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Post by Reptisaurus! on Jun 16, 2019 14:53:16 GMT -5
In the Golden Age The Angel. The Angel was closer to a Saint clone, with a costume (at least, in his early stories). Gustavson and the writer(s) used a lot of elements from the Charteris series, including his calling card. Here, you have a matter of approach. DC was more of a writer-driven company, which meant more intricate plots, while Marvel, all the way back to Timely, was more about the visuals. DC editors loved their mysteries and used writers who could deliver them. Timely Golden Age reflected more of wilder pulps and Marvel was more the sci-fi adventure, soap opera, and basic crime structure. Mystery plots varied from writer to writer. Moench was one of the better ones, for that kind of thing. Iron Man used mystery structure to a certain extent; but, more in problem solving how to beat some tech foe. Moon Knight used it a bit; but, evolved into more psychological stuff. Master of Kung Fu used it more, in some stories, mixing it with the spy stuff (which espionage and detective stories have a lot in common). Still, this feels like the closest option of those listed. I dunno anything about the Saint (interesting!) but the Angel's Not-Very-Secret identity was a private eye, if I'm remembering right. And his stories followed the basic tropes of detective fiction more than superheroes.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2019 15:36:25 GMT -5
Moon Knight, Black Panther, and Nick Fury would be my top three choices. That's a good answer (all answers have been good), but I wonder, Fury's profession is a spy; Bruce Wayne is a detective, albeit a semi-sanctioned one. Is there overlap between intelligence work and detective work? Or not? Not claiming to know the answer, just throwing it out there. Would, for instance, a CIA agent easily transition to being, say, a NYPD detective? Would a NYPD detective easily transition to being a CIA agent?The part in bold ... would be answered in a day or two ... I need time to think things over.
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Post by Cei-U! on Jun 16, 2019 17:31:49 GMT -5
The Angel was closer to a Saint clone, with a costume (at least, in his early stories). Gustavson and the writer(s) used a lot of elements from the Charteris series, including his calling card. Here, you have a matter of approach. DC was more of a writer-driven company, which meant more intricate plots, while Marvel, all the way back to Timely, was more about the visuals. DC editors loved their mysteries and used writers who could deliver them. Timely Golden Age reflected more of wilder pulps and Marvel was more the sci-fi adventure, soap opera, and basic crime structure. Mystery plots varied from writer to writer. Moench was one of the better ones, for that kind of thing. Iron Man used mystery structure to a certain extent; but, more in problem solving how to beat some tech foe. Moon Knight used it a bit; but, evolved into more psychological stuff. Master of Kung Fu used it more, in some stories, mixing it with the spy stuff (which espionage and detective stories have a lot in common). Still, this feels like the closest option of those listed. I dunno anything about the Saint (interesting!) but the Angel's Not-Very-Secret identity was a private eye, if I'm remembering right. And his stories followed the basic tropes of detective fiction more than superheroes. Only for the first eight episodes or so, and then Gustavson began pitting Angel against monsters, ghosts, costumed criminals, and weirdos like the Armless Tiger Man. This remains the status quo in the series even after Gustavson moves on until late in 1944, when he became once again an ordinary crimefighting mystery man. So he comes close to the Batman mold, but lacks the latter's trauma-based motivation and his polymath erudition.
Cei-U! I summon the angelic also-ran!
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Post by foxley on Jun 16, 2019 17:37:29 GMT -5
Nighthawk was intended to be a Batman clone (millionaire alter-ego, gadgets, animal themed costume), but I don't recall him ever doing much detective work.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 16, 2019 18:53:17 GMT -5
The Angel was closer to a Saint clone, with a costume (at least, in his early stories). Gustavson and the writer(s) used a lot of elements from the Charteris series, including his calling card. Here, you have a matter of approach. DC was more of a writer-driven company, which meant more intricate plots, while Marvel, all the way back to Timely, was more about the visuals. DC editors loved their mysteries and used writers who could deliver them. Timely Golden Age reflected more of wilder pulps and Marvel was more the sci-fi adventure, soap opera, and basic crime structure. Mystery plots varied from writer to writer. Moench was one of the better ones, for that kind of thing. Iron Man used mystery structure to a certain extent; but, more in problem solving how to beat some tech foe. Moon Knight used it a bit; but, evolved into more psychological stuff. Master of Kung Fu used it more, in some stories, mixing it with the spy stuff (which espionage and detective stories have a lot in common). Still, this feels like the closest option of those listed. I dunno anything about the Saint (interesting!) but the Angel's Not-Very-Secret identity was a private eye, if I'm remembering right. And his stories followed the basic tropes of detective fiction more than superheroes. The Saint was a twist on the detective genre, with a criminal as the hero. It wasn't a new idea, as that is pretty much the template of the Arsene Lupin stories. The Saint usually ends up helping people in need, even though he earns his living as a master thief. He would leave his calling card, which was a stick figure, with a halo. If memory serves, I read a description of the earliest Angel stories and he had a similar calling card. It sounded like Gustavson was drawing from the Saint stories, when he started out, then it turned into more of a mystery man strip; though, I don't think i have ever run across a complete story. Heck, aside from Rick Jones pulling people from his brain, I think the Marvels Project was the first time I saw the original being used in a story. Most of what I knew was from the World Encyclopedia of Comics, 1st edition, which was the first place I ever saw a reference to the character. The Saint connection is also noted at Don Markstein's Toonopedia.The Twelve had a couple of characters who were in the detective moold, though i'm not really up on how many stories there were of any of the individual characters. They were a bit more obscure than some of Timely's other 2nd and 3rd stringers, like Black Marvel or Citizen V. Timely seemed to have a shorter lifespan for many of their back-up strips, compared to other companies. In the JMS series, Phantom Reporter is a detective, though how much of that is JMS' take, i don't know.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 16, 2019 18:54:20 GMT -5
Nighthawk was intended to be a Batman clone (millionaire alter-ego, gadgets, animal themed costume), but I don't recall him ever doing much detective work. Well, he tended to be treated as a bit of a buffoon, as were most of the Squadron Sinister/Supreme (that reminds me, I need to get back to my review thread....)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2019 19:42:42 GMT -5
Forget Nick Fury, @taxidriver1980 ... The Marvel best equivalent to Batman is Night Thrasher His parents died, has great skills in the world of martial arts unknown to man and quite Japanese style ... Expert in Computer Skills, and unreal tactician that took on the Punisher and the likes and survive the beatings. Resourceful, intelligent, and host of other abilities that has not been revealed.
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Post by MDG on Jun 17, 2019 9:23:20 GMT -5
Forget Nick Fury, @taxidriver1980 ... The Marvel best equivalent to Batman is Night Thrasher One big difference between Night Thrasher and Batman is that nobody's ever heard of him.
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Post by Prince Hal on Jun 17, 2019 9:24:37 GMT -5
Forget Nick Fury, @taxidriver1980 ... The Marvel best equivalent to Batman is Night Thrasher One big difference between Night Thrasher and Batman is that nobody's ever heard of him. Sounds like he has Restless Leg Syndrome.
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Post by Randle-El on Jun 17, 2019 10:33:47 GMT -5
Powers aside, Daredevil is one I'm glad to see mentioned. Daredevil is a good choice; more than his powers, early DD stories had him using his civilian intellect, which is Batman's hallmark as a true detective, as opposed to Tony Stark, who almost exclusively relies on tech for everything. Daredevil has always been the obvious choice to me as Marvel's Batman equivalent. Besides the character similarities, there's the Frank Miller connection. When Miller went over to DC to do Year One and DKR, I always felt he was using pages from the same playbook he used to reinvent Daredevil. As far as the detective angle, I always thought that Daredevil's powers were the perfect set-up for hunting down clues, and his work as an attorney invites a certain amount of investigation. Mix in a little Miller-style noir and you've got the elements for a great detective story.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2019 11:05:31 GMT -5
Forget Nick Fury, @taxidriver1980 ... The Marvel best equivalent to Batman is Night Thrasher One big difference between Night Thrasher and Batman is that nobody's ever heard of him. He came out in Marvel Comics in the 90's and was a fan favorite in the LCS that I was going at the time and had 2 books in his credit during that time period and was a member of the New Warriors as well. I remember him because my best friend ran a Comic Book store and I had a chance to read Night Thrasher and his first appearance in Thor #411 that came out in December 1989 and he is created by Tom DeFalco (Writer) and Ron Frenz (Artist) and he had clubs similar to Daredevil and a has some kind of armor that ... "Night Thrasher wore a special suit of light articulated combat armor composed of Kevlar/borosilicate fiber in a ceramic matrix and 8 mm and 16 mm thick layers of micro-mail titanium nitride. He designed the battle-suit to survive physical combat with Silhouette's brother Midnight's Fire. The costume cannot be penetrated by conventional bullets or knives and is fireproof. The suit includes a wafer-thin L.E.D. casing that allows the suit to camouflage itself within its surroundings. The helmet contained integral goggles with infrared sighting, telescopic lenses, magnetic resonance scanning, and a camera attachment. It also includes a breathing apparatus, voice scrambler, two-way radio communications device, parabolic sound enhancer, and a cybernetic link to armor systems."The part in italic is found in Wikipedia and according to my knowledge of this character it is very accurate indeed.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2019 14:35:20 GMT -5
Fascinating responses as ever, people! If anyone can think of a Batman "equivalent" in a non-Marvel title (e.g. Image or Dark Horse), that'd also be great.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Jun 17, 2019 15:09:50 GMT -5
Forget Nick Fury, @taxidriver1980 ... The Marvel best equivalent to Batman is Night Thrasher One big difference between Night Thrasher and Batman is that nobody's ever heard of him. Oh. He's like an old, white Night Thrasher who dresses in a doofy Bat costume.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Jun 17, 2019 15:42:34 GMT -5
One big difference between Night Thrasher and Batman is that nobody's ever heard of him. ...it's the perfect cover!
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Post by String on Jun 17, 2019 18:05:31 GMT -5
Daredevil is a good choice; more than his powers, early DD stories had him using his civilian intellect, which is Batman's hallmark as a true detective, as opposed to Tony Stark, who almost exclusively relies on tech for everything. Daredevil has always been the obvious choice to me as Marvel's Batman equivalent. Besides the character similarities, there's the Frank Miller connection. When Miller went over to DC to do Year One and DKR, I always felt he was using pages from the same playbook he used to reinvent Daredevil. As far as the detective angle, I always thought that Daredevil's powers were the perfect set-up for hunting down clues, and his work as an attorney invites a certain amount of investigation. Mix in a little Miller-style noir and you've got the elements for a great detective story. If you're considering superheroes, this would be my answer as well. If you're considering actual detectives, my favorite Marvel detective would be Dakota North. A former fashion model who ended up running a troubleshooting agency, she had her own short-lived series back in the 80s. It only lasted 5 issues and was apparently considered a knock on Ms Tree by Collins and Beatty. She appeared sporadically over the years since but her most recent lengthy appearance was being hired as the in-house investigator for Murdock & Nelson's law firm during Ed Brubaker and Micheal Lark's run on Daredevil. Under Brubaker's guidance, gone were the fancy dressings of a fashion model playing spy to be replaced by a competent seasoned professional:
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