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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2019 16:08:06 GMT -5
I read today that there were plans for a Hulk Hogan/Giant Gonzalez feud. Or it certainly seemed that way. (Just Google both competitors' names). I wonder, if they'd gone ahead with that, would they have believed they were recapturing the magic of the Hogan/Andre feud? I think Hogan bodyslamming Gonzalez might have got a brief cheer or two, but I am not sure there'd have been mileage in a sustained Hogan/Gonzalez feud. Speaking of El Gigante/Giant Gonzalez, an important point, which I think is lost on wrestling journalists, is that wrestling is (or at least was) an all-ages form of entertainment. Some children, including those who were very young, might have been in awe of giants like Gonzalez, Doink's exploits, the Boogeyman, etc. Yes, adults might want something more sophisticated such as a technical wrestling match, but wrestling was there for a young audience, too. That doesn't mean you make Doink the world champion, but it does mean there is and should be a place for the more colourful characters even though the 'smart' fans might not appreciate it. The Great Khali to me is a little better movement and more agile to the point. Giant Gonzales in the WWF/WWE is slower and more intimidating and El Gigante is more terrifying and to me ... I felt GG at 7'7" and 463 pounds and Great Khali at 7'1" and 347 pounds to me is a toss up in terms of Strength. Here's a clip with El Gigante with Ric Flair. I like them both ... but GG is amazing in Wrestlemania 9 against the Undertaker.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2019 6:01:40 GMT -5
Giant Gonzalez had a good look. And he'd make a bloody good action figure.
There is a part of me that misses the more cartoony aspects of WWF/E. Yes, I like the serious stuff, the JCP/WCW stuff. But I like a variety. I'm not saying we bring back Doink. And some gimmicks such as TL Hopper and Duke Droese did not appeal to me. However, gimmicks such as the Big Boss Man added something, I feel. I like how he would talk about law and order when dispensing justice.
Speaking of that, as a kid, I told my friend that the Mountie should have turned face and teamed with Big Boss Man. The team could have been called Law and Order.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2019 9:43:47 GMT -5
Speaking of that, as a kid, I told my friend that the Mountie should have turned face and teamed with Big Boss Man. The team could have been called Law and Order. That's would be an awesome tag team.
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 20, 2019 18:08:36 GMT -5
Don't know if you guys have watched GLOW, on Netflix; great series, as a tv series; but, also, the best depiction of wrestling training and storytelling done The third season is up now, with the group about to debut as a performing show, at a Las Vegas casino (the fictional Fan-Tan). The opening show stars with the opening day, which coincides with the Challenger launch, that ended in tragedy.
Gina Davis plays an ex-showgirl who became entertainment director, who handles promotion of the show. We will see some personal upheavals, some major changes in characters and a few episodes that at least, in part, deal with LGBT issues of the day. There is an episode where everyone swaps characters that is pretty funny, as well as a Christmas Carol show, for the finale.
The series is inspired by the documentary about the original GLOW promotion, created by David McLane, former photographer and announcer for the 80s WWA, in Indianapolis. McLane had the concept for a women's promotion, from some performers who work shows for the WWA, as well as the Peter Falk movie, All The Marbles. He found some backing and a tv producer and put together a pilot, after recruiting wannabe wrestlers. They were trained by Mando Guerrero, older brother of Eddie. They did the pilot, then moved to the Riviera Hotel and Casino, in Las Vegas, where they taped the shows, as both an attraction for the casino and a free venue for the tapings. Guerrero was only involved in the pilot and seasoned wrestler, Princess Jasmine, took over continuing the training, before others started handling the training. They were a combination of actresses, models, sports models, showgirls (Col Ninotchka) and dancers. They did 4 seasons of Hee-Haw-style skits and jokes, with rather wild, uncoordinated matches, as the experienced performers left early and you had barely trained performers training the next group. After the second season, there is a split between McLane and the producer and McLane is bought out. He went back to Indianapolis and started POWW (Powerful Women of Wrestling). Coming with him was one of the best performers, under the name Tina Ferrari, whose real name was Lisa Moretti, who would later work in the WWE as Ivory. POWW worked with the WWA and AWA; but, didn't last long. GLOW folds after 4 seasons, though they made additional appearances on married With Children, Family Feud (charity showdown against WCW wrestlers, including Sting, Luger and some others).
The tv show drew from the stories told in the documentary and you can see elements of the original GLOW girls in the characters. Col Ninotchka, the lead heel, became Alison Brie's character, Zoya the Destroyer. American became Liberty Belle, Hollywood became Melrose, Godiva becomes Brittanica, the Terrorist becomes Beirut, etc.... The character of Cherry Bang, a stuntwoman and B-movie actress, sort of fills Princess Jasmine's role, while the money man, Bash Howard, is a bit of David McLane, and a bit of the money man who owned the Riviera (and was married to Pia Zadora). Chavo Guerrero Jr did the training and wrestling choreography, which he was interviewed, originally, without knowledge of Mondo's role in the original. He appears in season two, as a wrestler, with Carlito Colon, who plays Kurt Jackson, brother of Carmen "Machu Pichu" Jackson. Carlito appeared in season 1 (and returns for an episode of season 3), along with Tyrus/Brodus Clay, as Carmen's brothers (she is the daughter of pro wrestler Goliath Jackson and her brothers wrestle as a tag-team, the Lumber-Jacksons).
Season 3 has some really good character stuff and we get more of Kia Stevens, aka Awesome Kong, a real pro wrestler in Japan, TNA and the WWE, Gayle Rankin, as Sheila gets some really meaty stuff this season, Jackie Tohn, as Melrose, gets to do more, as does Ellen Wong, who plays Jenny Chen. They expand on the attraction between Ruth and Sam, the director, as well as the relationship that developed in season 2 between new wrestler Yolanda (Cholo Junkchain), and Arthie (Beirut). Some of the LGBT stuff comes through their relationship, some through Bash (who is gay and closeted/in denial), and some from a drag show in the casino, whose performer gets involved with the women in several aspects and they help put on a drag show AIDS research fundraiser, that really brings it to focus (Season 2 also had Bash's best friend/butler, Florian, die of AIDS).
If you haven't watched it, give it a go; really good writing, humor, drama, characters, and a respect for wrestling that has long been missing in these kinds of things.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 9:02:58 GMT -5
Thanks, Cody. That show has long been on my list (every time I log on to Netflix, there are a dozen compelling shows advertised!). But I wish to watch it.
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 21, 2019 11:09:34 GMT -5
Thanks, Cody. That show has long been on my list (every time I log on to Netflix, there are a dozen compelling shows advertised!). But I wish to watch it. Season 1 is about introduction and training. Alison Brie is Ruth Wilder, a struggling actress who longs for bigger and meatier parts. A casting director turns her onto the GLOW auditions, where we meet the rest. Her friend Debbie is a former soap opera actress, and new mother. She ends up involved in the group, by accident. We see Ruth finding her character and the finale has them taping their pilot. There are real wrestlers involved: Chavo Guerrero Jr (behind the scenes trainer & choreographer), John Morrison, Tyrus/Brodus Clay, Carlito Colon, Joey Ryan, Alex Riley and Brooke Hogan (who is neither a wrestler, nor much of an actress, as she demonstrates). Season 2 has the group taping their shows, dealing with harassment from a network exec, divorce, and identity issues. One episode features an episode is presented entirely as an episode of te GLOW tv show (fictional version), done in the style of the original; but, with better skits and acting (and wrestling). New wrestler Yolanda is introduced, an openly gay stripper/dancer. Chavo Guerrero Jr and Carlito Colon appear in the finale (Chavo plays "Chico Guapo.") Season 3 finds the group in Las Vegas, putting on nightly shows, but always the same show (the original put on different matches, for tapings), until they change things up for their last show (Freaky Tuesday) and then a Christmas show (they get extended at the casino), where they do an adaptation of A Christmas Carol, with Zoya as Scrooge, who faces the Ghost of Christmas Future (Carmen) in a match, where Carmen does some Undertaker stuff (since she represents Death). Carlito Colon appears in an episode. Some interesting parallels to the original GLOW, that came up, by chance. The producers were unaware that Mando Guerrero had trained the original group, when they were interviewing his nephew, Chavo Jr, about the role of trainer/choreography. Kia Stevens, who wrestled as Awesome Kong, had a connection to the original group. Her mother worked as a minor actress and audience coordinator for tv game shows and had done a B-movie with Americana, the original GLOW champion. The original performers have not been involved; but, Little Egypt has hosted a podcast, for Buzz TV, where each episode examined a pair of the tv episodes, with one of the other originals, plus cast members. Guests included Americana, Godiva, Hollywood and David McLane, himself, who did not appear in the documentary, as he was afraid it was going to be a hatchet job and the producers couldn't convey what they wanted to present. He adds quite a bit of history missing from the documentary, though he is such a huckster that you have to be really patient to listen to him (hated his announcing, in the WWA and on GLOW). Kia Stevens got to meet Americana and remind her of her mother and she instantly remembered her and told her she had copies of the movie they did that could replace the one they lost in a fire. It was a really sweet episode of the podcast. (You can see them on Youtube). Netflix also has the GLOW documentary, which includes a reunion, participation by Lisa Morettie, Dee "Matilda the Hun" Booer, Mt Fiji (whose character Carmen is based upon), Little Egypt, Hollywood, Godiva, Americana, Suzy Spirit, Big Mama, and just about everyone of the originals (including Col Ninotchka).
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 14:57:29 GMT -5
Any thoughts on WrestleMania IV? I first saw this around 1992. The video store in my area began stocking all the Silver Vision tapes. Bear in mind that back then, I had no idea about the results as there was no Google/Wikipedia. I'd started watching WWF around 1989/90. Although I knew some historical results (due to WWF Magazine), I didn't know them all. That said, I knew that Macho Man had won the world title at this event. It was my least favourite PPV at the time. The tournament was an unwieldy mess. To have first round matches, quarterfinals, seminfinals and the final on one show was too much. King of the Ring never used to do that. Might it not have been better to have the first round matches on TV, leaving a slimmed-down tournament on PPV? Plus, one thing I hated about tournaments from the pre-Attitude Era is that they never mixed the faces and heels. It might have been an idea to do that, e.g. have someone like Rick Rude going up against One Man Gang in the quarterfinals or perhaps two faces (Jake Roberts and Bam Bam Bigelow) going at it in the quarterfinals. No, tournaments during the Hogan Era didn't do that. In fact, it was very rare to see faces vs faces or heels vs heels. It happened, of course. Hogan VS Warrior is certainly a big example of that. I remember a 1994 match where Bam Bam Bigelow and Adam Bomb took on the Quebecers. Didn't Jake face Savage in 1986 when both were heels? For the most part, though, faces only took on heels. All that aside, the tournament was interminable. It had its moments. I like the final match. Seeing Hogan and Andre battle to an inconclusive finish didn't please me. It just felt like the tournament was there to pass the time. It was a chore to sit through. I did enjoy Bad News Brown's actions during the Battle Royal (LOL). Demolition VS Strike Force impressed me. There was some humour and entertainment value in Brutus Beefcake VS Honky Tonk Man. And Ultimate Warrior VS Hercules appealed to my young eyes, although at the time of seeing this, I had hoped Warrior would have been in the world title tournament. All in all, not one of my favourite WM events. It served its purpose - and led to the Mega Powers VS DiBiase/Andre. It just wasn't one I revisited much, if at all.
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 21, 2019 19:07:52 GMT -5
Meh..... Any Wrestlemania with Trump's involvement was terrible, which should have been a sign. the Casino venue was terrible, for presentation and Trump desperately needed a draw, as that place was sinking fast. The crowd didn't give a defecation and it killed any atmosphere for the card. The tournament wasn't particularly well booked, though at least Savage got his due, defeating Ted Dibiase. problem was, Savage wasn't allowed to win it on his own, having Hogan interfere for him, which tainted things. Mach vs Ted should have been fantastic, as Ted was probably the best worker in the business, capable of being both heel and babyface. He had been groomed ot be NWA World Champion and would have been perfect; but, he didn't seem to want it and didn't play the political games. McMahon wasted him with the gimmick he created for himself, keeping him as a source of personal amusement, rather than exploiting Dibiase's pure skill in the ring. dibiase had so many better matches in Mid-South and georgia, not to mention Japan, before his neck got messed up. Savage wrestled 3 matches, which he could easily do and was in with great workers. His semi-final match was a throwback to his days as ICW World Champion, in his family's promotion. One Man Gang (the future Akeem) got his early start in ICW, as Crusher Broomfield, who was a stooge/muscle for Randy, until Ronnie Garvin won his freedom, in a match (they were redoing old Crusher Jerry Blackwell angles, from Knoxville, where Garvin came from, before ICW). Then, Crusher took on Savage in a title match over the course of an entire tv show.... Gang could move, for a guy his size and, in Mid-South, Dallas, Florida, and Mid-Atlantic, was portrayed as a dangerous monster. WWF started out using him that way; but, didn't do it very effectively. he was fed to Hogan, then dropped down the card. Big mistake. Akeem was a repackaging to do something with him, as the One Man Gang gimmick was killed. Incidentally, the One Man Gang name came from Ronnie Garvin, as that was his nickname in Southeastern and ICW. He only became the hands of Stone, when Crockett took over Georgia. Garvin's gimmick had been that he was, literally, a one man gang. He beat on everyone. The WWF did not do tournaments well. The Japanese know how to do these thing and make them important. Vince never makes the tournament seem important; so, most matches are throwaways, except the final and whatever sets up the final (usually the semis, where an angle goes down). Southern promotions did them much better, also, as they built to a big finish, each match more important than the last. Even Southwest Championship Wrestling (Joe Blanchard's San Antonio promotion, where Shawn michaels got his start) did it better with their bogus World title tournament. they claimed invitations were sent to other promotions; but, it was just their current guys, using Terry funk's copy of the NWA belt. The finals had Adrian Adonis (before he was doing the Adorable bit) and Bob orton Jr, in a fantastic match between two natural workers. Adonis won and was presented the belt and the original NWA World title belt, held by Lou Thesz...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 20:43:00 GMT -5
I have a buddy that has Netflix and he watch GLOW Wrestling too. So, I'm going to watch it from time to time.
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 21, 2019 22:01:35 GMT -5
Just came across this, from the Canadian site, Slam Wrestling, with Jim Cornette and Jerry Jarrett, talking about the real "Mama" Cornette... Shame jim looks nothing like his mother.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2019 8:46:39 GMT -5
I feel some WWF tournaments were done well. The tag team title tournament (late 1994/early 1995, I think), which resulted in the 1-2-3 Kid and Bob Holly winning the belts, was built well, I feel. It was presented as a tournament that anyone could win.
The first two PPV versions of King of the Ring were executed well for me. They had gripping "anything can happen" scenarios, leading to great wins for Bret in 1993, and then Owen in 1994. At the time, and call it naivety, I believed anyone could win.
I am not sure why Mabel won the 1995 tournament. I would have preferred Shawn Michaels in the final.
The 1996 tournament felt less about the competitors and solely about putting Stone Cold Steve Austin over. As time went on, the tournament meant less to me.
But I would have liked some mixing up of faces and heels. Obviously, the 1993 tournament saw Bret Hart and Mr. Perfect have a great face vs face match. In 1994, I wanted a match between heels Bam Bam Bigelow and IRS. It never happened. Ramon had beaten Bigelow in the quarterfinals, so the semi-final was Ramon VS IRS. But - and don't ask me why - I was intrigued by the prospect of seeing the fleet-footed and nimble IRS against the monster Bam Bam Bigelow.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2019 10:16:55 GMT -5
The King of the Ring is one of those things that I really don't care for.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2019 12:06:41 GMT -5
The 1993 tournament felt important. Even Hogan's defence of the WWF Title felt secondary. And that was right. It was about the tournament. The tournament lent its name to the PPV after all.
The 1994 tournament felt important. Oddly, though, Roddy Piper VS Jerry Lawler was the main event. Not the KOTR final, not the world title match, but Piper/Lawler. Still, the tournament felt important.
I would say the 1995 one, though flawed, was the same. I know we'll discuss this PPVs in more depth nearer the time.
The 1996 KOTR tournament had, in my view, throwaway matches. It was solely about crowning Austin. And to be honest, although it's all subjective, the card felt more about the Davey Boy Smith/Shawn Michaels main event.
From 1997 onwards, the tournament felt secondary to other matches. I mean, without checking Wikipedia, could the average WWF fan name a KOTR tournament match from 1998? Perhaps not, we tend to remember the Undertaker/Mankind match instead.
I think it had its day a long time ago.
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 22, 2019 12:38:42 GMT -5
The 1993 tournament felt important. Even Hogan's defence of the WWF Title felt secondary. And that was right. It was about the tournament. The tournament lent its name to the PPV after all. The 1994 tournament felt important. Oddly, though, Roddy Piper VS Jerry Lawler was the main event. Not the KOTR final, not the world title match, but Piper/Lawler. Still, the tournament felt important. I would say the 1995 one, though flawed, was the same. I know we'll discuss this PPVs in more depth nearer the time. The 1996 KOTR tournament had, in my view, throwaway matches. It was solely about crowning Austin. And to be honest, although it's all subjective, the card felt more about the Davey Boy Smith/Shawn Michaels main event. From 1997 onwards, the tournament felt secondary to other matches. I mean, without checking Wikipedia, could the average WWF fan name a KOTR tournament match from 1998? Perhaps not, we tend to remember the Undertaker/Mankind match instead. I think it had its day a long time ago. Piper and Lawler was supposed to be a feud in 1983, in Georgia. Lawler came in as a heel, while staying a babyface, in memphis, cutting promos on an absent Piper. Piper responded the following week and you had the two best pure talkers in the business insulting each other. Would have been great. Then, Ole Anderson fired Piper, who was splitting his time with Mid-Atlantic and went there full time, for angles with Greg Valentine and ric Flair, before becoming the lead heel, for Vince. Problem was, it was a bit too late, for Piper as a ring performer; plus, they didn't have that same level of build-up. Lawler had a tough time, when he first came into the WWF. There was a lot of bad blood with wrestlers who worked memphis, for peanuts, while Lawler, as part owner, got rich. Steve Keirn, who bore the brunt of it more than anyone, as half of the Fabulous Ones, decided to give Lawler a special welcome and took a dump in Lawler's crown. Childish, to be certain; but, it sent a message to Lawler that he had to earn people's respect there. He did, though his own shady life interrupted that first run, as he aced charges of statutory rape. he was acquitted, though there was evidence of witness tampering and plenty of unproduced evidence of Lawler's history with underaged girls. One wrestler said he was involved with Stacy Carter, his later wife (The Kat), when she was 13. That wrestler faced legal issues over an underaged girl and was a major drug user; so, he was a questionable source. However, plenty have corroborated that Lawler had many encounters with girls under 18 and that Memphis was known for underage "ring rats" (groupies).
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2019 12:57:52 GMT -5
Gosh, a dump in a crown?! WTF?!
The Piper/Lawler match at KOTR '94 seemed an odd addition to the PPV. Bret Hart defended the WWF Title against Diesel while Razor Ramon and Owen Hart wrestled in the tournament final. Yet both were overshadowed by Piper/Lawler. Or were they? It's hard to say. If the WWF had had monthly PPVs back then, perhaps Piper and Lawler could have wrestled at another event.
I read a letter years ago which claimed Hogan's debut in WCW overshadowed the Piper/Lawler match. But did it really? There was always overlap with wrestling fans, but most of us, myself included, watched both. Sure, American fans had to make a decision when Nitro and Raw went head-to-head. And some PPVs may have aired the same time as a supercard (didn't WM IV air the same night as Clash of the Champions?). But I really don't see how Hogan's WCW debut, and subsequent feud with Ric Flair, could possibly have taken anything away from Piper/Lawler.
Fans who were into both would simply have watched both. I just feel, based on my perceptions at the time, that there just wasn't the appetite for Piper/Lawler. It did feel like an afterthought in some respects. They had the KOTR tournament, they had Bret defending the world title, etc. Shouldn't those have sold the PPV? Why the need for a veterans' match?
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