pre-Ordering is a MUST and that's a part of good marketing ... I'm not sure I agree with all of this, but I do concur that solicitations and hype drive the American direct sales market. I'll add, however, that I find this tragic. I think there are far too many stories out there that: 1. try to be the BIGGEST thing ever instead of bothering with small stories, and 2. give very little thought to climax and resolution. It's all about the pitch, and rarely about actually telling a good story to completion And the Direct Market's emphases on solicits and pre-orders are to blame. There is no incentive to tell a good story anymore, and certainly not to tell a long stretch of good stories that show slow, organic growth and development over a long period time. It's the five issue, written-for-the-trade, who-we-killing-off-this-week approach. And it's why I don't read Big Two books anymore and likely never will again. I have mixed feelings about this and what you've written is partly true and partly false. I need to sit back and rethink all this to give my points of both true and false. I understand your thoughts here and I just find some of this not to my understanding and that's make it very difficult to explain to you.
I have to ask you questions in order to understand your reasonings here. |
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on May 24, 2019 10:10:50 GMT -5
My two cents (my mind is richer than my wallet  ) I think it's because superhero comics from Marvel and DC have been selling a brand (legacy characters) for so long, that people have become more invested in the character than the story. Even successfully anthologies like Batman LOTDK or MCP by DC and Marvel still prominently featured one or more of their characters. New characters weren't being created to tell a story, except maybe some support characters just used in that particular story. Even DHC and DHP both prominently featured the characters that "sold" the book; Aliens and Predator. In fact only one DHC issue didn't feature a story with either of those franchises. And they are closer to anthology than LOTDK or MCP, in they presented new work and characters by up and coming artists. Don't let me be lying now, but didn't both Concrete and Grendel come out of DHP? If so, yeah, new characters can be created in anthologies and still find success. I think it's just the mentality of a demographic of people that read mostly superhero comics, that don't want to "waste" time reading about a character that they may never see or read again, because of long running legacy characters dominating superhero comics. It's like why movies are starting to get made with the intention of being a trilogy even. We the consumer that are buying these formats are why the publishers/movie makers keep doing it. |
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2019 10:15:18 GMT -5
One thing to keep in mind is the state of writing and reading in general when anthologies ruled the comic book world. Through the end of the 40s the main competition for comics were The Pulps. While there were novel length pulps (Doc Savage, The Shadow) the vast majority were anthologies. The prestige writing venues were the slick periodicals; Colliers, Saturday Evening Post, etc. And the format was the short story. Yes there were novels. But hardcover novels were a prestige format and were largely the purview of libraries and the rich. Genre novels, to the extent they existed, were serialized in pulps. It wasn't until the advent of the paperback original in the very late 40s and into the 50s that the novel began to replace short fiction as the reading format of choice. And that growth continued until short fiction virtually disappeared by the late 80s and beyond except for a handful of specialized low-circulation magazines. With the advent of the internet there is now a venue for short fiction again. Between web-zines, Kindle Singles, etc. there is an opportunity for short fiction to find an audience. And it's still been a struggle with some great e-zines still failing to find a viable financially sustaining audience (Thuglit). There's also been a small resurgence of anthology television with the growth of streaming services. "Black Mirror" on Netflix has been very well received. "Philip K. Dick's Electric Dreams" on Amazon. I'm sure there are more. So really it seemed that the decline of anthology comics in the U.S. tracked the decline of short fiction in prose and the rise of the novel. Even more so now, the goal is no longer the novel, but the series of novels for genre fiction. The trend, and it seems the audience preference, is for longer stories not shorter, more not less where the story itself is concerned. And another factor is that more and more the preferred method of consuming stories is the binge consumption-all at once over short period of time, not consuming episodes over time the way serialized anthologies would present it, so it needs to be bigger stories all at once, not smaller chunks over time to meet the audience demands. And the anthology is the antithesis of all the current rends where it comes to story consumption in both the mass market and the niche comic book market. -M |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on May 24, 2019 10:20:35 GMT -5
My two cents (my mind is richer than my wallet ) I think it's because superhero comics from Marvel and DC have been selling a brand (legacy characters) for so long, that people have become more invested in the character than the story. Even successfully anthologies like Batman LOTDK or MCP by DC and Marvel still prominently featured one or more of their characters. New characters weren't being created to tell a story, except maybe some support characters just used in that particular story. Even DHC and DHP both prominently featured the characters that "sold" the book; Aliens and Predator. In fact only one DHC issue didn't feature a story with either of those franchises. And they are closer to anthology than LOTDK or MCP, in they presented new work and characters by up and coming artists. Don't let me be lying now, but didn't both Concrete and Grendel come out of DHP? If so, yeah, new characters can be created in anthologies and still find success. I think it's just the mentality of a demographic of people that read mostly superhero comics, that don't want to "waste" time reading about a character that they may never see or read again, because of long running legacy characters dominating superhero comics. It's like why movies are starting to get made with the intention of being a trilogy even. We the consumer that are buying these formats are why the publishers/movie makers keep doing it. Even when legacy characters are featured in anthologies, I think the same reasoning can apply: readers don't want to "waste" time on stories that are unlikely to "matter" (because any significant event, even if it's bound to be retconned away eventually, is unlikely to occur in an anthology book). The most popular anthology magazines published in continental Europe (mags like Tintin, Spirou, À suivre) presented chapters of stories that would eventually be collected in hardbound books; to fans, these stories did matter because they were the "official" runs for all of their favourite characters. The mags also presented shorter stand-alone stories, but that was just icing on the cake. |
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2019 10:29:05 GMT -5
And the Direct Market's emphases on solicits and pre-orders are to blame. There is no incentive to tell a good story anymore, and certainly not to tell a long stretch of good stories that show slow, organic growth and development over a long period time. It's the five issue, written-for-the-trade, who-we-killing-off-this-week approach. And it's why I don't read Big Two books anymore and likely never will again. This. A thousand times over. (Free ride in my cab if you're ever near here!). In the late 80s, a UK reprint title reprinted 1981's "The Lazarus Affair", featuring Bats, Robin, Catwoman and King Faraday taking on Ra's al Ghul. It felt epic. It was epic. And yet the stories I read after, and that includes the US issues, had solid, standalone tales. Growth and development happened over a period of time. Five-issue (or six-issue) arcs should be akin to Christmas. They shouldn't be frequent. They should be the large sponge cake you indulge in occasionally. They shouldn't be a "regular meal". It was great back in the day when you got to occasionally enjoy a multi-part epic. But it was great to come back down to Earth and enjoy something else. So while "The Lazarus Affair" was an epic four-parter, with an apocalyptic tale, it was then good to come back down to Earth and simply enjoy seeing Batman take on the Mole in the Batcave! Shaxper is right. Spot on. And this ties into the anthology debate. Would people even be interested now? |
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on May 24, 2019 10:29:36 GMT -5
My two cents (my mind is richer than my wallet ) I think it's because superhero comics from Marvel and DC have been selling a brand (legacy characters) for so long, that people have become more invested in the character than the story. Even successfully anthologies like Batman LOTDK or MCP by DC and Marvel still prominently featured one or more of their characters. New characters weren't being created to tell a story, except maybe some support characters just used in that particular story. Even DHC and DHP both prominently featured the characters that "sold" the book; Aliens and Predator. In fact only one DHC issue didn't feature a story with either of those franchises. And they are closer to anthology than LOTDK or MCP, in they presented new work and characters by up and coming artists. Don't let me be lying now, but didn't both Concrete and Grendel come out of DHP? If so, yeah, new characters can be created in anthologies and still find success. I think it's just the mentality of a demographic of people that read mostly superhero comics, that don't want to "waste" time reading about a character that they may never see or read again, because of long running legacy characters dominating superhero comics. It's like why movies are starting to get made with the intention of being a trilogy even. We the consumer that are buying these formats are why the publishers/movie makers keep doing it. The most popular anthology magazines published in continental Europe (mags like Tintin, Spirou, À suivre) presented chapters of stories that would eventually be collected in hardbound books; to fans, these stories did matter because they were the "official" runs for all of their favourite characters. The mags also presented shorter stand-alone stories, but that was just icing on the cake. Very much agree with this. And that comes from, events. We went from actual meaningful events, COIE, to an event every month. One right after another. Where everything is tied together, and nothing really stands on it's own. So the story doesn't really matter. It's how it's told, as MRP just posted above. |
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