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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2019 15:00:50 GMT -5
That's where Russo failed for me in WCW. We didn't want WWF-lite. We didn't want silly angles such as Ric Flair being buried in the desert and the Stacy Keibler/David Flair romance. I'm not totally blaming Russo. Years before he joined WCW, the promotion was doing silly stuff like the "Search For Cactus Jack" segments or the debut of the Shockmaster. However, Russo seemed to want to turn WCW into WWF-lite, but it was just an inferior version of the Attitude Era, which turned many, many fans away. I like the variety in wrestling. When I wanted cartoony gimmicks and heavyweight brawls, I'd tune into Prime Time Wrestling and watch the Barbarian go up against the Berzerker. But when I wanted wrestling, I'd tune into WCW Worldwide and watch Barry Windham defend the WCW Television Title against Stunning Steve Austin. Give people variety - and we all benefit. As far as Russo goes ... he is one of MAJOR players that destroyed WCW. To me, I hate the silly stuff like WCW did the most idiotic thing with the Shockmaster that turned out to be Tugboat and that bothered me for years and I just couldn't get past that. I also hated WWF did that stupid Chicken thing too. Called the Gobbledy Gooker ... something like that. I really miss WCW Worldwide and ... I missed about 80% of the shows due to work. We need variety and I want AEW to shine.
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 24, 2019 15:02:25 GMT -5
This is from a few years ago. Cornette and Jim Ross lay out exactly what you need to succeed in wrestling, both as an established company and a new promotion...
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 24, 2019 15:22:28 GMT -5
That's where Russo failed for me in WCW. We didn't want WWF-lite. We didn't want silly angles such as Ric Flair being buried in the desert and the Stacy Keibler/David Flair romance. I'm not totally blaming Russo. Years before he joined WCW, the promotion was doing silly stuff like the "Search For Cactus Jack" segments or the debut of the Shockmaster. However, Russo seemed to want to turn WCW into WWF-lite, but it was just an inferior version of the Attitude Era, which turned many, many fans away. I like the variety in wrestling. When I wanted cartoony gimmicks and heavyweight brawls, I'd tune into Prime Time Wrestling and watch the Barbarian go up against the Berzerker. But when I wanted wrestling, I'd tune into WCW Worldwide and watch Barry Windham defend the WCW Television Title against Stunning Steve Austin. Give people variety - and we all benefit. As far as Russo goes ... he is one of MAJOR players that destroyed WCW. To me, I hate the silly stuff like WCW did the most idiotic thing with the Shockmaster that turned out to be Tugboat and that bothered me for years and I just couldn't get past that. I also hated WWF did that stupid Chicken thing too. Called the Gobbledy Gooker ... something like that. I really miss WCW Worldwide and ... I missed about 80% of the shows due to work. We need variety and I want AEW to shine. Turkey, actually; but still poultry. That was actually Hector Guerrero, if you can believe it! It started out as a nice mystery angle, with the egg. What's inside? That's an old wrestling angle: the mystery box. You'd have a big old packing crate, the size of a refrigerator. You'd have it delivered to the studio and everyone is wondering what is inside. Usually, it was a surprise for the heel. ICW did it twice. They had an earlier angle where Ronnie Garvin produced a tag-team partner, the Canadian Bumblebee, who was Crusher Broomfield, under a mask. He then did some kind of spoof (I've only seen the clips that were used in the show opening) where the box is opened and out comes a midget ina bumblebee costume, to get one over on Savage. They did it again with the Ms Macho man Contest. They did a contest where Savage was searching for a Ms Macho Man. Ronnie Garvin and Lanny Poffo wheeled in this crate, for Randy, with their entry. Savage is going nuts (short trip) and opens the door to find his ally, Pistol Pez Whatley, in a bra, panties, stockings and blond wig, tied to a chair and gagged. He's hollering up a storm while Savage tries to get him loose, while Garvin and Lanny and the announce team are laughing their heads off. That led to a follow up, where Garvin is wrestling on tv and gets attacked by Pez and the Great Tio, and Pez works him over with a lead pipe, injuring his back (Garvin actually hurt it at a house show). Garvin goes looking for revenge. A Georgia indie, Southern Championship Wrestling, did it with a box for Mr Wrestling 2, when out pops Col. Buck Robley, who attacks II and leaves him laying, to set up their match for an upcoming charity show. The WWF did this and gave us...........the Gobbledy-Gooker. There was an Easter Egg on the Eddie Guerrero dvd set, from the WWE, with Hector talking about it and whispering to Gene Okerlund that the crowd hates it. Gene replied "Let's just do the stupid dance and get out of here!" The WWF later did it in the Attitude Era, with Chainsaw Charlie, when Foley brought out the box and Terry Funk comes out of it by cutting through the side, with a chainsaw, while wearing a stocking mask over his head to "hide" his features. It's the same with cake in the face angles. When done right, the heel gets embarrassed, then gets his revenge by laying out the babyface, leading to a big match. When done like the WWF/E, it's just a dumb food fight. Cornette has talked about this, about how to use comedy in wrestling; it's all about context. Chuck Taylor and his invisible grenade may be funny, at a dinky indie show, with less than 200 people, to liven things up because no one knows how to work the crowd. It's another thing to do that on major tv or a PPV, or even worse; the invisible man tag-team. If the crowd has come for a comedy show, that might fly; if they come to a wrestling show, it doesn't get over. At least, not with a big crowd. You can get away with something like that, if there is a context, and the rest of the show is solid.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2019 16:01:08 GMT -5
At the time, I predicted the egg would unleash King Kong Bundy...who at that point hadn't been in the WWF since 1988. I really expected it to be him.
I don't know why. Just a gut feeling. I was wrong.
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 24, 2019 18:31:56 GMT -5
At the time, I predicted the egg would unleash King Kong Bundy...who at that point hadn't been in the WWF since 1988. I really expected it to be him. I don't know why. Just a gut feeling. I was wrong. Nah, Vince just does stuff like this to amuse himself. he was a pretty big coke user, before the steroid scandals led to drug testing. The story goes that the night before it was to go in effect, there was a massive party, with the boys and Vince, where everyone did their stuff, for "one last time." 80s WWF had a lot of coke users, from wrestlers to announcers. They weren't alone in that, as that wa a problem in some territories, too. Buddy Landel was notorious for it in various places and Gino Hernandez was a massive user, in Dallas, as covered on Vice TV's recent Dark Side of the Ring show. If you guys haven't seen any of that, I highly recommend it, especially the Bruiser Brody murder episode, the Montreal Screwjob episode (where Cornette reveals he's the one who gave the idea to Vince), and the Gino Hernandez episode, which finally answered the question as to whether he was Paul Boesch's (Houston promoter) illegitimate son. Dutch Mantell and Mick Foley do narration in these and Cornette is a big participant and has helped with historical detail and memorabilia (wrestling mags, photos, posters, etc). There are some clips on Youtube, including Corny showing them the "Vault" his memorabilia collection, in Castle Cornette.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2019 19:11:55 GMT -5
^^^ I enjoyed that Viceland Clip codystarbuck.
It would be cool if Ring Of Honor, AEW, and TNA Impact band together in single combined forces to destroy WWE once for all. This merger will never happen ... but it would be nice if this thing did.
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 24, 2019 20:06:45 GMT -5
^^^ I enjoyed that Viceland Clip codystarbuck. It would be cool if Ring Of Honor, AEW, and TNA Impact band together in single combined forces to destroy WWE once for all. This merger will never happen ... but it would be nice if this thing did. I wouldn't want to see WWE destroyed, any more than I wanted WCW to die, even when it was so bad I stopped watching. Competition is better for the industry. It keeps every one on their toes, makes people work harder, gives more opportunity to the boys, and gives a greater variety to fans and casual viewers. that was the thing about 1982, as shown in my post. Depending on where you lived, whether you had cable and syndication packages, you could see a lot of different wrestling. there were a lot of places for wrestlers to work a full time schedule and make good money. There were places to develop and grow. If you were an undercard guy in memphis, you might go to Mid-South and get pushed up the card, then come back to Memphis a star. Guys would leave territories for 6-8 months and return fresh, with new opponents and angles. Some guys would go off and do guest shots for a few dates then come back home. You had big spectaculars, where you might have a stadium show, with a great, loaded card. When WCW went under, that was it. There was nowhere else to go, except japan, if you were very lucky. TNA wasn't paying much, so it wasn't exactly an alternative and they didn't tour; so, you had to pick up indy shots, at low pay. You could not work a full schedule and most indy guys are weekend warriors, working a weekly job, then wrestling between Friday and Sunday, for little or no money. Ring of Honor isn't paying much, either, and WWE doesn't pay the average wrestler as much as they used to make, when they had a fuller touring schedule. Things are always better with competition. TV was better when the 3 networks were vying to win the hour. Cable so diluted things that network advertising rates dropped, which meant less was available to pay for shows, which meant they went for cheap alternatives. When they got a hit, they threw money at the cast to keep it going, often well past its expiration date. Before the FCC ownership rules were changed by the Reagan Administration, no one owner could have more than 2 stations in a market, which led to more variety on the local airwaves. Now, entire cities are owned by single companies, like Sinclair. They have the same cookie cutter formats, same play lists, same advertising, and same conservative political editorials masquerading as a station editorial. Used to be, you couldn't do that, without offering equal time to the opposition. Monopolies are always bad. look at comics; when there were more distributors, indie companies were more successful. When Diamond became the sole game, the indies started dropping like flies.
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 24, 2019 20:15:15 GMT -5
I would like to see Lucha Underground, AEW, ROH and the WWE turn into profitable, popular companies, along with smaller groups, like MLW. I'd like to see them each fill a niche in the market and give the viewer a variety and be able to provide full time work for the wrestlers, just like tv performers. I miss the days of the NWA, AWA and WWF, with the regional NWA promotions and the independent, but significant promotions (Houston, Mid-South, Memphis). Heck, in the late 70s and early 80s, they all worked together. Verne and Vince Sr attended the annual NWA convention, just like the actual NWA promoters. They didn't necessarily have a vote; but, it was a chance to get with other promoters and talk about talent swaps, or dates for guys for big shows, or co-promotions. The AWA and WA were involved in the Ali-Inoki fight, as was the WWWF. Ali did a workout with AWA wrestlers, before the fight was broadcast, and Gene LeBell, of the LA promotion, was the ref (as a shooter, who would keep Inoki from puling anything and as someone whose family had promoted boxing at the Olympic Auditorium, for Ali's camp). Vince Jr even appeared in the ring of the workout, which was shown on ABC's Wide World of Sports
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2019 21:03:27 GMT -5
I would like to see Lucha Underground, AEW, ROH and the WWE turn into profitable, popular companies, along with smaller groups, like MLW. I'd like to see them each fill a niche in the market and give the viewer a variety and be able to provide full time work for the wrestlers, just like tv performers. I miss the days of the NWA, AWA and WWF, with the regional NWA promotions and the independent, but significant promotions (Houston, Mid-South, Memphis). Heck, in the late 70s and early 80s, they all worked together. Verne and Vince Sr attended the annual NWA convention, just like the actual NWA promoters. They didn't necessarily have a vote; but, it was a chance to get with other promoters and talk about talent swaps, or dates for guys for big shows, or co-promotions. The AWA and WA were involved in the Ali-Inoki fight, as was the WWWF. Ali did a workout with AWA wrestlers, before the fight was broadcast, and Gene LeBell, of the LA promotion, was the ref (as a shooter, who would keep Inoki from puling anything and as someone whose family had promoted boxing at the Olympic Auditorium, for Ali's camp). Vince Jr even appeared in the ring of the workout, which was shown on ABC's Wide World of Sports I would like to see this happen. This would make it much better.
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 24, 2019 23:39:04 GMT -5
Jim Cornette did a review of AEW's Double or Nothing PPV, back at the end of May.
He notes this is not the tv; but was indicative of problems and potential. He criticizes the pre-show matches and comedy junk, which featured mainly low end indie guys, doing dumb things, with no purpose and the kinds of things that TNT will not allow on a tv show on their network (staples to the crotch). There was a wrestler with no legs, with no backstory given to him. Announcing was criticized. they used a 3-man team of Jim Ross, Alex Marvez and Excalibur. Ross was praised but was left carrying the thing. marvez is a journalist who covered wrestling during the Monday Night Wars, often working with Dave Meltzer. Excalibur is an announcer for California's pro Wrestling Guerrilla indi and wears a mask. No explanation of why he wears a mask was given. Marvez is not a broadcast journalist and was terrible, per the review (with bryan last, the co-host, agreeing).
MJF (Maxwell Jacob Friedman) was praised as the best heel in the business, with unscripted promos and great work in the ring. Cody and Dustin Rhodes were praised in their match and Dustin was said to have had his best match, ever and that he has improved with age. They hope his body can hold up, as he is 50. Jericho was praised but said to be out of shape and with a bad hair weave (according to Last). Kenny Omega got a pass, but was trashed on some stupid comedy. Young Bucks were said to have no rhyme or reason. The wrestlers working for the Chinese promotion OWE were praised (CIMA). Awesome Kong was a big deal, but they felt she was ill-used.
Cornette's assessment for what they needed in the tv and going forward: A group of guys who fit together, not just random wrestlers thrown together, storylines that give meaning to matches, reasons for things occuring, lose the mask on Excalibur and use him with Ross, but lose Marvez, dump the comedy and focus on competition, then bring comedy in when they are established, give things meaning, use Jack Whitehall more, as he had more energy than the ring announcer (British stand-up comic, writer, actor). All make sense. he also questioned the use of guys like orange Cassidy and Chuck Taylor, plus other indies guys in the pre-show matches, who weren't up to snuff, if they are serious about being a major company. Give casual fans a reason to care, as too much of it was aimed at existing indie fans who bought the PPV as a destination, rather than the curious. Need to educate new fans. Use MJF in a more high profile role; he is money.
They gave it a middle grade, which sounded pretty fair, though indie fans and some of the wrestlers have been very touchy about even constructive criticism, which isn't going to help improve things and it will need to improve, as any new venture will.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2019 3:51:19 GMT -5
The thing about competition, putting aside the benefit to viewers, is how a wrestler can become fresh simply by jumping ship.
Love him or hate him, Lex Luger did that. He was challenging Yokozuna for the WWF World Championship in 1993; in 1994, he was wrestling Tatanka over bragging rights pertaining to the Million Dollar Corporation; and in 1995, he didn't even wrestle at SummerSlam in a match, he simply performed a run-in during the Diesel/King Mabel main event.
It was clear to me at the time that his wrestling career had stalled. Even the tag team with Davey Boy Smith didn't set my world alight.
However, when jumping ship to WCW, he was fresh again. He was wrestling Hulk Hogan. He soon got back in the main event picture. Less than a year after returning to WCW, he was challenging for the WCW World Title. He won the WCW World Title less than two years after returning to the company.
So there is that freshness thing. Scott Hall wasn't making a big impact as Diamond Studd, but after switching to the WWF, he went on to do great things, including becoming Intercontinental Champion more than once.
This is what depressed me when WCW went under. It meant stars no longer had that freshness option. Stuck in the WWF mid-card? Tough! Deal with it! There's no promotion to jump ship to (certainly not in the United States), so it didn't benefit the wrestler or the fans.
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 25, 2019 14:32:45 GMT -5
That was the thing about the territories; you could go work elsewhere, when you had grown stale. Then, you could come back to a territory fresh. Also, for the young guys, you'd work 5-6 days a week, sometimes 2 shows a day (weekends), in front of regular crowds. You learned what worked and what didn't, you worked with experienced talent; and, if you were willing to learn and listen, would soak up a ton of knowledge. Then, you might move to a new territory and higher up the card. Bill Watts came to Memphis looking for some talent and too a B-Team tag-team, who weren't getting much exposure because the Fabulous Ones were so hot; two experienced heel tag-team specialists, a rookie manager, and a seasoned booker who was stuck in a then-dead spot, while Lawler was busy with other things. So, Bill Dundee took over booking Mid-South, put Dennis Condrey and Bobby Eaton together, who were both excellent tag-team wrestlers; but not great promos and gave them the rookie manager, Jim Cornette, who could talk a mile a minute and made them a heat magnet. Cornette annoyed you in under 2 minutes and Condrey and Eaton just demolished teams, with slick double-teams and solid work. Then, they came up against two pretty boys, who were fast and slick and moved like a well oiled machine. One could talk and sell like he was dying, while the other had the fiery comebacks and hit everything perfectly. It set the territory on fire, while it complimented the work on top from established draws Junkyard Dog, Hacksaw Jim Duggan, Ted Dibiase, and Matt Borne. So; a bunch of guys who were stuck in the middle in Memphis turned Mid-South into one of the hottest territories in the country, with matches and feuds that became legendary and carried over into other territories for the next decade. And both teams were the guys that Vince couldn't get (more or less, as I don't count that NWA invasion debacle, which was a rib on Cornette). They had talks with Vince but preferred working Southern style and continued to do so and draw big money.
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 25, 2019 14:51:49 GMT -5
Listen to Cornette's analysis of the other AEW events. They play to much to internet fans and not enough to a general audience, which they will need to do, with tv. Pre-show stuff is terrible, with sloppy workers, bad indie stuff, garbage matches (aka hardcore stuff, which they said they weren't going to do). They have some really good young talent that needs guidance and needs to learn to make things logical and make it matter. Too many good workers have to go off to the side so other, lesser talent can get their stuff in, which consists of moves with no psychology. The audience needs a story to follow. Corny thinks Cody is great and Dustin is at his best, ever. Jericho was good, but needs to get back into shape. The photo of him on the AEW site looks terrible, with some stupid fedora and long hair sticking down the back, looking like a wannabe rock star-crossed with a gangster. Daniels and Kazarian are great; but not working with great opponents, at these events. He is really high on Scorpio Sky, a young, muscled black wrestler who he says could be used as a superhero character and be massively over with kids and adults, to draw casual fans, ala Rey Mysterio Jr. Give him a slick outfit, develop him over time and he will be main event, per Cornette. MJF is the best heel in the business and needs to be working at the top. He likes Jungle Boy and Luchasaurus, as they have a gimmick that is working and fans get into it. They need to be showcased better. Omega and Young Bucks need to drop the bad comedy and learn psychology. He hates Omega for all of the stupid junk he did in the Japanese DDT promotion, which was filled with bad comedy, little kids wrestling (Omega did the job to an 6 or 8 year-old girl) and Omega wrestling a blow-up sex doll. Omega and Young Bucks have worked for New Japan; so they have the tools; but not the mindset to really be top stars in a national promotion. They are stuck in an indie mindset and won't listen to criticism. Too much time playing around.
He's big in Nyla Rogers, as a monster; but she is selling for women half her size, which is backward. Dr Britt Baker is another standout. Awesome Kong needs to be used better, as she has mainstream drawing power, with GLOW. The Lucha Bros. need to learn to integrate more with the American style, but are good when doing Lucha stuff.
The announcing needs to just be two-man, with Excalibur losing the mask. I agree, an announcer should not have a gimmick. Heel color commentary is old, so stick with presenting it as an athletic competition. Need to do more to capture the casual fan, especially with tv. Don't waste pre-show stuff on bad comedy and sloppy and dangerous matches. Don't use that period. Introduce your performers, give the audience a reason to care about them.
He praises the technical skill of the production people, excellent video packages, good look to the presentation of the shows. Booking needs to have more logic to it; fewer matches with so many guys involved (3 ays need to be special). Alex Marvez has no place as a commentator and he seems to know it.
Cornette was critical of the female ref at Double or Nothing but liked her work in subsequent shows.
Billy Gunn and Jerry Lyn are supposed to be "coaches." Not sure what that entails; bit, those are not guys I would be using as trainers and mentors. Gun has no history for it and Lynn never had a strong grasp on psychology. I'd be looking at guys like Dutch Mantell and Cornette, to teach them why to do things and to book things. Lance Storm would be perfect; but he is happy running his school, which turns out great performers. Same with Danny Davis, who sold off OVW, to Al Snow, who would be my other choice. Need more experienced guys, with a track record booking and developing talent. Kenny Omega has no business in an executive position. never drawn, does dumb things, never demonstrated a head for the business. Cody makes sense.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2019 17:44:59 GMT -5
That was the thing about the territories; you could go work elsewhere, when you had grown stale. Then, you could come back to a territory fresh. Also, for the young guys, you'd work 5-6 days a week, sometimes 2 shows a day (weekends), in front of regular crowds. You learned what worked and what didn't, you worked with experienced talent; and, if you were willing to learn and listen, would soak up a ton of knowledge. Then, you might move to a new territory and higher up the card. Bill Watts came to Memphis looking for some talent and too a B-Team tag-team, who weren't getting much exposure because the Fabulous Ones were so hot; two experienced heel tag-team specialists, a rookie manager, and a seasoned booker who was stuck in a then-dead spot, while Lawler was busy with other things. So, Bill Dundee took over booking Mid-South, put Dennis Condrey and Bobby Eaton together, who were both excellent tag-team wrestlers; but not great promos and gave them the rookie manager, Jim Cornette, who could talk a mile a minute and made them a heat magnet. Cornette annoyed you in under 2 minutes and Condrey and Eaton just demolished teams, with slick double-teams and solid work. Then, they came up against two pretty boys, who were fast and slick and moved like a well oiled machine. One could talk and sell like he was dying, while the other had the fiery comebacks and hit everything perfectly. It set the territory on fire, while it complimented the work on top from established draws Junkyard Dog, Hacksaw Jim Duggan, Ted Dibiase, and Matt Borne. So; a bunch of guys who were stuck in the middle in Memphis turned Mid-South into one of the hottest territories in the country, with matches and feuds that became legendary and carried over into other territories for the next decade. And both teams were the guys that Vince couldn't get (more or less, as I don't count that NWA invasion debacle, which was a rib on Cornette). They had talks with Vince but preferred working Southern style and continued to do so and draw big money. Gosh, imagine that happening today. The history you have posted about shows the importance of territories, wrestlers jumping ship, keeping fresh, etc.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2019 22:15:20 GMT -5
My Dream Women Match
Charlotte Flair vs Mickie James vs Gail Kim
My Dream Tag Team Match
Dudley Boyz vs The Legion of Doom
My Dream Survivors Series Match - WCW Style
Original Four Horsemen vs Scott Hall, Kevin Nash, Hulk Hogan, and Sean Waltman
My Dream Survivors Series Match - WWF/WWE Style
Ultimate Warrior, Randy Savage, and the Hart Foundation taking on Ric Flair, Mr. Perfect, and Money Incorporated
My Dream Single Match
Bruno Sammartino vs King Harley Race
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