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Post by profh0011 on Jun 29, 2020 13:42:44 GMT -5
They had a "graphic novel" style comics-size TPB collecting the "Dark Phoenix Saga" some years back. It sat in a box for many years before I dug it out and re-read the story, decades after I had originally.
It was my reaction to re-readng it, so many years later, that really shocked me.
I thought both the writing and the art was terribly amateurish. And I couldn't believe how much I had enjoyed it the first time. I guess maybe it's an example of what you can "get used to".
I gave up on "X-MEN" a lot of years before most fans, from what I read, became to complain that the book had "gone to hell". It was J.R. Jr. that did it for me. I could put up with the nasty, viscious stories for the sake of Dave Cockrum art. I even got used to John Byrne art. And Paul Smith art had its own simple charm to it. But J.R. Jr....with Dan Green on inks... uh uh.
I'd rather re-read the stories Werner Roth drew.
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Post by rberman on Jun 29, 2020 14:22:23 GMT -5
They had a "graphic novel" style comics-size TPB collecting the " Dark Phoenix Saga" some years back. It sat in a box for many years before I dug it out and re-read the story, decades after I had originally. It was my reaction to re-readng it, so many years later, that really shocked me. I thought both the writing and the art was terribly amateurish. And I couldn't believe how much I had enjoyed it the first time. I guess maybe it's an example of what you can "get used to". I gave up on " X-MEN" a lot of years before most fans, from what I read, became to complain that the book had "gone to hell". It was J.R. Jr. that did it for me. I could put up with the nasty, viscious stories for the sake of Dave Cockrum art. I even got used to John Byrne art. And Paul Smith art had its own simple charm to it. But J.R. Jr....with Dan Green on inks... uh uh. I'd rather re-read the stories Werner Roth drew. I too bailed as the JRJr period progressed. As for the rest, all opinions are accepted, no matter how minority! I'm with the majority that thought that Claremont's combination of long-term planning and character development (with substantial input from Byrne) were setting a new professional standard that no one, including himself, matched later in the decade. |
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Post by rberman on Jul 2, 2020 11:23:07 GMT -5
I got the John Byrne X-Men Artist Edition from IDW, which reproduces over a hundred pages from Byrne/Austin X-Men. It illuminates some of the discussion earlier in this thread. For instance, I had mentioned that the mental fencing match between Cyclops and Mastermind seemed to be a late addition when issues 132-133 were split into 132-134. Supporting this idea, we see that the "Wolverine in the rafters" splash page was originally said to be in 132 but then was changed to 133.  Granted, that could just be an error at the time of writing "132" instead of "133." Note however that many of these pages are not drawn on Marvel's standard Bristol boards with preprinted lines for the title, issue, artist, etc. This speaks to an irregular production process, with different pages done in different circumstances on different paper. The same is true, but moreso, with the fencing scene, which again was done on nonstandard paper which has yellowed much more than most Marvel pages from this era. Byrne gives extensive marginal notations as to what this scene is about, indicating that he and Claremont have not already co-plotted it together as part of their overarching plan. It's a late, Byrnian addition to their original plan. The convenient lack of backgrounds in this mental duel speaks to the rush job. The other Colonial hallucinations had fully rendered backgrounds.  Another page in the Wolverine sequence above was renumbered from Three to Four. Again this could be just an error. If so, it's unusual among these art pages available for perusal.  #135 and #136 were also envisioned as one issue originally; the whole "Dark Phoenix goes into space and eats D'Bari" sequence was added to fill out #135 after the #136 material was removed. Here's the first page of the space sequence, which was again done later on nonstandard paper which has yellowed more than the official Marvel paper. Beast is arriving to help the X-Men; his Quinjet is almost struck by Dark Phoenix as she flies into space.  More in another post on information that can be gleaned from the original art. |
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Post by rberman on Jul 2, 2020 12:18:59 GMT -5
Now let's talk about colors. In a cover notation on #139, Byrne said that Angel would wear blue, like in Neil Adams' day.  The interior double splash repeats this instruction. Wolverine's new neutral colors are said to include a "dark yellow" helmet. I would have called it "tan" or "brown."   The cover also said that Kitty's X-tunic should be black and white.  The final art for cover and interiors had Angel in red and Kitty in the familiar yellow. So I guess Byrne lost those arguments.  Sometimes Byrne's use of mixed media proved detrimental to the long-term health of the art pages, which was obviously not a foremost concern at the time. One panel here must have used some sort of marker which has not survived the decades:   Byrne got quite elaborate with his rendering ideas on occasion, giving lengthy and specific instructions as to how Proteus' powers should be depicted for maximum psychedelic effect:  The final published work seems to contain another artist's more jagged approximation of Byrne's original idea, and I wouldn't call the effect especially ambitious.  There was some confusion about the floor on the following panel from #142 when the X-Men face Mystique's Brotherhood of Evil Mutants. It was supposed to be marble, and is noted as such in the blue pencil, which I assume is Byrne. I guess somebody miscolored it at first, since a second notation says more emphatically that the floor should be marble, not wood.  Byrne was quite clear that this Hellfire guard was biting his lip, and there are no lower teeth in the image:  But either the colorist or printer ignored this instruction.  Marvel colorist Steve Oliff often took commissions to hand-tint original art pages in the 80s. This splash page of Arcade may be his work. Looks great, really. Purist collectors frown on any alterations of the original art, even repairs. note that the top of the page claims that it's just "breakdowns," but then a comment at the bottom calls it "fully rendered."  |
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Post by rberman on Jul 2, 2020 12:43:35 GMT -5
Now let's talk about the words. We had discussed a few days ago how Claremont re-scripted the Shi'ar starship reveries in #137. The new script can be identified on the original art by its use of cheaper paper pasted over the original word ballooons. So the first part of Wolverine's monologue was unchanged; it's clear where the new part begins.  The same can be seen in other issues. #138 was originally scripted with Jean being regressed to mental childhood, and her parents take her home with them. The X-Men then stand sadly around remembering about their past adventures with her. The "remembering" part stayed the same, but now the context is Jean's funeral. So Scott's thoughts had to be altered to reflect the new plot that Jean had died.   The first panel here underwent a subsequent modification in white-out. I bet it originally said "What do you do when the women you love becomes a goddess?" Or something like that with stronger religious overtones that were dialed back to avoid offense. The wordier "supremely powerful?" required a lateral expansion of the word balloon, also with white-out. Other examples of white-out modification: I wonder what Beast originally called Wolverine here rather than the very weird "Shortcake." Probably some real term like "midget" that was deemed too derogatory to actual short people. Beast of all people should not be shaming people for their appearance anyway!  Speaking of shame, the famous Savage Land cover with Garokk burning Colossus at the stake featured an unfortunate 'coon' caricature in the UPC box. White people simply didn't think of this sort of thing as offensive at the time.  Storm evidently said something in a larger word balloon originally in this panel from #141. Art had to be re-added to cover the new, smaller word balloon which has been taped over the original script.  A similar two-part job involving both taping and white-out allowed one of comicdom's most famous last-minute edits to proceed in #137.  The original was reproduced for Phoenix: The Untold Story from stats. It's overly dark as a result of reproducing a copy.  |
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Post by rberman on Jul 2, 2020 12:59:45 GMT -5
Finally, a group that I'll call "excellent art detail." Like his hero Jack Kirby, John Byrne loves drawing machinery. He could have gotten away with a much less detaile rendering of Arcarde's pinball mechanism. Terry Austin to his credit inked the whole thing:  Unlike George Perez, Byrne specifically avoided using Kirby Krackle as a mass of black circles. Instead, he made his own variation, which involved rectangles and ellipses instead of circles. Just a little stylistic thing to make it his own. Look for it throughout his work.  Wonder what Byrne's pencils looked like under Austin's ink? This abandoned page from #138 tells us. So detailed and tight! Beautiful.  When Ororo goes back to back to her family's previous apartment and discovers it's become a flop house, one of the inhabitants is in the middle of shooting up heroin. I'm surprised this passed the Comics Code.  The grafitti on the wall of the flop house is loaded with names of Marvel staffers. Apart from that, the floor has the comics section of the New York Post as well as a Hulk comic book. In a few years, Byrne would leap at the opportunity to draw Hulk instead of Alpha Flight.  When Scott takes Colleen Wing on a date to the ice cream parlor called "Nostalgia," there's a humorous selection of magazines (Creepy, Fantastic, Starlog, Omni, GQ, and TV Guide) on the mag rack, and a bunch of Marvel comics on the spinner rack (including the Apocryphal "Marvel Hoo Ha"). But also Flash (a DC comic) and something called "Doomsday," which I have no idea about. These may be the work of the letterer, not the artist. "Wholesome junk" indeed!  Sunfire's home has a grandfather clock, used to tell us that the time is noon. Similarly a clock in the ice cream parlor put Scott's date at 5pm.  I hadn't previously noticed that Magneto's wheelchair is pretty beat up. Verite! When Vindicator first attempts to capture Wolverine, he is aided not by Canadian soldiers, but by the Canadian branch of SHIELD. Weird.  Not really an art detail: Why is Macchio's name handwritten on this?  |
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Post by chaykinstevens on Jul 2, 2020 15:55:42 GMT -5
When Scott takes Colleen Wing on a date to the ice cream parlor called "Nostalgia," there's a humorous selection of magazines (Creepy, Fantastic, Starlog, Omni, GQ, and TV Guide) on the mag rack, and a bunch of Marvel comics on the spinner rack (including the Apocryphal "Marvel Hoo Ha"). But also Flash (a DC comic) and something called "Doomsday," which I have no idea about. These may be the work of the letterer, not the artist. "Wholesome junk" indeed! Doomsday + 1 was a series Byrne drew for Charlton in 1975-6. |
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Post by chaykinstevens on Jul 4, 2020 11:19:55 GMT -5
When Scott takes Colleen Wing on a date to the ice cream parlor called "Nostalgia," there's a humorous selection of magazines (Creepy, Fantastic, Starlog, Omni, GQ, and TV Guide) on the mag rack, and a bunch of Marvel comics on the spinner rack (including the Apocryphal "Marvel Hoo Ha"). But also Flash (a DC comic) and something called "Doomsday," which I have no idea about. These may be the work of the letterer, not the artist. "Wholesome junk" indeed! Not really an art detail: Why is Macchio's name handwritten on this? Ralph Macchio wrote X-Men Adventures / Adventures of the X-Men between 1992 and 1997, including an adaptation of the X-Men cartoon's version of Days of Future Past. |
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Post by Chris on Jul 4, 2020 14:01:32 GMT -5
Sometimes Byrne's use of mixed media proved detrimental to the long-term health of the art pages, which was obviously not a foremost concern at the time. One panel here must have used some sort of marker which has not survived the decades: I don't think there WAS any original finished art, marker or otherwise, in that panel to survive. That appears to be what is called a "surprint," aka a color hold, and very likely was not inked on the original art page. As for how that works, let's go to DC Comics for this cover using a similar effect...  A reader wrote in asking about how it worked.  If you look closely at the X-Men page, you can see traces of the pencil art, which was erased so it wouldn't show up when the art was photographed. The colors were probably done on a separate sheet and laid over the original art when photographed. The very next image you posted adds support to this idea. Look again at this page... Byrne got quite elaborate with his rendering ideas on occasion, giving lengthy and specific instructions as to how Proteus' powers should be depicted for maximum psychedelic effect: The final published work seems to contain another artist's more jagged approximation of Byrne's original idea, and I wouldn't call the effect especially ambitious. Let's get a closer look at the notes.  Byrne states he created an effect on a vellum overlay, much like how a surprint is often made. So, basically the same thing going on here as well. He also mentions "zip," probably referring to Zip-A-Tone, which was sheets of transparent material with patterns pre-printed on them. Artists would cut out sections of the sheet and paste it onto the original art. The DC Comics Presents cover posted above may have used such a technique. Then again, it could be some other method. I'm guessing here, but I'm thinking someone just did a color fill inside the outline Byrne drew and photographed it as a simple color hold, and Byrne's Zip-A-Tone overlay never got used. We have a thread on this type of technique here. |
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Post by rberman on Jul 4, 2020 14:21:10 GMT -5
Sometimes Byrne's use of mixed media proved detrimental to the long-term health of the art pages, which was obviously not a foremost concern at the time. One panel here must have used some sort of marker which has not survived the decades: I don't think there WAS any original finished art, marker or otherwise, in that panel to survive. That appears to be what is called a "surprint," aka a color hold, and very likely was not inked on the original art page. A reader wrote in asking about how it worked. If you look closely at the X-Men page, you can see traces of the pencil art, which was erased so it wouldn't show up when the art was photographed. The colors were probably done on a separate sheet and laid over the original art when photographed.... Byrne states he created an effect on a vellum overlay, much like how a surprint is often made. So, basically the same thing going on here as well. He also mentions "zip," probably referring to Zip-A-Tone, which was sheets of transparent material with patterns pre-printed on them. Artists would cut out sections of the sheet and paste it onto the original art. The DC Comics Presents cover posted above may have used such a technique. Then again, it could be some other method. I'm guessing here, but I'm thinking someone just did a color fill inside the outline Byrne drew and photographed it as a simple color hold, and Byrne's Zip-A-Tone overlay never got used. We have a thread on this type of technique here. Thanks for the info! I was basing my comments on this other page I have, in which an inked image glued to the page (Dani's illusion of Selene) became a surprint in the final product.   But now that I think about it, I purchased this page from a dealer who is well known (as I later learned) for cutting out vellum overlays and attaching them directly to the original art in a way that does not reflect the original production process. So I bet even my New Mutants example was done in the way that you describe. For instance, this vellum overlay:  recently had the smoke cut off of it and applied directly to the cover art which originally looked like this:  to try to approximate the published composite image:  Most collectors consider this vandalism rather than preservation. |
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Post by profh0011 on Jul 5, 2020 16:58:53 GMT -5
I remember once playing around with "color holds", and doing it entirely in Photoshop. What I did was made a copy of the inks, then DELETE sections of BOTH the original and the copy, then completely changing the color of the overlay from black to whatever color I wanted to use.
I love how computers can allow you to do som much CLEANER and with more precision than the more traditional methods.
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Post by beccabear67 on Jul 5, 2020 23:51:27 GMT -5
The color overlay sheet to the Frank Miller cover to X-Men Annual #3 (1979) got separated or lost before printing so ended with a plain white background where a portal was drawn as open with figures rushing through.
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Post by beccabear67 on Jul 5, 2020 23:54:25 GMT -5
When Ororo goes back to back to her family's previous apartment and discovers it's become a flop house, one of the inhabitants is in the middle of shooting up heroin. I'm surprised this passed the Comics Code. The grafitti on the wall of the flop house is loaded with names of Marvel staffers. Apart from that, the floor has the comics section of the New York Post as well as a Hulk comic book. In a few years, Byrne would leap at the opportunity to draw Hulk instead of Alpha Flight. This was mostly Terry Austin's work, John Byrne did layouts only. |
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