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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2019 13:29:18 GMT -5
I've long been a fan of "cross-pollination" when it comes to villains fighting heroes who are not their regular adversaries. I like seeing the usual match-ups (such as Bats VS Joker and Spidey VS Green Goblin), but now and again it's so refreshing to see something new, e.g. Fantastic Four VS Dr. Octopus and Superman VS Joker.
My view on "cross-pollination" is that it should be used sparingly. It should be like Christmas. We don't want Christmas every day (despite what that pop song states!). If it's overdone, it becomes less special. It can be an event such as Acts of Vengeance or it can simply be a single issue, e.g. Superman Vol. 2 #9, where Byrne's Supes took on Joker.
So while I feel it should be done sparingly, it doesn't feel like it's used much nowadays. Sure, at times it is. We can all think of a modern example, but it doesn't seem to be a 'thing' now. And for me, there are characters who don't ever seem to be subjected to "cross-pollination", which I think is disappointing. Some match-ups seem to be loaded with flavour, e.g. Fantastic Four VS Juggernaut and Batman VS Ocean Master.
And now to the X-Men!
I like the X-Men, but over time I sure as hell would have liked to have seen them, very occasionally, step away from their regular adversaries/mutant-related stuff - and fight some foes they've never encountered.
One that I would walk barefoot across hot coals to see is the original X-Men VS Sinister Six. Professor X VS Dr. Octopus! Angel VS Vulture! Beast VS Kraven! Marvel Girl VS Mysterio! Iceman VS Sandman! Cyclops VS Electro! The thought of it excites me.
But there are so many others I wish I'd seen over times. They have engaged in "cross-pollination" (didn't they fight Mandarin once?). I just wish we could see so much more of it. Some of Spidey's foes could probably provide a challenge to them. Dr. Octopus is no pushover, with some planning and preparation time, could he provide at least a slight challenge to the X-Men? What about X-Men VS Abomination? Or X-Men VS Leader?
When it comes to "cross-pollination", I always try and envision interesting match-ups, clichéd though some are. A punch-up between Thing and Juggernaut would be fun. Silver Surfer VS Juggernaut could be fun, too. But it's not always about brawn. I enjoyed Superman taking on the Joker at times. How about Superman VS Riddler? It's a short fight once Supes catches up with Riddler, but the journey - Clark Kent having to put on his "detective head" and solve clues - could be fun even though the physical encounter would be the Man of Steel having Riddler in jail before Riddler has time to think.
I'd most like to see it with the X-Men, though.
Any thoughts? Don't feel we have to limit this discussion to X-Men. If you have any general thoughts on "cross-pollination", it'd be great to read them!
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Post by brutalis on Jun 12, 2019 13:43:35 GMT -5
I enjoyed some of Marvels' cross-pollination over the years.Rhino into a Hulk villain was great. Taking Kingpin over into DD's world worked wonders for the character. Thanos moving from Captain Mar-Vell to being against Warlock, Silver Surfer and the Avengers until he faces darn near every hero in the MU stands out as spectacularly brilliant. The Sphinx going from a Nova villain to New Warriors and FF villainy. It was interesting to see Magneto and how he acts/reacts when facing the Avengers or Defenders.
DC was always a bit more resistant for having much cross-pollination early on but over time they have had much more success allowing momentary match-ups. Luthor going full on villain up against the entire DCU has proven bankable. Many of the Batman, Flash and Superman villains are just as interesting and fun when they go head to head against a different hero. I really do want to see how Bat's would do up against the likes of Grodd, or how the Bat Family would handle the Flash Rogues Gallery and the same for Flash up against the Bat villains. Riddler and Joker going brains to speed with Flash can be delightful and deliriously insane.
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Post by Duragizer on Jun 12, 2019 13:43:38 GMT -5
I usually like cross-pollination, but where the X-Men are concerned, I wish they were on their own Earth and had less interaction with the non-mutant Marvel characters.
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Post by badwolf on Jun 12, 2019 14:04:37 GMT -5
I really liked both the Superman/Joker and the Mr. Fantastic/Doctor Octopus issues.
I guess the X-Men/Doctor Doom story would count. They did fight the Mandarin in Acts of Vengeance, but I'm a bit fuzzy on it as that was around when I dropped the book.
Have the FF ever fought the U-Foes? They were part of AoV but they went up against the West Coast Avengers.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2019 14:08:15 GMT -5
I don't recall the FF ever fighting the U-Foes.
I do try and find out at times by using Google images. I'll Google, say, "Fantastic Four" and "Juggernaut". Google images can be hit and miss, but they tend to find something if two guys have fought!
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 12, 2019 14:39:43 GMT -5
Riddler was used quite well, in an issue of The Question, though he was further devalued by the end. That was Denny O'Neil, though, who was no fan of the character.
A lot of that sort of thing happened in team-up titles and the team books. The Injustice Gang and the Secret Society of Super-Villains were where you could see villains run up against other heroes, though, more often than not, they faced off with their own arch-enemy. Team-Up titles were a little more often the place for a better mix, with things like Spidey teaming with Havok and facing off against the Living Pharaoh/Monolith, whose power level was tied to Havok's. Spidey, Black Widow, Shang Chi and Nick Fury fought Viper, Silver Samurai and Boomerang, in a mystery where Black Widow has lost her memory, Viper is mind controlling a section of SHIELD and Boomerang is a hired goon. The Project Pegasus storyline, in Marvel two-in-One, has Thing and his buddies facing a mixture of deathlok, Klaw, Solarr, Nuklo, and Thundra and the Grapplers (heavily swiped from the Female Furies), before meeting up with the Nth Man, with the whole thing manipulated by the Roxxon Corp.
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Post by badwolf on Jun 12, 2019 15:29:52 GMT -5
Yeah, the team-up books usually (or at least often) had the guest-star's arch-enemy.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2019 5:20:40 GMT -5
That's probably why I enjoyed the team-up books so much. I picked up a The Brave and The Bold comic at a con a while back, featuring Batman and Lois Lane against Metallo. Fun concept!
Also, and this is probably another topic, some of us follow characters as well as creators. I like The Leader. Trust me, if I see him advertised for an appearance soon, I'm buying it even if it's a title I don't follow or care for. For instance, I never really "got" Gambit. He's never appealed to me, but if the Leader or Abomination or Mandarin showed up in a Gambit comic, I'd purchase it.
I follow creators, but I follow characters, too. And I believe that a person can follow supervillains. It's self-evident that we follow superheroes such as Superman and Batman, but it may not be as self-evident that we follow supervillains. I do. Many do. It's one reason why I wish Marvel would release something akin to the old "Essential" volumes, but focusing on a supervillain's chronology. I like Scorpion. Just one example. Give me a volume that presents his chronological appearances - and I'm buying it!
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Post by brutalis on Jun 13, 2019 7:49:47 GMT -5
That's probably why I enjoyed the team-up books so much. I picked up a The Brave and The Bold comic at a con a while back, featuring Batman and Lois Lane against Metallo. Fun concept! Also, and this is probably another topic, some of us follow characters as well as creators. I like The Leader. Trust me, if I see him advertised for an appearance soon, I'm buying it even if it's a title I don't follow or care for. For instance, I never really "got" Gambit. He's never appealed to me, but if the Leader or Abomination or Mandarin showed up in a Gambit comic, I'd purchase it. I follow creators, but I follow characters, too. And I believe that a person can follow supervillains. It's self-evident that we follow superheroes such as Superman and Batman, but it may not be as self-evident that we follow supervillains. I do. Many do. It's one reason why I wish Marvel would release something akin to the old "Essential" volumes, but focusing on a supervillain's chronology. I like Scorpion. Just one example. Give me a volume that presents his chronological appearances - and I'm buying it! Marvel may be picking up on this idea of supervillian collections. There is a Galactus book TPB from last year and a new Hardback coming for November. Also a Man-Wolf book in October starting with all of his appearances in Spider-Man on through to his God-Wolf stuff.There is a M.O.D.O.K. book this December (on pre-order on Amazon) starting with his earliest appearances. Perhaps if these catch on and sell well enough that trend might continue. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2019 8:24:37 GMT -5
Well, if you'd like to buy all of those for my birthday, we can bump the sales up. Thanks!
I know some of it is indulgent. I want a Scorpion book. Does the world? I don't know.
But back when the "Essential" volumes were out, I was craving some devoted to supervillains. It's my life's work to read every Galactus appearance.
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Crimebuster
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Post by Crimebuster on Jun 13, 2019 9:18:09 GMT -5
The Avengers fought Dr. Doom several times, with.. mixed results. The first time, in Avengers #25, is hilariously terrible other than the cover. But there were some good stories along the way as well - in Avengers #154-155 and SVTU #9, SVTU #14, and the Emperor Doom graphic novel.
They also faced off against some X-Men villains for a little bit between #102-111, facing the Sentinels, Magneto, and Magneto's dumb band of weird mutant acolytes. The results were so-so at best.
Molecule Man crossed over for a great story in Avengers #215-216.
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Post by rberman on Jun 13, 2019 9:41:17 GMT -5
The most interesting conflicts arise organically among people who spend time with each other anyway. Dark Phoenix is the go-to example for X-Men, or the debates about accepting former villains like Rogue and Magneto into the fold. This is what I liked about Grant Morrison's "Riot at Xavier's" story and Joss Whedon's "Torn" story as well.   |
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Post by badwolf on Jun 13, 2019 10:49:15 GMT -5
I follow creators, but I follow characters, too. And I believe that a person can follow supervillains. It's self-evident that we follow superheroes such as Superman and Batman, but it may not be as self-evident that we follow supervillains. I do. Many do. It's one reason why I wish Marvel would release something akin to the old "Essential" volumes, but focusing on a supervillain's chronology. I like Scorpion. Just one example. Give me a volume that presents his chronological appearances - and I'm buying it! Certainly! I've bought issues of series I wasn't normally collecting because Scarecrow or Poison Ivy appeared. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2019 10:55:00 GMT -5
Such volumes could have hidden gems in them. It wasn't until a few years ago that I learnt Scorpion had faced Captain America (I love the back issue bins at comic cons). Or that he faced Alpha Flight.
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Post by mikelmidnight on Jun 13, 2019 11:42:16 GMT -5
I usually like cross-pollination, but where the X-Men are concerned, I wish they were on their own Earth and had less interaction with the non-mutant Marvel characters.
I agree in general, but never understood why Claremont or any other writer never grabbed Solarr as a member of the Brotherhood. Of course, he's dead now, but I thought he was a neglected member of the mutant community.
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