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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2022 7:09:32 GMT -5
Thirty years ago today, Survivor Series 1992 aired on PPV. This was the original poster: As we know, Mr Perfect was required to do an emergency babyface turn so as to replace Warrior. As the hype had been about Warrior and Savage teaming - and they had indeed had some bouts as a team - this felt lesser than it was, despite Perfect’s commendable turn. At the time, I was a bit lukewarm about this PPV. It was the first Survivor Series without Hulk Hogan (that may have been a huge plus for some!). But what irked me really was them doing away with the elimination format that had been used from 1987-1991. Yes, we got one elimination match here (Natural Disasters & Nasty Boys VS Money Inc. & Beverly Brothers), but I just couldn’t get enthusiastic about them doing away with what had been a tradition. Tradition aside, I don’t think the card is a strong one, other than the main event. It was good to see Bret Hart defending his WWF Championship against Shawn Michaels in a match that is perhaps the best they ever had, but has been overshadowed by later bouts between them. Really, though, I was left with a feeling of disappointment after viewing this card. I wonder, should the WWF have perhaps reached out to Hulk Hogan to fill Warrior’s place? No disrespect to Mr Perfect, but perhaps they could have got some mileage out of a “Mega Powers Reunion” - and seeing Hogan go up against Flair and Ramon might have been intriguing. Here was the UK VHS cover:
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Post by codystarbuck on Nov 25, 2022 9:26:17 GMT -5
The card took place at the Greensboro Collusseum, with a live attendance of 15,000+, and closed circuit broadcasting several locations, drawing another 30,000. Yet another of those "smoke-filled bingo halls, " that the WWE claims were the venues for pro wrestling, before they went national. It does make me smile how WWE has often tried to rewrite history. At times, I can understand why. Hogan/Andre at WrestleMania III is a good example, I suppose. No point hyping the match with “Hogan and Andre have wrestled before, Andre has been defeated before, and at least five wrestlers bodyslammed him in the past”. So I get that they had to present this Hogan/Andre bout as a ‘new match’, with an ‘undefeated’ Andre that had ‘never been bodyslammed’. I get that. Other times, it can be laughable, eh? If there’s one thing most of us wrestling fans have in common, it’s a knowledge of history, including promotions, matches and wrestlers from before our time. I remember reading about an “outlaw promotion” called the International Wrestling Association, run by Eddie Einhorn. He had plans (due to his clout/TV connections) to make the IWA a national promotion, a decade or so before Vince tried it; I also read how Einhorn “poached” stars from other companies, including the WWWF. Yet with history being written by the victors, we’re presented with a tale of Vince being the first guy to take wrestling out of the territorial era. Someone could write a good book debunking myths about “smoke-filled bingo halls” and the like. Cornette has well documented houses under Watts and Crockett, in his Midnight Express book, as he kept records of that throughout his career. They were drawing consistently large gates through about 1987. The WWF was unable to make inroads in their areas, despite the tv, until after the Turner buyout. You won't hear that on WWE programming or in their books. Both Vince and Tony Kahn would kill to have audiences like they did in the 70s, 80s and late 90s. Actually, they might desire the audiences they had in the mid-90s, when it looked like they were in severe danger. There just isn't the mass audience there once was. It is a far more niche audience, as their ratings indicate, with little or no growth, except on a very temporary basis. WWE has a pretty reliable stream of income and isn't dependent on the shows earning money and AEW is pretty much following the same model. It was quite a different thing when a promotion had to go out in front of the same crowds and draw good houses. It is rather like comics, where publishing earns them little and it is all about licensing.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2022 11:03:27 GMT -5
By the way, on a slightly related note, regarding the territories, this simplifies things a tad, but I found each had a different approach/flavour. Here are three examples, obviously my perceptions.
The WWF was very entertainment-based but - with the exception of the Slaughter/Pat Patterson “Alley Fight”, I never thought of it as any kind of hard-hitting, hardcore action. Which is fine.
What I saw of the AWA seemed semi-legitimate in a sporting way. I felt like I was watching sporting events that had less emphasis on gimmicks/creativity.
JCP/WCW seemed to be a hybrid of the WWF and AWA. Not as gimmick-driven as the WWF (although they had some), but leaning towards the sporting aspects more. Matches seemed to last longer and feature a lot of chops to the chest. Like the AWA, it seemed semi-legitimate, as if the right amount of suspension of disbelief could have you believing you were watching a sporting contest.
What did help my wrestling viewing over time - and this is lost now - were the way commentators (most of them) wore suits and ties. Tony Schiavone and Gordon Solie made the whole thing look so credible and sports-driven. No disrespect to modern WWE commentators, but other than Michael Cole, seems many of them dress casual and are more banter-driven. That’s fine. Things change. But I did like the jacket/tie and serious approach that we saw from the likes of Schiavone and Solie.
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Post by commond on Nov 25, 2022 17:47:15 GMT -5
Slaughter vs. Patterson was part of the old WWWF territory, which was every bit as good as the other territories as far as in-ring goes. There was an an attitude among fans for a long time that Bruno wasn't very good and that Backlund was boring, but it's totally untrue. If you want to watch another great brawl from the WWWF, check out the Iron Sheik vs. Sgt. Slaughter boot camp match. Even when Vince took over and changed the promotion to "Rock 'n Roll Wrestling", there was still some good wrestling. For every good WWF match in the 80s, we have various versions of it from the different WWF cities. That's how we discovered the other good matches in the Steamboat vs. Savage series, and Steamboat vs. Santana, and Valentine vs. Santana. The latter is one of the great feuds in WWF history.
As for Warrior turning, the WWF was generally very good at doing turns during that era. I may have been more susceptible to them because I was younger, but they manged to turn Savage face and Shawn Michaels heel with memorable angles during the same period. Warrior wouldn't have stuck around, so it's probably pointless to speculate about it. The problem is that the heel generally calls the match, and Warrior wasn't a good enough worker to lead a match. I think they could have easily turned him because of the insane drivel he liked to spout, but I doubt it would have been a success.
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Post by codystarbuck on Nov 25, 2022 22:52:56 GMT -5
If by WWWF, you mean Vince Sr, yeah it was under his promotion; but, they were using the WWF name, at that point, not the older name.
The flavor of a promotion was one of the strengths of that period, though it was all relative to how well they presented that flavor and how that fit your own tastes. Under Vince Sr, the WWWF was very much about the ethnic babyface champion taking on monsters and villains and knocking them off, around the loop. They had the biggest population concentration and ran bigger arenas. Cornette and Brian Last recently had a discussion about that and kind of threw out the idea that in playing to larger crowds, who were further away from the ring, they were a bit broader and more theatrical. In areas where the audience sat closer to the ring, they had to be more solid and make it look good. Their discussion was about blade jobs and how the Northeast seemed to have the most obvious blade jobs, on their tv and Cornette noted that longtime Northeastern fans seemed to smarten up earlier than those in other areas.
Bruno's style was very much power moves and brawling; but, that wasn't all they presented. Prior to Bruno on top, the big draw was Antonio Rocca, who did more highspots (for the era). Pedro was a bit different, as he mixed a little aerial, a little mat work and brawling. Backlund was about the mat work, though he did spots that showed off his incredible strength. Superstar was about showmanship and talked them into the arena, then his opponents made him look as good as they could.
The AWA was about realistic presentation, with scientific wrestling and wild brawling, but in a more believable fashion. It remained closer in style to the Golden Age of the 1950s tv wrestling, since that is where Verne cut his teeth. He liked legit athletes and even the vicious heels were usually good mat technicians (especially Mad Dog Vachon, but also Nick Bockwinkel and Sheil Adnan al Kaisse). They had a lot of larger towns, too, though spread out across the upper Midwest and Great Plains, until they also absorbed San Francisco. They also went into Winnipeg. They had a lighter schedule, which also allowed more spot shows in smaller areas, from time to time. They had big towns, like Minneapolis, Chicago, Salt Lake City, Boulder, San Francisco and Omaha.
St Louis was a one city promotion and didn't really do shows outside the city and didn't have to. Wrestling At The Chase was an institution and they drew good houses to the Kiel Auditorium and the Checker Dome. Since Sam was the NWA president, he booked the champion and brought in top talent to work there. He didn't use managers, except Bobby Heenan and didn't do much in the way of wild angles, though he had guys like Bruiser and Crusher and Bruiser Brody as regulars.
Indianapolis was built around Dick the Bruiser; but, he spent as much time working Chicago, co-promoting with Gagne, as well as wrestling in St Louis. Indianapolis was not a place to go to make money and was often a place for guys trying to move up and guys slowing down. They had tried to move in on Detroit, until a peace was brokered. Lots of blood, lots of brawls and mat wrestling. Not too dissimilar to the AWA, which is why they meshed well in Chicago and Bruiser worked there often.
Detroit was about blood, since the Sheik ran things. He had some young guys come up, too, like Gino Hernandez and there were some flyers; but, it was a lot of wild brawling and blood, for years, which is part of what killed it (along with the same guys on top and an aging audience).
In general, the Midwest liked mat wrestling and brawls, with a bit of blood.
Tennessee, especially Memphis, was about wild angles, fast matches, blood and Lawler. The Gulas end wasn't that different, other than the best talent went with Jarrett or others. At one point, Gulas & Welch controlled Tennessee and Alabama and parts of West Virginia, plus the Fuller-Welch family traded points in Florida.
Southeastern/Continental had smaller guys, some fast paced stuff, plenty of brawling, plus blood. Not dissimilar to Tennessee, but with a bit more serious tv presentation. The Knoxville end had been the same way, until the All-Star group broke away and ran opposition.
Georgia had its phases; but, from the WTBS days on, it was more serious mat wrestling and brawling, with plenty of big names mixing with the local favorites, thanks to the cable tv coverage. Once Ole pushed barnett out, it started to suffer, leading to the Briscos selling to Vince and Black Saturday and pretty much the end to Georgia, as a solo promotion. Once Crockett bought the tv slot, Georgia faded away and it was the Mid-Atlantic stuff, further South.
Mid-Atlantic had been a tag-team territory, until Flair and Steamboat came in and George Scott turned it more into singles matches. At their territory height, before their expansion, it was very much a mat-based presentation, with a lot of angles and strong promos.
Florida was strong on mat wrestling, but was noted for strong programs, with logical booking and creative finishes. Eddie Graham was often consulted by other promoters for finishes. Graham loved amateur wrestling and always maintained a connection. It was as strong as Eddie Graham's mental health. They had good towns, with sizeable audiences and a favorable climate, plus connections to Puerto Rico and other parts of the Caribbean.
Mid-South was about legit athletes and tough guys, under Watts, and believable angles and logical feuds. It got sped up with the arrival of the Midnight Express and Rock N Roll Express. Good, solid action, tough guys, great characters, with a logic that drew audiences in and let them easily suspend disbelief.
Texas, in general, was bloody brawls. Dallas was about wild fights, even with the Von Erich boys, though each had their own style to their matches. david was more psychological, while Kevin was more athletic, wilder and more hard-hitting. Kerry had the looks and charisma and was pretty agile for his size and could excel when in with a great worker, like Flair. Freebirds vs Von Erichs were tough, hard-hitting matches. Chris Adams was a smooth technician, who mixed the British style with American Flair. Gino Hernandez was solid, but more of a talker who naturally drew heat. When paired together, they were an amazing heel tag team that only fell apart because of Gino's drug use (though Adams was as bad, with alcohol and drugs).
San Antonio was pretty much brawling, with a little lucha and a little mat stuff, depending on who was booking. When I saw it, in the early 80s, Wahoo McDaniel was booking and it was hard action, with guys like Nick Bockwinkel stopping through to up the mat action. Shawn Michaels, as a rookie, was a flyer. Most of the tag-team stuff tended towards brawling. Bob Sweetan was all about rugged matches (and child molestation, it turned out) and Tully Blanchard was hated by everyone in the audience and quite a few in the locker room.
The Funks were about the brawls, though Dory and Terry could mat wrestle with anyone, as could some of their regulars, like Ricky Romero, the father of Jay, Mark and Chris Youngblood.
Portland was a lot of fighting and brawling, with some mat technicians thrown in, for good measure, but, the top stars tended to be brawlers. They had some smaller flyers there, too and it was a great training ground for young talent. Curt Hennig did some time there, Dynamite Kid, Rick Martel, Scott Levy, Art Barr started there, Bryan Adams, etc.
San Francisco, under Roy Shire, was fast, hard-hitting, with great workers, like Pat Patterson and Ray Stevens and a young Don Muraco. Strong tag-team territory, but Shire wasn't yhe most political guy and it cost him his tv.
LA was about the entertainment world and it was one of the top wrestling cities, from the 30s-60s, then slowly eroded. It was mostly about Los Angeles, though they did go out a bit, in other parts of Southern California and to Las Vegas. The Olympic Auditorium and the old Pan-Pacific Auditorium were the main venues. The Le Bell family also promoted boxing, at the Olympic and it was their real bread and butter, though wrestling was strong into the 60s, with the likes of Freddie Blassie, The Destroyer, Pat Patterson, Count Billy Varga and the Guerrerro Family, in the 70s (against Roddy Piper). LA also brought in some lucha talent, for Spanish audiences, which drew well, including Mil Mascaras, Goliath & Black Gordman and many others. Also, many Japanese talent came through there, including Rikidozan.
Hawaii was a waypoint to and from Japan and had a bit fo everything. Under the Maivias, it had a lot of brawling.
Canadian territories were different, too. The Maritimes varied a bit and used a lot of lesser known talent and American imports. Toronto was very strong, under the Tunneys, with Bruno and the Sheik as stars, plus later talent from Crockett. Montreal was a bit more of a mix of European and American styles, while Stampede was hard hitting brawls and blood, until Dynamite Kid came in and they built a solid group of flyers, to mix with the brawlers. Some technicians in there, especially some of the British imports. Good training for young talent and a conduit to England, Germany and Japan.
Germany was about tournaments, across the season, rather like a carnival attraction, though in an area for a longer time. The UK was more mat action, though some brawling, with the round system. You had Joint Promotions, which was a conglomeration, like the NWA, then All-Star, under Brian Dixon. You had Oric Williams, in Wales and Fit Finlay's father, in Belfast.
Japan followed the American influence, but, other styles filtered in, over time. After Baba and Inoki went out on there own, you see definite styles emerge. baba was more the traditional NWA stuff, as influenced by the Funks and the talent they booked through there. The homegrown talent went to work the US, to learn, then come back and move up. They built up wins and earned their way up the card. Tournaments were a big deal, especially tag-team. Also strong ties to sumo traditions, in terms of stables and presentation, if not rules. Several sumo guys came through there. Inoki was more about martial arts, mixed with wrestling, which developed into what he called Strong Style. Tiger Mask and Dynamite Kid brought a revolution in high flying and fast paced action, though Fujinami kind of set the stage for them. All-Japan wasn't as strong with the flyers, depending on the talent mix. Chavo Guerrero worked there quite a bit, and Misawa did the Tiger Mask moves, but wrestled more like a heavyweight.
IWE drew in a lot of foreign talent, mixed with more traditional JWA-style stuff. Closer in tone to All-Japan than New Japan.
By the 90s, you got a lot of independent promotions, fronted by guys who built the tone around their style. It started with the New Japan breakaways, who formed the original UWF, with a more serious presentation and more emphasis on realistic moves. However, there were factions, within, between submission wrestling and martial arts, which led to in-fighting and the end. Those factions formed the nucleus of the "shoot-style" promotions of the late 80 and early 90s, like the New UWF, which evolved into Pro Wrestling Fujiwara Gumi, Pancrase, RINGS, and UWFI (and to a lesser extent, Battlearts). Ontia started FMW, inspired by the brawls and gimmick matches of Texas and Tennessee, upped a notch, plus junior heavyweight action. WAR was Tenryu's, with a mix of garbage stuff, All-Japan style and juniors, as well as 6-man tag-teams. Universal Pro was lucha libre, with a bit of New Japan junior heavyweight, under Gran Hamada. Big Japan, W*ING and IWA were deathmatch stuff, though they also had some flyers.
Mexico also had differences. EMLL/CMLL was traditional lucha libre and the big promotion, for decades. They control Mexico City. UWA was the first major breakaway and they promoted a lot of foreign talent, with relationships with the WWF and New Japan, as well as some Europeans. Tijuana was more wild stuff and, in the 90s, was doing a mix of lucha and ECW-style mayhem and a lot of those guys (Rey Mysterio Jr, Psicosis, Juventud Guerrera) went to work for ECW. AAA was another offshoot of EMLL, with more emphasis on American showmanship. They also trademarked gimmicks, which led to imposters portraying characters, after the originals split with them, forcing name changes for the originals, like La Parka, who had to become LA Park. AAA very much followed the WWF style of flash and presentation, if not wrestling.
Puerto Rico was all about brawls and blood, with some American-style wrestling and bits of lucha libre. Mostly, it was blood and brawls.
From what 've read and heard, Australia, under Barnett, was a mix of American mat wrestling, British style and wild brawls. Kind of got the idea that New Zealand wasn't much different, under Steve Rickard. He also promoted shows in Singapore and Samoa and gave Peter Maivia his start and was a partner when Maivia ran Hawaii and Samoa.
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Post by codystarbuck on Nov 25, 2022 23:09:23 GMT -5
Tales From the Territories' latest was World Class, with Kevin Von Erich, Brian Adias, David Manning (referee and booker/office), Gorgeous Jimmie Garvin and Chavo Guerrero Jr (whose father worked Dallas, while the family promoted Juarez & El Paso). Chavo is mostly the moderator. There is talk of the Von Erich/Freebird feud, Chris Adams' drinking causing problems (Manning discusses a major incident on an Israeli tour and the flight where he got arrested after assaulting a pilot). Garvin talks a bit about the Freebirds and the whole Sunshine angle, from his valet, to Precious being added, to Sunshine's babyface turn, and the matches with her and Precious.
I nearly choked when they called Fritz and honorable promoter, given that he faked a heart attack to try to boost attendance, some questionable stuff around the boys (especially Mike and Chris), his obtaining steroids for the boys, covering up their legal issues and the like. All a matter of perspective, I guess. Obviously, Kevin loved and respected his father. With Kevin there they didn't go into the tragedies and they kept emphasizing their connection with fans; but ignored how the boys' substance problems caused them headaches with promotional appearances (no-showing, turning up loaded, etc) and the whole Lance Von Erich debacle. Also skipped anything about Gino Hernandez (covered in Dark Side of Ring, anyway) or the split with Ken Mantell, who took a lot of talent to form Wild West Wrestling, then later took other talent to Watts. Also no mention of Gary Hart and how he booked the initial Freebird/Von Erich feud and tried to make it sound like Manning did that.
The Legends of World Class Wrestling documentary is a much better vehicle for the history there, and covers most of what is discussed, here (the WWE documentary is a bit wider, but also filled with BS).
Ric Rude is mentioned, but little talk of the latter days of things, like Rude as their "world champion," Kerry's accident, Hellwig's time as the Dingo Warrior (he is shown, when they talk about talent that came through, as youngsters) and nothing of the Midnight Express and Fantastics, no mention of Skandor Ackbar (though he was more of a Mid-South fixture).
This is another where if you knew nothing, it might be more entertaining, but still rather cursory. If you have heard any of the stories, they don't add anything new to them.
Kevin has always maintained a lot of the fantasy about the promotion and the other guys seemed deferential to that.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2022 7:10:17 GMT -5
The first Survivor Series aired on PPV 35 years ago today: You know about the story pertaining to this event and Crockett’s Starrcade, so I’ll skip past that and reflect on the event. Here’s a reminder of the card: 1.) Randy Savage, Jake Roberts, Jim Duggan, Brutus Beefcake & Ricky Steamboat VS Dangerous Danny Davis, Harley Race, Hercules, The Honky Tonk Man & Ron Bass 2.) The Fabulous Moolah, The Jumping Bomb Angels, Rockin' Robin & Velvet McIntyre VS Dawn Marie, Donna Christanello, The Glamour Girls & Sensational Sherri 3.) The British Bulldogs, The Killer Bees), The Fabulous Rougeaus, Strike Force & The Young Stallions VS The Bolsheviks, Demolition, The Dream Team, The Hart Foundation & The Islanders 4.) Hulk Hogan, Bam Bam Bigelow, Don Muraco, Ken Patera & Paul Orndorff VS Andre the Giant, Rick Rude, King Kong Bundy, One Man Gang, and Butch Reed A few thoughts… Didn’t the tag team division have much depth in the 80s, eh? They did a 10-on-10 tag match in 1988, too. Couldn’t do that now. I did write a letter to WWF Magazine (never published), asking them to introduce an Intercontinental Tag Team Championship. It was a surprise to see Hogan’s team lose, but of course Hogan, who could be heelish even as a babyface, got the last laugh at the end of the night. I did enjoy the women’s bout. And the first one was very heated. I hate that they’ve done away with the elimination format at some events (e.g. 1998 and 2002 didn’t feature any elimination bouts). Survivor Series tradition should be maintained.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2022 13:03:41 GMT -5
Starrcade '87: Chi-Town Heat aired on PPV 35 years ago today: Main event saw Ric Flair challenge Ron Garvin in a steel cage match for the NWA World Heavyweight Championship. Many other titles were defended, including UWF ones as the UWF had been purchased a short while before. This was the first NWA event to be held on PPV. I had to import this at great cost back in the day. One had to send an international money order (thanks to my mother!) and wait what felt like 6-7 weeks. Probably via an ad in one of the Apter mags. But it was worth the wait. I know the buyrate for this paled in comparison with Survivor Series (which was available in more homes). But isn’t it just a solid, believable, sports-like card? (Don’t particularly care about scaffold matches, though, even if they involved the Rock ‘n’ Roll Express and Midnight Express) This card is the perfect representation of how suspension of disbelief was possible even though 100% of people knew wrestling was predetermined. I feel like watching it. I miss the 80s!
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Post by codystarbuck on Nov 27, 2022 9:23:50 GMT -5
I hated scaffold matches, as they really couldn't do anything up there but punch and kick and tease going over the side. Watching Cornette blow out his knee on the landing, from the year before, was sickening. Big Bubba (Big Bossman/Ray Traylor) was supposed to catch him; but lost him in the lights. Corny says Bubba said to him, "You fell really fast!" He still has issues with his knee, from that.
Crockett, up through 1987, is fantastic stuff (well, not Jimmy Valiant, but he was over, with the crowds) and Dusty's booking made you want to see the matches. They had tremendous talent depth.
The acquisition of UWF was badly mishandled, though, as they pretty much jobbed everyone out. I always felt Terry Taylor was greatly wasted, but, behind the scenes, it was his own fault, as he ticked off Dusty. Sting and Rick Steiner were really the only ones they picked up who they built up, but it took time. Steve Williams pretty much stuck with Japan after it was clear they had nothing for him, apart from the Varsity Club. Waste of talent.
Garvin and Flair were always great matches, regardless of what you think about them putting the title on Garvin, just so Flair could win it back, here. Garvin could work the mat and watching him trade chops with Flair made anyone a believer. It was closer to the stories of matches between Johnny Valiant and Wahoo McDaniel (who turned each other's chests into hamburger, night after night, all across the territories) than any other program in wrestling, then or now.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2022 5:04:47 GMT -5
The one good thing about Survivor series was Theory.
Getting fed up of the Bloodline.
I guess Sami Zayn might turn on the Bloodline and be next in line to face Reigns. After that, Kevin Owens? From there, hard to see what fresh opponents are left. I’d like to see Omos VS Reigns, but it may be too soon for that. He must be due to lose the title by WM XXXIX, surely?
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