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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2019 15:25:03 GMT -5
And yet, more trades are sold to libraries collectively than to comic shops in the direct market collectively for most of the last 10 years or so. Sure it varies form region to region, but overall sale of trades to libraries in the US is greater than overall sales of trades to comic shops in the US. And more of those trades to libraries will reach end readers than those sold to comic shops which may languish on shelves unpurchased by end customers. -M Do people buy trades from comic book shops? And I say that in all seriousness because I haven't had access to a comic book shop in close to twenty years. But the few times I've been in the shops in Boise when I'd go to visit someone I see a ton of trades hanging out with MSRP prices on them. I also haven't paid full retail for a book in over twenty years so I guess I'm wondering if people really do that. Some do. Brian Hibbs main shop in SF is based on trade sales not individual issues. I get a standard discount at my lcs because I am a pull customer, and sometimes that discount is better than Amazon's on certain publishers, so I get those trades at the lcs. But it is important to remember in the direct market, the customer is the retailer, that is who Diamond is selling to, not the patrons of the shop, just as libraries are the customers. What happens after those sales in immaterial to Diamond (and to publishers, but they at least should care because future customers have to be reached as well). -M
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 27, 2019 15:50:34 GMT -5
And yet, more trades are sold to libraries collectively than to comic shops in the direct market collectively for most of the last 10 years or so. Sure it varies form region to region, but overall sale of trades to libraries in the US is greater than overall sales of trades to comic shops in the US. And more of those trades to libraries will reach end readers than those sold to comic shops which may languish on shelves unpurchased by end customers. -M Do people buy trades from comic book shops? And I say that in all seriousness because I haven't had access to a comic book shop in close to twenty years. But the few times I've been in the shops in Boise when I'd go to visit someone I see a ton of trades hanging out with MSRP prices on them. I also haven't paid full retail for a book in over twenty years so I guess I'm wondering if people really do that. I don't have numbers; but, from my experience, we sold more copies at B&N than the shops in our area, and carried more of them. That probably varies quite a bit by region. A lot of sales are online, for the best prices. I always bought mine at B&N, since my employee discount beat my LCS subscriber discount and the online sale prices (apart from remaindered copies) It was pretty rare that Amazon was better than my employee discount (which I still get, thanks to putting in 20 years at B&N), though, I rarely buy comic trades, anymore. We also had co-op advertised sales of things, where we carried more discounted copies, with publishers underwriting the costs. Not sure what comic retailer costs are, from Diamond; but, book retailer cost was usually about 30-50% of the cover price (50% was standard for the big houses, tighter margins on small press and specialized texts, like medical books). Amazon gets some pretty sweet deals, thanks to strongarm tactics, as well as the industry standards.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 27, 2019 15:55:42 GMT -5
One thing to keep in mind about libraries is that they are also, often, buying directly from the publisher or a distributor, at discounted rates, not available to the general public. So, sales to them don't bring as much potential profit as sales to general customers. Therefore, they are pretty much a separate market (and also have some special formats, like "turtlebacks", which are trade paperbacks that are rebound in hardcover, with the softcover laminated to the exterior. Usually not offered for books with in print hardcover editions, and only by some publishers. I used to have one for the Steranko non-SHIELD Marvel trade, with his X-Men and Cap stories).
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Post by mrbrklyn on Jun 30, 2019 3:34:29 GMT -5
Graphic novels/trade collections are one of the most circulated items in our local library system. I'd say roughly 50% of the current Marvel and DC trade releases (i.e. new material and new collections of classic material) gets bought in and put out by our local system, divided over the 5 different branches that comprise our county's library system, with 3 having heavier collections than the other two. More in demand series have multiple copies bought in, one for each branch that might circulate it. Most are filed in the young adult section. Other publishers are less represented, but Walking Dead, Saga and a few other Image titles are well represented, the Avatar stuff from Dark Horse (and the Star Wars stuff when DH had the license), Lumberjanes from BOOM! the Disney collections from Fantagraphics, a decent selection of titles from First Second, the Raina Telgmeier stuff, etc. are all seen on the shelves. Some stuff is not filed in the young adult section, some in the 741 section of the Dewey system (comics strip & art classification) others by topic. Things like Maus go in the section of WWII Holocaust history for example. Our system also offers the Hoopla service, where pretty much every DC, most Marvel, and many other publishers trades are available digitally for free to read, and some publishers offer single issues digitally free to read as well. If you have a library card with out local library system, you can access the Hoopla service. You get 10 borrows per month of the service (any combination of trades or single issues, but also a ton of movies, tv episodes, e-books, audio books and what have you, bit limited to 10 total borrows each month). According to DC's presentation at the American Library Association a year or so back, libraries in the US represent the largest (not retail reseller or distributor of books) purchaser of graphic novels/trade collections in the United States. Which is why lines like DC's Ink and Zoom were debuted at the ALA conference and are geared towards young readers which make up the largest percentage of library patrons in the US. In many parts of the US, libraries are the ONLY place where readers can encounter comics in any form in the wild. There are no comic shops or other brick and mortar retail options that carry comics or trades in those areas. So yes, libraries can do something for the comic industry, and already are doing a lot for the industry, at least in the US. And it's not only public libraries. Here in town the library at Wittenberg University has a huge selection of scholarship on comics and collections of comic material in their library. A former professor there (Matthew Smith) did internships of students at SDCC and published a book about it, and taught several courses on comics there, so the library bought in a lot of material. He moved on to another university (I believe Radcliffe but I am not sure) and I am not sure if the courses continued after his departure, but the books are still in the library and available to the students and the community-those will local public library cards can get a guest borrower card at the university and borrow a limited number of items that are not on hold for particular classes). So university libraries can and in some cases do things for the comic industry. I can't speak to libraries outside the U.S., but within the U.S. graphic novels and trade collections is one of the fastest growing areas of libraries, and generally are one of the most circulated classifications of items in systems that do carry a good assortment of them. -M Interesting. This is both good and bad. the good part is obvious, that in theory it gives kids access to comics that otherwise they wouldn't have. This is especially gratifying to read as we have so many latch key children who flood libraries without adults supervision. If these kids can find solace and learn about literature through library, situmlate their creative juices, and just stay out of trouble reading comics at libraries that is great. It is sad, however, for the entire industry. Publishers that depend on libraries for first editions and printings of books and other publications have limited public market penetration. That seems to be where comics are now relagated to. I'm not sure it is a business model that can be sustained for comics, or that it is healthy for the medium. Comics are best when they are cheap, broadly available, and part and parcel of daily living.
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Post by mrbrklyn on Jun 30, 2019 3:39:33 GMT -5
If I am an urban planner, I would make publically supported books, newspapers, art, and magazine spaces available for reading and buying for a market. It would be more than a library. I believe that these works are no longer supportable on the market, but essential for an educated and enabled population and that government should try to provide such a free market.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2019 5:53:29 GMT -5
Comics are best when they are cheap, broadly available, and part and parcel of daily living. Comics haven't been that in over 20 years (closer to 25+). They (periodical comics) are currently (and have been for some time) a niche product sold only in niche destination shops that cater to people who are already interested customers and not in places where they can be discovered by new customers who don't yet know they might be interested. And the shops they are sold in use a market model which works against new customers discovering or buying them because print runs are based on preorders by the existing customer base done months in advance. So in effect they are expensive (niche products always cost more than similar products in the mass market), available only in select outlets that do not exist in large swaths of the country, and an exception not the norm, even to people who are fans of the characters and stories usually associated with them, and have been for more than a generation. -M
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Post by mrbrklyn on Jun 30, 2019 6:09:13 GMT -5
Comics are best when they are cheap, broadly available, and part and parcel of daily living. Comics haven't been that in over 20 years (closer to 25+). They (periodical comics) are currently (and have been for some time) a niche product sold only in niche destination shops that cater to people who are already interested customers and not in places where they can be discovered by new customers who don't yet know they might be interested. And the shops they are sold in use a market model which works against new customers discovering or buying them because print runs are based on preorders by the existing customer base done months in advance. So in effect they are expensive (niche products always cost more than similar products in the mass market), available only in select outlets that do not exist in large swaths of the country, and an exception not the norm, even to people who are fans of the characters and stories usually associated with them, and have been for more than a generation. -M Right but comics are best when they are cheap, broadly available, and part and parcel of daily living.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2019 6:15:59 GMT -5
Comics haven't been that in over 20 years (closer to 25+). They (periodical comics) are currently (and have been for some time) a niche product sold only in niche destination shops that cater to people who are already interested customers and not in places where they can be discovered by new customers who don't yet know they might be interested. And the shops they are sold in use a market model which works against new customers discovering or buying them because print runs are based on preorders by the existing customer base done months in advance. So in effect they are expensive (niche products always cost more than similar products in the mass market), available only in select outlets that do not exist in large swaths of the country, and an exception not the norm, even to people who are fans of the characters and stories usually associated with them, and have been for more than a generation. -M Right but comics are best when they are cheap, broadly available, and part and parcel of daily living. And if they are ever going to achieve that again, they need to leave the periodical format and the comic shop direct market model behind. -M
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Post by mrbrklyn on Jun 30, 2019 7:18:00 GMT -5
Right but comics are best when they are cheap, broadly available, and part and parcel of daily living. And if they are ever going to achieve that again, they need to leave the periodical format and the comic shop direct market model behind. -M
It takes a very optimistic view of the digital world to believe that can survive without the periodical format. That can never happen either. Comics are best when they are cheap periodicals that are broadly available, and part and parcel of daily living.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jun 30, 2019 7:51:17 GMT -5
And if they are ever going to achieve that again, they need to leave the periodical format and the comic shop direct market model behind. -M
It takes a very optimistic view of the digital world to believe that can survive without the periodical format. That can never happen either. Comics are best when they are cheap periodicals that are broadly available, and part and parcel of daily living.
New readers aren't coming to periodicals though, so why continue on with a format that is just leading to ever diminishing returns?
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jun 30, 2019 10:47:24 GMT -5
And if they are ever going to achieve that again, they need to leave the periodical format and the comic shop direct market model behind. -M
It takes a very optimistic view of the digital world to believe that can survive without the periodical format. That can never happen either. Comics are best when they are cheap periodicals that are broadly available, and part and parcel of daily living.
Repeating the same thing three times isn’t going to make a spinner rack stuffed with 25 cent comics suddenly appear in every 7-11. Bloody Mary. Bloody Mary. Bloody Mary. Nope. No spooky monster either.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2019 16:06:28 GMT -5
And if they are ever going to achieve that again, they need to leave the periodical format and the comic shop direct market model behind. -M It takes a very optimistic view of the digital world to believe that can survive without the periodical format. That can never happen either. Comics are best when they are cheap periodicals that are broadly available, and part and parcel of daily living.
I am not talking digital. I am talking book format, usually OGNs, you know the one that is seeing massive growth in the book trade selling to mass market customers. It's just not stuff featuring capes and tights or was sold first as periodicals and collected into books. It's stuff today's younger readers actually want to read about and enjoy. Comics in book form sold to young readers is one of the fasting growing sectors of the book trade, it's just not DC and Marvel doing the publishing/selling. That's where the future of comics lies. Brian Hibbs did his 2018 Bookscan sales analysis for comic material recently and I posted about it in a thread somewhere hereabouts, and it has all the nitty gritty details of what comics in book form that are relatively cheap accessible and broadly available are part and parcel of the daily living of kids. And it's not periodicals. Periodicals are a dinosaur product format of the early-mid 20th century that have zero interest to 21st century consumers. It is time to give up that ghost and retire the format with laser discs, Betamax and 8 tracks. -M
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Post by mrbrklyn on Jul 1, 2019 1:07:56 GMT -5
It takes a very optimistic view of the digital world to believe that can survive without the periodical format. That can never happen either. Comics are best when they are cheap periodicals that are broadly available, and part and parcel of daily living.
I am not talking digital. I am talking book format, usually OGNs, you know the one that is seeing massive growth in the book trade selling to mass market customers. -M I understand what your saying but there is no profit in that model. Books are a dieing business. And there is no profit in the digital model either. So if there is no profit in the periodical model as well, then it might well be best for DC and Marvel to close shop... but they won't. And the reason why they won't is because the collateral profits are too great to pass up. So there best solution is to break from Diamond and make inexpensive periodical materials broadly available as a lost leader, if necessary, so that they remain part and parcel of daily living. Otherwise they are really out of business.
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Post by mrbrklyn on Jul 1, 2019 1:08:43 GMT -5
It takes a very optimistic view of the digital world to believe that can survive without the periodical format. That can never happen either. Comics are best when they are cheap periodicals that are broadly available, and part and parcel of daily living.
New readers aren't coming to periodicals though, so why continue on with a format that is just leading to ever diminishing returns?
They will when they stop making comics a premium specialty item.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2019 2:14:35 GMT -5
I am not talking digital. I am talking book format, usually OGNs, you know the one that is seeing massive growth in the book trade selling to mass market customers. -M I understand what your saying but there is no profit in that model. Books are a dieing business. And there is no profit in the digital model either. So if there is no profit in the periodical model as well, then it might well be best for DC and Marvel to close shop... but they won't. And the reason why they won't is because the collateral profits are too great to pass up. So there best solution is to break from Diamond and make inexpensive periodical materials broadly available as a lost leader, if necessary, so that they remain part and parcel of daily living. Otherwise they are really out of business. Who's going to carry them. Comics lost the newsstands because vendors didn't want to carry them because they were too cheap and the margins too slim to make them viable any longer. They didn't pay for the space they took up. Many vendors received deliveries, left them bundled up and just claimed the return credit for them and never put them out for sale. Loss leaders are fine, but it has to be something people already want to get them in the door and buying the other things that are profitable, and comics never achieved that when periodicals were ubiquitous in the marketplace. Periodicals are no longer ubiquitous. If the comic industry keeps trying to recapture a past that no longer exists, they will disappear, they need to look to the future and what is working now, and not what used to work in decades past that no longer works because circumstances changed. Nobody wants to carry periodicals, and those that are still in print have economy of scale working against them and are expensive products. And you need to check your facts, books in print have experienced a boom in growth the past 5 years or so after shrinking for several years. They are not what they used to be, but they are currently a growth market, and original comic content in book form is one of the fastest growing segments of that boom market. Comics formats have always grown and changed with the times, that is until a generation of fans glommed on to the belief that a snapshot of what comics were when they got into them should be taken and that is the only thing comics ever could or should be. That generation is simply put, wrong and mostly delusional about that. Comics is not a format, not a genre, it is a method of storytelling using panels and pages to tell stories. The trick is to find a format and publishing strategy for those types of stories that appeals to the current market. Periodicals do not appeal to the current market, and as long as you try to hang on to the dinosaur format and refuse to let comics evolve into formats that do work in current times to current potential customers, you are limiting the potential of the storytelling medium to reach an audience and generate revenue. Small print runs make per unit costs higher, so comics will never be cheap as a periodical. Going to a non-returnable format means lots of unsold copies that create losses for publishers and kill what little margins you have, so if you are making less, and charging less, you have to reduce costs which means paying people less to create them, which sends what creative talent you have to other mediums, page rates are already low and haven't grown with cost of living increases over the last decade. Gas costs aren't going to go down. Tariffs for printing in China (since most print houses in the US don't want to print comics and their tiny print runs or charge prices that would cause comics to double their current cover price just to maintain the same margins) aren't going to let you reduce the prices you charge. Paper costs aren't going to go down. Production costs aren't going to go down. If you lower salaries in a competitive employment market, you lose potential employees, so you can't lower salaries, and what other products are you going to sell because someone is buying comics that they wouldn't buy already if they weren't buying comics exist to make them an effective loss leader? It's not the 1960s, 1970s or 1980s any longer. Many economic factors now didn't exist then, and you cannot ignore those current factors when making decisions about how to format and price your product. We all want cheap readily available comics like we had when we were kids. But it's not the same marketplace any more and there is no place for that kind of product in the current marketplace. So the challenge is to find new formats that do work that can make comics accessible and affordable to potential customers. It's not the direct market, and it's not periodicals. What it will be is yet to be determined; we are in a transition time, right now and there is a lot of uncertainty as to how it will all shake out. Some of the current publishing houses may not survive the transition, and Marvel and DC are not necessarily immune to that either. Things are in flux. Some tech and formats for delivering content are obsolete before they find their audience in the marketplace, making digital a dodgy format in a lot of ways. Books in print (not periodicals) are doing well currently, especially with young readers, so there is something there, but we may not have even seen or have an inkling what the next standard format for comics stories that defines the industry for a generation will be yet. The one thing I know for certain though, is that it won't be print periodicals. If I had to hazard a guess what the comic field will look like ten years from now, my guess would be that of those currently existing publishing houses that survive most will have made a decision to be one thing or the other-i.e. either content creators or publishers but not both. Image Comics is a publisher, not a content creator. They publish books by people who create and own the content. In that they operate more like one of the Big 7 book publishers than they do a comic publishers. My guess is that Marvel and DC will evolve into content creators and leave publishing behind(much like what Disney/Marvel is doing currently with IDW and the Disney comics, all ages Star Wars comics and all ages Marvel books). They will still create the stories, but work with publishing houses who will put the books out. I also expect that the compensation model for creators will evolve with those changes and page rates will be a thing of the past and publishing houses will offer advances/royalties deals like traditional book publishers do, and like what the big book publishers who have graphic novel division do. These things will facilitate the move away from periodical formats to other formats and allow both the content creators and the publishers to better monetize their efforts. It's already working well for publishers like Scholastic, FirstSecond, etc. and has been the model in European comics for things like new Asterix books for some time now. Comics aren't dying, they are evolving, and there are always growing pains ans extinctions involved in that process. Those that don't evolve die, those that cannot adapt to the changing marketplace become dinosaurs. Everyone loves dinosaurs, but they are extinct for a reason. -M
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