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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2020 13:48:20 GMT -5
Survivor Series 1995 aired 25 years ago today: Bret Hart won his third WWF Championship after defeating Diesel in a No DQ match. Fans were astonished when Diesel powerbombed Hart through a table. How times change, eh? Broken tables became routine years later. There was a Wildcard match where heroes and villains were on the same team. Shawn Michaels, Ahmed Johnson, British Bulldog and Sycho Sid took on Yokozuna, Owen Hart, the WWF Intercontinental Champion Razor Ramon and Dean Douglas. Other memorable bouts included an all-women elimination match, and the Undertaker leading Savio Vega, Fatu and Henry Godwinn against King Mabel, Jerry Lawler, Isaac Yankem and Hunter Hearst Helmsley.
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Post by codystarbuck on Nov 20, 2020 23:24:49 GMT -5
Survivor Series 1995 aired 25 years ago today: Bret Hart won his third WWF Championship after defeating Diesel in a No DQ match. Fans were astonished when Diesel powerbombed Hart through a table. How times change, eh? Broken tables became routine years later. There was a Wildcard match where heroes and villains were on the same team. Shawn Michaels, Ahmed Johnson, British Bulldog and Sycho Sid took on Yokozuna, Owen Hart, the WWF Intercontinental Champion Razor Ramon and Dean Douglas. Other memorable bouts included an all-women elimination match, and the Undertaker leading Savio Vega, Fatu and Henry Godwinn against King Mabel, Jerry Lawler, Isaac Yankem and Hunter Hearst Helmsley. I remember watching footage of Randy Savage pile driving Ricky Morton into a ringside table, at the Mid-South Colosseum, back in 1984 (before Randy & Lanny went to the WWF and before the RnR went to Crockett). This wasn't a particle board table, like you saw in the 90s; this thing was solid wood, from back in the 60s. It looked like he killed him, thanks to Morton's selling.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2020 6:18:35 GMT -5
Wow, haven’t seen that footage, but have read about the feud.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2020 9:06:28 GMT -5
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Post by codystarbuck on Nov 21, 2020 10:13:09 GMT -5
Wow, haven’t seen that footage, but have read about the feud. I misremembered, slightly...the table does break and it's not as heavy as I thought. I think I mixed the table with the one next to it, which had thicker legs. Comes at the tail end of the match; but, great match all around. Angelo Poffo is ringside, with the sons.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2020 12:08:06 GMT -5
Love it.
Tomorrow, if people wish to, we’ll be commemorating the 30th anniversary of SURVIVOR SERIES 1990 (the first WWF videotape I was given, circa early ‘91). And it’ll be the 30th anniversary of The Undertaker, too!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2020 6:55:37 GMT -5
Today marks 30 years since SURVIVOR SERIES ‘90 aired on PPV: This was the first WWF PPV I owned, my mum bought it for me in early 1991. I have many fond memories of it. It was also the only SS event that had an “Ultimate Survival” match at the end, where survivors of the earlier matches teamed up to decide who the true survivors were. At this event, Hulk Hogan, Ultimate Warrior and Tito Santana took on Ted DiBiase, Rick Martel, Warlord and Power & Glory (Martel abandoned his teammates, by the way). Solid match, but I was disappointed that Warrior and Warlord never got to hook up. The Hulkamaniacs vs. The Natural Disasters pretty much ended the Hogan/Earthquake feud. They did have matches after this (I believe they had a stretcher match in early 1991) - and they clashed at the 1991 ROYAL RUMBLE - but I thought this survival match, which ended with Hogan pinning the Barbarian, drew a line under that feud. The Warriors vs. The Perfect Team was an interesting one. I thought Perfect and Demolition were strange bedfellows, but there was a lot of intensity in the match. Sgt Slaughter leading foreign heels against Nikolai Volkoff’s team was an intriguing match. I was rooting for Tito Santana at the end, it seemed impossible to believe he’d survive Slaughter’s assault. The Vipers VS The Visionaries was a good one. Surely, Jake Roberts, Superfly and The Rockers can beat anyone? But, no, the Visionaries (Martel, Warlord and Power & Glory) survived. I think they were the first team at that point to survive a match with all members intact. And, of course, the debut of The Undertaker. I saw photos that showed Bad News Brown on the team of Ted DiBiase and Rhythm & Blues. Brown had abandoned his teammates in 1988 and 1989, so I suspect they’d have done that yet again. History was made that night as the Undertaker joined DiBiase’s team against Dusty Rhodes, Koko B. Ware and the Hart Foundation. What a career the Undertaker has had, reinventing himself since 1990, taking on all kinds of foes, being part of many memorable angles. Happy anniversary, Undertaker!
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Post by codystarbuck on Nov 23, 2020 1:49:49 GMT -5
Oh, God, the horror at the idea of Warrior and the Warlord in a one-on-one match.........
Only thing worst would have been a promo contest between the two!
Perfect and Demolition did have a connection...Curt Hennig and Barry Darsow (Smash) went to the same high school, in Robbinsdale, Minnesota ( suburb of Minneapolis). Other alumni include Nikita Koloff, Rick Rude, Battle Kat (Dean Peters), Tom Zenk, and Nord the Barbarian (aka The Bezerker). Previous alumni included Verne Gagne, son Greg and Gene Okerlund.
Personally, I liked the Survivor Series better when it was done earlier, by Crockett, as the War Games. Amazing how Vince always got credit for ideas stolen from other promotions. The War Games were a more serious undertaking, without the silly names and random pairings. It was usually two groups of guys deep in feuds...meaning, mostly the 4 Horsemen against Dusty , the Road Warriors, and whoever was on Dusty's side, as a babyface (Magnum TA, Sting, Luger, Barry Windham, etc). Dusty didn't originate it either, as there were double-elimination battle royals, Texas Tornado matches (all members of tag-teams in the ring at the same time), etc... Vince just gave it slicker presentation. Still, if you were younger, I can see the appeal of the WWF version.
I didn't watch the PPV; but, recall the tv debut of Undertaker, who I immediately recognized as Mean mark Callous, from the Skyscrapers, in WCW. In the old days, you could switch promotions and gimmicks without many knowing who you were, except those who followed the wrestling magazines. When you had two national promotions, with cable and syndicated tv and PPV, you often wonder what the point was for repackaging (other than trademarked stuff). I thought it was the stupidest thing in the world; but, Mark Calloway made it work, which just goes to show how talented and dedicated he was. When Paul Bearer debuted, I spotted him as the former Percy Pringle; but, again, he made it work, no matter how silly the WWF booking was. Shame of it was he was a damn good manager, as Percy Pringle, and didn't need the gimmick. Who knew he was an actual licensed mortician when they proposed the gimmick to him? Vince didn't even know. They had come up with the idea and had been in contact with William Moody separately, because of his Percy Pringle work. It was only in a face to face meeting that Vince found out he had been a mortician and started laughing, as they presented the Paul Bearer idea to Moody. The rest is history.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2020 6:25:44 GMT -5
A question was asked in a wrestling magazine (INSIDE THE ROPES) about whether Hogan vs. Austin or Austin vs. Goldberg was the most marketable dream match up back in the day. The writer stated that Hogan vs Austin was.
I agree.
Firstly, and a LOT would have had to have been different, if the match had happened between 1994 and 2003, I think it’d have been great. Of course, we’re in fantasy world booking now. Hogan would not have wrestled, let alone lost, to Austin had they clashed in 1994. Hogan didn’t want to put anyone over in WCW early on, that was obvious. So it’s academic to even think of a world where Hogan would have had competitive matches with Austin in 1994/95. Had it happened, though, I am sure between Hogan’s charisma/showmanship and Austin’s talents/charisma, it’d have been special.
Had Hogan left WCW in, say, 1998, I am sure McMahon would have handed over a WWF contract within the hour - and I am sure they’d have booked Hogan vs. Austin. Who’d have won? Would they have had 1 win apiece? Would there have been a rubber match? Not sure. Smarter people than me can answer that. But I don’t doubt it would have had box office appeal. And with one last shot of Hulkamania (I think the nostalgia peaked in 2002/2003), I am sure Hogan vs Austin at a WRESTLEMANIA card would have worked.
Austin vs Goldberg is the dream match some discuss, but what compelling reason would there have been for it to take place had it been possible to book? At least a Hogan/Austin match would have had that “battle of the generations” appeal, the most popular WWF superstar of the 80s taking on the 90s/early 00s guy that helped the WWF reach stratospheric levels. “Generational battles” have a lot of appeal, whether it’s Rock vs Hogan or, if it had been possible, Bret Hart vs. Kurt Angle. But while Austin began his career long before Goldberg did, their rise to the main event occurred at roughly the same time. I also wonder if a match between them would have been like mixing oil and water.
In a nutshell, I just can’t imagine, if the contracts/booking had been possible, a legitimate reason for Goldberg vs. Austin to have been a dream match.
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Post by codystarbuck on Nov 23, 2020 22:37:01 GMT -5
1994, Austin isn't quite there yet, to be a main event guy. He's getting there; but his promos aren't that special, yet. There was a big jump from his earlier WCW work, as Stunning Steve Austin to his end time, after he is paired up with Brian Pillman, as the Hollywood Blondes. Pillman was already there, as a ring performer; but, his personality hadn't really shown through. Austin was getting there in-ring; but, his personality was pretty much generic heel. Jeanie, aka Lady Blossom and then Paul E Dangerously (Heyman) added a lot to Austin, with Heyman handling the promo side that helped push him higher. With the Blondes, he and Pillman were thrown together because no one had a better idea and the two guys took it and ran with it. They became a legitimate team and there promos started showing a confidence and their personalities really started to come out. Within a couple of months, they were the most entertaining thing on WCW tv. You talk Hogan, in 1995, after he spends time with Heyman, in ECW, and he is ready for the main event, both in-ring and promo. A lot of Stone Cold was worked out, there.
Hogan, in 1995, should be elevating people, because his best days are behind him, especially since he is so lazy in the ring. Hogan spent too many years having other guys working around him, either beating on him until he does the Superman comeback, or selling for his ridiculous moves and posing for the crowd. If you want to talk 1983 Hogan, from New Japan, with 1995 Austin, then you could have one hell of an exciting match. Still, in 1995, Hogan should be putting Austin over, as it's time to anoint the next generation.
1996/97 Austin, pre-neck injury is going to be the worker in the match; but, 1996 Hogan is still mobile enough that, if motivated, could have a good match. Again, he should be elevating Austin, as there is nowhere to go with Hogan. If you do the match as a brawl, Hogan can be a bit competitive, though he was never convincing as a brawler. His punches never looked very strong and the rest of his stuff wasn't very snug. Austin worked snug, so he was more convincing, as a brawler.
If you want to talk Austin and Goldberg, it needs to be after he has beaten Hogan for the title, before they killed him by letting Nash, of all improbabilities beat him (even with a gimmick finish, like they used). Goldberg needs to be the unstoppable monster and Austin needs to work it like with Bret, at Wrestlemania 13, where he won't submit. Austin is the babyface and battles back against Goldberg. Goldberg hits the jackhammer; but Austin is close enough to the ropes to grab them and survive the pin. Goldberg can't believe it and doesn't press his advantage soon enough and Austin catches him with something sneaky, knocking him off his game. Austin works harder and harder taking the fight to Goldberg and using more mat wrestling to press his advantage. Goldberg is too busy looking for submission or impact that he doesn't know how to counter and Austin befuddles him with a mixture of wrestling technique and brawling, until he has Goldberg worn down and catches him in a few near falls, catches him with something like a brainbuster and then a stunner, for the win.
Austin, as a main eventer, is going to get more out of a Goldberg match, if Goldberg hasn't been devalued, like he was, by the time he came to the WWF. Austin vs Hogan is symbolic, at best. Either way, Austin is the one who has to carry the match. Hogan's age and attitude means Austin has to do the flashy stuff and Goldberg's lack of experience and limited training and inability to improvise in a match means Austin has to call the match, even if Goldberg is the heel.
I'd be more intrigued by a match between Undertaker, in his prime and Goldberg, while there was fire in him, as that would have been something. Goldberg had the size and intensity to play off Undertaker and look like a threat, while Undertaker is versatile enough and a great enough worker to move around Goldberg's limitations. Plus, seeing him doing the Spoiler moves (walking the ropes, while the opponent is in an arm wringer and attacks off the ropes) on Goldberg would look spectacular. Also, if Goldberg got sloppy, Undertaker could just beat the s@#$ out of him!
My 80s dream match was a motivated Hogan (ala his New Japan stint) and Flair, as that would be an epic battle. With that one, you could trade wins and still keep both strong. I always had a fantasy scenario of a world title unification, with Flair facing and beating Martel, then facing and beating Hogan, then dropping the title to someone like Barry Windham.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2020 6:46:47 GMT -5
Thanks for the insight. Whenever I discuss dream matches, it’s always from the perspective of the best eras for both men. I mean, Bret Hart vs. Kurt Angle circa 1999 would have been special, I feel.
Hogan stated that he wanted to wrestle Austin in 2005 (on the RAW HOMECOMING episode). In 2005, that would have been a bad match. Both were past their prime, both had had injuries, etc. I don’t think nostalgia, which can often hide the poor elements of a match, would have saved such a bout in 2005. Both would have had limited mobility, so unless it’d have been a 10-minute match, with mainly punches and kicks, I don’t think it’d have worked. It’s why I don’t think Undertaker vs. Sting, if it had happened about 3-4 years ago, would have worked, either.
I think 1996-98 would have been the perfect time period for those two to get it on.
Anyway, two thoughts about something else.
The aforementioned INSIDE THE ROPES magazine mentioned Steve “Dr Death” Williams (a reader had asked if Williams could have made it big in the WWF). The writer who replied stated the view that Williams had neither the verbal dexterity nor the persona to flourish in the character-driven WWF environment. Now, I’d like to see more of Williams’ work outside the United States. I did enjoy his time in WCW. But maybe that editor is right. And that’s no bad thing. Not everyone can flourish in a character-driven environment.
Secondly, I dug out a 1993 issue of WRESTLING RULEBREAKER (from the publishers of PWI). There’s an in-depth profile on Harley Race. This is one thing that was written:
This was a late 1993 issue. Has anyone surpassed Race’s record?
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Post by codystarbuck on Nov 24, 2020 12:17:19 GMT -5
Thanks for the insight. Whenever I discuss dream matches, it’s always from the perspective of the best eras for both men. I mean, Bret Hart vs. Kurt Angle circa 1999 would have been special, I feel. Hogan stated that he wanted to wrestle Austin in 2005 (on the RAW HOMECOMING episode). In 2005, that would have been a bad match. Both were past their prime, both had had injuries, etc. I don’t think nostalgia, which can often hide the poor elements of a match, would have saved such a bout in 2005. Both would have had limited mobility, so unless it’d have been a 10-minute match, with mainly punches and kicks, I don’t think it’d have worked. It’s why I don’t think Undertaker vs. Sting, if it had happened about 3-4 years ago, would have worked, either. I think 1996-98 would have been the perfect time period for those two to get it on. Anyway, two thoughts about something else. The aforementioned INSIDE THE ROPES magazine mentioned Steve “Dr Death” Williams (a reader had asked if Williams could have made it big in the WWF). The writer who replied stated the view that Williams had neither the verbal dexterity nor the persona to flourish in the character-driven WWF environment. Now, I’d like to see more of Williams’ work outside the United States. I did enjoy his time in WCW. But maybe that editor is right. And that’s no bad thing. Not everyone can flourish in a character-driven environment. Secondly, I dug out a 1993 issue of WRESTLING RULEBREAKER (from the publishers of PWI). There’s an in-depth profile on Harley Race. This is one thing that was written: This was a late 1993 issue. Has anyone surpassed Race’s record? Well, Lawler held the Southern title more times than everyone combined, plus the AWA title and tag-titles, plus the Southern tag titles multiple times...yadda, yadda, yadda.... I'm not as impressed by number of title wins, as that means you also lost it a lot. Length of time as champion is more impressive, on paper, as it means you are dominant. Harley was a great champion; but, in the former case, he was a partner in Kansas City and was a favorite of Muchnick, in St Louis, which is why he got the Missouri title so much. He was one of the few to regularly work the area. The NWA wins are impressive, though one is the quick switch in New Zealand, that wasn't recognized, at the time, because it wasn't sanctioned by the NWA board. It was only counted after the internet was a thing. Problem is, Harley was often the guy they put the title on when the current champion grew tired of touring with it. He was given the win over Dory Funk, because Funk maneuvered himself out of losing it to Jack Brisco; so, Harley dropped it to Brisco two months later. He gets it again, when Terry Funk is tired. Now, that is his most dominant period, as he, more or less, holds it from 1977-1981, with a few weeks without the title, in between. He has quick title switches with Dusty Rhodes, Giant Baba and Tommy Rich, during that period, but they only hold the title for a few days, each. The Baba wins were a favor, from Harley, without Board approval; but, because of Baba's standing, they recognized them in the States. That is really the period where Harley is a champion of substance. After that, he is the tough legend that people like Race and Flair respect and fear. The statement that he held more titles than anyone in wrestling doesn't hold up to much scrutiny, as Verne Gagne had 9 or 11 AWA wins, depending on if you count the Omaha version of the title, plus AWA tag wins, plus the original Chicago US championship. Now, if you are including all of Harley's championships, not just the NWA and Missouri belts, there are a lot of territorial wins. At the same time, if number of title wins are important, then Lawler held the Southern title, alone, 58 times, the tag titles 10 times, AWA World and tag titles once, the WCCW title, the unified title 28 times (after it became the USWA main title), the CWA title, the International title 3 times, etc, etc. PWI was in the business of selling magazines; so, they're articles always need to be taken with a grain of salt. They were very favorable to promoters who gave them access and gave coverage of their wrestlers, accordingly. After access under Vince Sr, Jr shut them out, during the expansion, to sell his own magazine. They pretty much treated the WWF as a red-headed stepchild, until it was too embarrassing not to recognize that they were the top promotion. Now, as to Dr Death.....he was best in territories where his work spoke for him, like Mid-South/UWF and Japan. In Mid-South/UWF, he was a hometown hero, from the Univ of Oklahoma, and Watts hyped him on commentary all through the program. He always mentioned his collegiate background, pushed him as a wrestling and wrecking machine and always kept him dominant. Japan treated him the same, because they respected real athletes and he could work their style. When he was outside that, he floundered. He was not good on the mic, he was not especially charismatic outside the ring, and he wasn't the guy who stirred the mix. He was the guy who beat the crap out of you and was used in programs with people who were more over and were further over after. About 10 years earlier, he would have been a bigger star.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2020 13:24:25 GMT -5
Thanks for all that.
I did try to take things with a grain of salt, ESPECIALLY the WWF-sanctioned publications. I remember reading about how Andre the Giant was undefeated prior to WRESTLEMANIA III - and how he’d never been bodyslammed. Yet when I got into US wrestling (late 80s), I’d already seen photos of him being bodyslammed - and years later I read about the losses he had endured. Still, I get that WM III had to be promoted a certain way, and I guess you couldn’t have hyped it with “Andre the Giant...pinned and bodyslammed on many occasions, but he’s still a near-unstoppable monster as he prepares to battle Hulk Hogan!”
The only real Steve Williams matches I have seen have been those in WCW, including the time he and Terry Gordy battled the Steiner Brothers at BEACH BLAST 1992. What happened to that feud? It seemed to fizzle out, I am not sure they had any televised matches after that.
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Post by codystarbuck on Nov 24, 2020 22:42:04 GMT -5
Thanks for all that. I did try to take things with a grain of salt, ESPECIALLY the WWF-sanctioned publications. I remember reading about how Andre the Giant was undefeated prior to WRESTLEMANIA III - and how he’d never been bodyslammed. Yet when I got into US wrestling (late 80s), I’d already seen photos of him being bodyslammed - and years later I read about the losses he had endured. Still, I get that WM III had to be promoted a certain way, and I guess you couldn’t have hyped it with “Andre the Giant...pinned and bodyslammed on many occasions, but he’s still a near-unstoppable monster as he prepares to battle Hulk Hogan!” The only real Steve Williams matches I have seen have been those in WCW, including the time he and Terry Gordy battled the Steiner Brothers at BEACH BLAST 1992. What happened to that feud? It seemed to fizzle out, I am not sure they had any televised matches after that. I don't remember specifics; but, Watts was running WCW, in 1992 and pushed both guys. They were brought in for the NWA World Tag-Team Tournament and were the eventual winners. The tournament and the return of the NWA titles started under Kip Frey, who ran things after Jim Herd resigned; but only for a short time. He was a Turner Broadcasting guy and was just running things until they found a permanent boss. That ended up being Watts. Watts came under fire after Mark Madden showed Hank Aaron, the baseball player and member of the Turner board, an interview where Watts had said some racially charged things (kayfabe). Watts resigned before it came to a head and Ole Anderson took over. I believe Williams basically wasn't overly happy with the travel in the US and the pay, which was low, for the time, as Watts was running things on a tight purse. A lot of guys left WCW in that period. Gordy never stuck around very long, as he was always treated well in Japan and made big money and the travel was less of a hassle (buses, hotels covered by the promotion, etc). Williams left in late 1992, as did the Steiners, who went to the WWF and stuck around for a little over a year, before going back to WCW. Ole didn't last too long as the guy running WCW and Eric Bischoff was put in charge, in 1994. Also a factor in things was that WCW had a working relationship with New Japan Pro Wrestling; but, Gordy & Williams worked for All Japan, under baba and were very loyal to baba (as were most who worked in AJPW). They refused to work matches with the Steiners in New Japan, which put them at odds with WCW. Gordy also suffered an overdose, on a plane, in 1993 and was never the same after, as it nearly killed him. Gordy suffered brain damage from the coma he was in and had trouble working a match, after. He was never trusted for a run for the Triple Crown, again, by Baba, nor in any major program, in the US. He ended up working for WAR and the IWA in Japan, doing garbage matches and Mick Foley (in his first book) talks about working a match with him in Japan that was pretty sad. He always like Gordy's work (he was one of the best, ever, and started as a teenager); but Gordy told him he would have to call the match as Gordy was incapable of doing so.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2020 6:30:26 GMT -5
WRESTLETALK MAGAZINE reported on a promotion called GCW (Game Changer Wrestling), based in New Jersey. Apparently, they have an invisible man who wrestles on their cards! This I have to see. There was also mention made of their Blood Sport events whose matches take place in a ring devoid of ropes. This I will also have to see.
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