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Post by codystarbuck on May 20, 2022 12:06:17 GMT -5
WAY back when they did the brand split, I thought they should treat each show like its own territory... RAW, Smackdown and now NXT could all have their own belts, and a 'World' (or 'Universal' if you must) that 'Toured' the shows above them. Makes so much sense they never did it. Not sure they'd need 3 belts each for the women or the tag titles, but they could decide that. Allegedly, that was the original plan, with the brand split; two separate groups, but one world champion. Didn't take long for them to alter that. As for Universal titles, well, the World Wrestling Council started that. They had their own WWC champion (also called the WWC World Champion, if they thought the NWA wouldn't hear) and booked a champion vs champion match, with Flair and Carlos Colon, to determine the Universal champion, which, of course, Colon won (since he was co-promoter). Then, it became the top title for the WWC. If you want a title-happy promotion, Puerto Rico was it. You had the Universal title (or the WWC World title, before), the WWC tag-team titles, the North American title, the North American tag titles, the Caribbean title, the WWC tv title, the Puerto Rican Title and the WWC Womens title (when Wendy Richter was married to Hugo Savinovich). I'd have to run down timelines; but, I don't think they all existed at the same time; but, most of them did, for periods of time. That's a lot of belts for a promotion that ran Puerto Rico and a few other islands. Crockett got title heavy, with the World title, world tag titles, US title, US tag titles, World TV title, Mid-Atlantic title, National title, National tag titles, Florida title, Central States title, World 6-Man tag titles. They created the Western States heritage title to be defended in both UWF and the main program. Granted, some of that was because they bought out territories (Florida, Central States and UWF) and then they slowly phased them out. They kept the Mid-Atlantic title for the first couple of years, after taking over the WCW tv show; but, phased it out after. The Junior/Light Heavyweight title came and went, depending on who was available, and they started merging titles. They dropped the National tag titles once they brought in the US tag titles, from Florida. They dropped the Florida title not too long after having Rick Steiner turn babyface. Central States was mainly used for Kansas City, until Bob Geigal bought it back. The US and National titles were united. The UWF title was jobbed to the NWA title and then retired and same for the UWF tv title. They didn't even bother with the tag titles,, as I recall. Memphis was another, though some of that was carrying on Nick Gulas' titles, after he went out of business. At one time, you had the CWA World title, the AWA Southern title (which had been the Southern Jr Hwt title, for many years, going back to the 60s, if not the 50s), the CWA World Tag titles, the AWA Southern Tag titles, The International title, the Mid-American title and I think there were International tag title, as well. The CWA World title was created to give Lawler a belt, since the NWA wasn't going to make him even a short-term champion, nor was Verne, at that stage. Verne reconsidered, when he got desperate, as Memphis was doing better than he was (mainly because Jarrett and Lawler were cheap). After a while, they started merging titles, with their newer CWA (Championship Wrestling Alliance, instead of Continental Wrestling Association) heavyweight and tag team titles, before rebranding as the USWA and adding another wrinkle with Lawler's Undisputed World title. I kind of preferred the old territorial structure, under the NWA. You had the World title, run by the NWA Board, and the Junior Heavyweight title, run by the Oklahoma territory, but used throughout the NWA. Everything else was the local promotion's titles. usually, you had the top title and maybe a secondary and a tag title. That was about it, unless your territory was doing enough business that you were running more than one crew. You had several World Tag-Team titles, including the Carolinas, Detroit, and San Francisco. You had a few US titles, like the Carolinas, Detroit and San Francisco. The "original" US title was created in Chicago, for Verne Gagne, since the NWA wasn't willing to vote him in as champion. He was the top star for Fred Kohler and a major tv attraction; so they created that belt and he toured with it. I always thought you should have a world singles and tag title, which toured, maybe a lighter weight division title, a US or North American champion (but not both) and then one regional champion and one regional tag title, with geographic names. You could have a North American title, if it was used in Canada and Mexico, as well as the US, and a US title for the US-only, assuming you had enough promotions. Sometimes, the logic of the name was a bit weak. The WWF had a North American title, which Ted Dibiase dropped to Pat Patterson. They then introduced the Inter-Continental title, claiming Patterson had defeated the South American champion, in the fictional Rio De Janeiro tournament. It was supposed to represent both Americas, but they rarely mentioned that, again. GCW renaed the Georgia singles and tag belts the National Hwt and Tag titles, because of the national reach of WTBS. Other promotions, when Vince and Crockett started expanding, replaced regional titles with ones that sounded bigger. Southeastern renamed themselves Continental Championship Wrestling and introduced a Continental title. It sounded bigger than the Southeast, even though they were still promoting Alabama and the Florida Panhandle. They still had some of the Southeastern belts, though. Some belts were just gimmick titles, like the WWF European title (originally). They were created to be a gimmick for a specific wrestler, like Davey Boy, for UK tours, or the World 6-Man titles, for the Road Warriors (and Dusty or Tenryu) in Crockett or the Von Erichs and Freebirds, in Dallas. Like I said, the CWA World title was created to call Lawler a world champion, to protect his status, since he kept failing to win the NWA or AWA World titles. The NWA Junior Hwt title became a gimmick for Les Thornton, more than a promotional title and similarly with Denny Brown and/or Lazer Tron. The IWA World title, from the 1970s Eddie Einhorn promotion, was held by Mil Mascaras. When it was created, it was a promotional title, with Mascaras as the champion. The IWA didn't last long and Mascaras kept the physical belt and used to tour with it, as his world title (which he still holds, technically). Some were created to anoint the top guy, after a promotion got going. The NWA International title came into existence when Lou Thesz first toured Japan. He wasn't the NWA World Champion; but, was coming in with his reputation as champion. He created the International Title, wore his old NWA belt, then lost to Rikidozan, the top star of the new JWA and it remained as the top title for the JWA. When the JWA broke up, it went to All-Japan, with Baba. Inoki also used an International title in New Japan, for a period of time, but purchased the old Buffalo NWF title, from Johnny Powers, to make himself a world champion. At the end of the day, if the titles aren't kept meaningful, they lose their value. They need to be the top prize or the stepping stone to the top prize and they can't be held by jabronis (at least, not regularly; a fluke win demonstrates that a title can change hands anywhere, at any time) and shouldn't be traded every week (looking at you, Memphis). You need to have some guys hold it for longer periods of time, if they are real draws.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2022 12:18:39 GMT -5
Re: Steel cage matches
The first steel cage match I saw was the one Roddy Piper and Rick Rude had around December 1989. As time went on, I got to view archive cage matches from the likes of JCP/WCW.
I have to say, I was never a fan of the format of the WWF-style cage matches. Sure, there were some great matches (Piper VS Rude was excellent), but I didn’t like the idea that the winner was the first one to leave the cage. It felt, well, cowardly. Get in there and escape. No. Also, when Hogan took on Andre in a cage at WrestleFest ‘88, it did seem like Andre was at a disadvantage, it was much harder for him to escape, either through a door or over the top.
Also, I don’t think the WWF-style cage match was conducive to a good match. When I saw Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels wrestle, I wanted to see them wrestle. It seemed a waste of both men’s talents to have Michaels continually scurrying to the cage door - with Bret chasing him.
There were some great matches. Bret VS Owen at SummerSlam ‘94. Ultimate Warrior VS Sgt. Slaughter around February 1991. Marty Jannetty VS Shawn Michaels in 1993. Really, though, I’d have rather seen those outside the confines of a steel cage.
So I did like the non-WWF cage matches, where wrestlers settled things definitively in the ring.
Also, I’m gonna presume the final blue bars steel cage match on WWF soil was Triple H VS Mankind at SummerSlam ‘97. I guess Hell in a Cell made it redundant.
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Post by codystarbuck on May 20, 2022 15:12:54 GMT -5
Re: Steel cage matches The first steel cage match I saw was the one Roddy Piper and Rick Rude had around December 1989. As time went on, I got to view archive cage matches from the likes of JCP/WCW. I have to say, I was never a fan of the format of the WWF-style cage matches. Sure, there were some great matches (Piper VS Rude was excellent), but I didn’t like the idea that the winner was the first one to leave the cage. It felt, well, cowardly. Get in there and escape. No. Also, when Hogan took on Andre in a cage at WrestleFest ‘88, it did seem like Andre was at a disadvantage, it was much harder for him to escape, either through a door or over the top. Also, I don’t think the WWF-style cage match was conducive to a good match. When I saw Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels wrestle, I wanted to see them wrestle. It seemed a waste of both men’s talents to have Michaels continually scurrying to the cage door - with Bret chasing him. There were some great matches. Bret VS Owen at SummerSlam ‘94. Ultimate Warrior VS Sgt. Slaughter around February 1991. Marty Jannetty VS Shawn Michaels in 1993. Really, though, I’d have rather seen those outside the confines of a steel cage. So I did like the non-WWF cage matches, where wrestlers settled things definitively in the ring. Also, I’m gonna presume the final blue bars steel cage match on WWF soil was Triple H VS Mankind at SummerSlam ‘97. I guess Hell in a Cell made it redundant. The whole "escape the cage" concept of a cage match just flew in the face of the reasoning behind a cage match. The whole point was to be the blow-off match, where the heel couldn't get away from the babyface, no one else could interfere, and there had to be a winner. They were usually bloody fights, with the babyface triumphant. Now, once in a while, they did a twist, like when Kerry Von Erich faced Ric Flair, in a cage, for the NWA World title, with Michael Hayes as the special guest referee, as voted by the fans (He came into World Class as a babyface). During the climax of the match, Hayes knocks Flair down (and out) and tells Kerry to cover him and Kerry refuses to cheat to win, Flair rolls him up and gets the pin. Flair leaves and Kerry tries to go after Michael Hayes and Terry Gordy slams the cage door on his head, knocking him loopy and bloody. This launched the Freebirds vs Von Erich feud, which lit World Class on fire. The WWF concept was also the reason that their cages had bars and not mesh, like most other cages, so they could climb it more easily. I did see a couple of barbed wire cage matches, in the Southwest, which was just an excuse to have everyone bleed like a stuck pig (they like that, down there). Wooden frame, with the barbed wire stapled on.
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Post by commond on May 20, 2022 16:49:34 GMT -5
I grew up on the WWF escape rules and to me they're perfectly natural. I actually prefer them to other types of cage matches. To be honest, a lot of the NWA cage matches were wildly overrated. Other promotions did a good job of adapting the WWF rules too such as All Japan Women's.
The title picture in the major US promotions is nowhere near as complicated as it is in Mexico where there were world titles, national titles, and regional titles for each weight class plus tag and trios titles. And then in the 90s they added the promotion's titles on top of things. Europe was also complicated with British, Commonwealth, European and World titles for multiple weight classes plus regional titles.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2022 7:16:36 GMT -5
Not asking to be confrontational, genuinely interested in which NWA cage matches you thought were overrated.
As for the title picture (anywhere), I bet it’s simplicity compared with the boxing titles; fed up with the silliness in boxing, not only the existence of the alphabet groups but ‘super champion this’ and ‘regular champion’ that. 🙄
I mean, look at this silliness (from Wikipedia):
And more nonsense:
And even more nonsense:
My head hurts…
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2022 11:16:04 GMT -5
I like Roman Reign’s long reign.
I don't....he's doing absolutely nothing for weeks and then boasting how long he's the reigning champion.
I was disgusted by his actions on Smackdown last night....but they are setting up a Riddle vs Reign's title match (and Riddle will lose....)
I have a feeling Finn Balor will turn on AJ Styles and join Judgement Day...
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Post by commond on May 22, 2022 18:42:44 GMT -5
Not asking to be confrontational, genuinely interested in which NWA cage matches you thought were overrated. The majority of Flair's cage matches, just about every handheld cage match I've seen, Final Conflict. There are some great matches like War Games and Tully Blanchard vs. Magnum TA, but I find the argument that NWA cage matches were better to be completely false. I would argue that over the course of its history, the WWE has had more great cage matches than the NWA did.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2022 18:45:22 GMT -5
Flair has one more match to go, at 73. Rolling my eyes.
I mean.....yeah right...we know everyone will be pulling their punches.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2022 11:34:33 GMT -5
Not asking to be confrontational, genuinely interested in which NWA cage matches you thought were overrated. The majority of Flair's cage matches, just about every handheld cage match I've seen, Final Conflict. There are some great matches like War Games and Tully Blanchard vs. Magnum TA, but I find the argument that NWA cage matches were better to be completely false. I would argue that over the course of its history, the WWE has had more great cage matches than the NWA did. Always good when a post makes you think. Although I don’t like the “escape the cage to win” premise, and Bret Hart/Shawn Michaels are not served well by a match that involves scurrying to cage doors, I do believe your post matches my opinion. I mean, “escape the cage” aside, Piper/Rude in December 1989 is a top-notch match with many memorable moments, where both men really go at it. Hogan/Bundy at WM II was certainly heated. I liked the intensity and quickness of that cage match where the Macho Man and Strike Force took on Honky Tonk Man & The Hart Foundation. Warrior/Slaughter in February 1991 had high stakes. I also remember what I consider to be a forgotten classic, Bret Hart VS Yokozuna in a steel cage (I’m gonna guess late 1993 or early 1994). If I was compiling a list, more WWF matches would make it. I just wish more WWF cage matches could have been about pinfalls and submissions.
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Post by wildfire2099 on May 23, 2022 21:27:38 GMT -5
I think, as with most things, it's all about the booking. The escape the cage version can be great fun.. IF they do it right. It can be a great story when the heel just wants to escape, but the face wants to pound him into submission. Or when the door becomes not an option and they have to climb the cage to escape.
The problem is when the logic breaks down, like when they don't leave when they clearly can, or climb to the top when they could just leave and instead do a crazy high risk move of some sort.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2022 6:07:10 GMT -5
The problem is when the logic breaks down, like when they don't leave when they clearly can, or climb to the top when they could just leave and instead do a crazy high risk move of some sort. Frustrating memory for me is when Rick Rude took on Ultimate Warrior at SummerSlam ‘90. If I remember rightly, Rude twice went to the top of the cage so that he could do a knee lift (or some move) on a wounded Warrior. Leave the cage!
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2022 7:48:12 GMT -5
Fantastic:
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Post by codystarbuck on May 24, 2022 22:30:20 GMT -5
I think, as with most things, it's all about the booking. The escape the cage version can be great fun.. IF they do it right. It can be a great story when the heel just wants to escape, but the face wants to pound him into submission. Or when the door becomes not an option and they have to climb the cage to escape. The problem is when the logic breaks down, like when they don't leave when they clearly can, or climb to the top when they could just leave and instead do a crazy high risk move of some sort. The best was an unplanned finish, when Lex Luger faced Bruiser Brody, in Florida.... Technically, the ref (Bill Alfonso, of ECW fame) disqualifies Luger (there's no DQ in a cage match!). Brody was ticked off about something. He is working at the beginning of the clip; but, around the 4 minute mark he stops selling and bumping. He starts no-selling Luger's offense and starts snatching him in legit holds, like a single leg and leg trip and a front facelock. Luger can't figure out what his problem is and Brody wouldn't clue them in. Luger starts asking Fonzie what Brody is doing and the finally do the DQ spot for Luger to get out of there. Before the footage turned up on the internet, there were all kinds of rumors that Brody showed Luger blades on each finger and Luger scampered out of the cage and similar stories. Brody was known for having issues with promoters and he wasn't above expressing displeasure with the office, in the ring, though, usually, he'd just leave the promoter high and dry. He was killed before he ever told his side; but, no one is exactly sure if he was mad at the Florida office (which was run by Mike Graham, his uncle Skip Gossett, Hiro Matsuda, Dusty Rhodes and Duke Keomoka, after Eddie Graham's suicide, in 1985) or with Luger. He is selling Luger's offense, at first (as much as Brody sold anything, outside of St Louis, Japan or Texas); but just stops. Luger's stuff was looking weak, by the time Brody stops cooperating; so, some have speculated that he thought Luger was Lazy and decided to show him up. Only he knows for sure and he was murdered a year later. Bruce Pritchard has told a story, about Brody in Houston, when he was ticked off at booker Buck Robley. Seriously, booking is always the key to anything being good, aside from the talent in the match. Your preferences for styles probably depend on how you were educated in wrestling. The first cage matches I saw were in ICW, in the traditional no DQ, fight to a finish, angle blow off. Ronnie Garvin and Randy Savage had a hell of a cage match, at the end of Ronnie's run with the promotion (before he went to Georgia and the Poffos made the deal to come into Memphis). Lanny had a pretty good one with Rip Rogers, in one of their last angles (they were often singles and tag opponents, since Lanny usually worked either tag-teams or contender for the world title). I'm trying to recall if Lanny and Garvin did a cage match or not. Towards the end of his time, Garvin turned heel and basically turned Savage babyface, though he had been a kind of "tweener," ever since the Sheik came in, for their program, in 1982. To start things off, Lanny won the tv title, from The Great Tio, then had a title vs title match against Garvin, with Garvin's Southeastern title on the line, as well as the tv title. Garvin mostly wrestles clean, but teases some heel spots. Lanny wins the title cleanly. They had a rematch and Garvin is full on heel. I can't recall if they retired the Southeastern championship before that match or after. Garvin then moves on to Randy, attacking him to set up the cage match. Ricky Steamboat & Jay Youngblood had a hell of a cage match, for the tag titles, against Sgt Slaughter & Don Kernodle, in 1983, in the Carolinas. It was the blow-off to their feud and sold out the Greensboro Colosseum (tied up traffic at the interstate exit, for quite a while, too, according to news reports). Steamboat & Youngblood were one of the best tag-teams in the world, at that point (before Youngblood's drug problems got to be too much, by the time the did the title switches, with the Briscos) and Slaughter & Kernodle were a tremendous heel team. Slaughter was so much better in the Carolinas, than the WWF (expansion era, at least) and the later AWA run. He worked his butt off there, made a terrific heel, and was believable. I enjoyed his matches with Pat Patterson and The Iron Sheik, in the WWF; but, like everything, Vince Jr turned him into more of a cartoon. It worked for the younger audience he courted; but, if you had seen earlier Slaughter, it was a big letdown.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2022 7:54:31 GMT -5
WrestleTalk Magazine has a feature out asking who is the greatest wrestler of all time in WWE. It has excluded women wrestlers for now as it feels it’ll take a while before we can see what their legacies are.
The writer of this article has come up with this list:
Bruno Sammartino Andre the Giant Hulk Hogan Bret Hart Shawn Michaels The Undertaker Stone Cold Steve Austin The Rock John Cena
Each day, I’m gonna sum up what the writer has written - and invite discussion. The writer has also listed the pros and cons of each of his choices.
First up, Bruno Sammartino. The writer’s words:
I appreciate how much the writer has tried to be objective. The length of Sammartino’s reigns are worthy of much respect, and he can be considered a trailblazer, but I take the points that it might not have continued had he entered the PPV era. Sometimes, though, comparing different eras is problematic. Should we compare a 1960s Porsche with one today? I don’t know. And we’ll never know. Perhaps Sammartino might have headlined WM III had he continued.
Over to you.
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Post by commond on May 25, 2022 8:29:15 GMT -5
The majority of Flair's cage matches, just about every handheld cage match I've seen, Final Conflict. There are some great matches like War Games and Tully Blanchard vs. Magnum TA, but I find the argument that NWA cage matches were better to be completely false. I would argue that over the course of its history, the WWE has had more great cage matches than the NWA did. Always good when a post makes you think. Although I don’t like the “escape the cage to win” premise, and Bret Hart/Shawn Michaels are not served well by a match that involves scurrying to cage doors, I do believe your post matches my opinion. I mean, “escape the cage” aside, Piper/Rude in December 1989 is a top-notch match with many memorable moments, where both men really go at it. Hogan/Bundy at WM II was certainly heated. I liked the intensity and quickness of that cage match where the Macho Man and Strike Force took on Honky Tonk Man & The Hart Foundation. Warrior/Slaughter in February 1991 had high stakes. I also remember what I consider to be a forgotten classic, Bret Hart VS Yokozuna in a steel cage (I’m gonna guess late 1993 or early 1994). If I was compiling a list, more WWF matches would make it. I just wish more WWF cage matches could have been about pinfalls and submissions. This is this mythos surrounding Southern cage matches that they're these classic bloody brawls that always end in a pinfall or submission. Nine times out of ten, they have the same cheap finish as a regular match. They're bloodier pre-Attitude era cage matches, but that doesn't automatically mean they're better bouts. I remember people spent years wishing that the footage of the Last Battle of Atlanta would surface, and when it aired on the Network, the response was muted. The best Southern style cage match is probably better than the best WWF cage match, but the thing is, once you accept the rules to a WWF cage match are what they are, you can see that there's a psychology to working escape rules cage matches. In a sense, leaving your opponent so badly beaten that they cannot prevent you from escaping the match is the same as forcing them to submit. I get that some people hate the Bret/Owen style pulling each other off the cage, and I guess some people don't like the legacy of the Jimmy Snuka spot (which actually happened after Muraco had escaped and won the match, btw), but the sheer volume of great cage matches from Madison Square Garden house shows, to TV bouts, to Hell in a Cells speaks for itself.
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