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Post by wildfire2099 on Aug 29, 2024 6:54:46 GMT -5
clearly graded comparatively... stuff guys do now as a routine move used be be stuff you would do as a 'high flyer'. And it definitely has the opposite of recency bias. No Pac? Will Ospreay? There are a 1/2 dozen luchas that are better 1/2 flyers than Mistico that was passed through AEW the last few years.
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Post by commond on Aug 29, 2024 7:03:36 GMT -5
clearly graded comparatively... stuff guys do now as a routine move used be be stuff you would do as a 'high flyer'. And it definitely has the opposite of recency bias. No Pac? Will Ospreay? There are a 1/2 dozen luchas that are better 1/2 flyers than Mistico that was passed through AEW the last few years. I've seen everyone on the list wrestle, and I still maintain that it's a liberal use of the term high flyer. Mistico should definitely make the list, though, at least the '04-07 version. |
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Post by driver1980 on Aug 29, 2024 7:27:01 GMT -5
It has been a bit liberal.
I would have included Koko B. Ware. He had a believable aerial style which was easy to suspend disbelief for.
And I’d have included The Jumping Bomb Angels.
Disappointed that The Colossal Kongs aren’t on there…
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Post by Ricky Jackson on Aug 29, 2024 11:58:40 GMT -5
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Post by driver1980 on Aug 29, 2024 12:03:22 GMT -5
Don’t we already know all there is to know?
Wrestling sure loves redundancy. I’m sure we’ll get another Montreal Screwjob documentary soon…
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 29, 2024 13:05:32 GMT -5
Koko Ware used high spots, but he mixed it up a bit and it depended on the circumstances. In the WWF, he did more high spots; in Memphis, it depended on the match. When he teamed with Bobby Eaton, they mixed it up a bit. He would do a combination of high spots and brawling, with Bill Dundee. As part of the PYT Express, with Norvell Austin, it was more mat-based stuff and brawling, with a few high spots.
Ray Stevens wasn't what you would call a "high flyer." He did wild bumps, but that isn't the same thing. The closest he had to a regular high spot was the knee drop off the top turnbuckle, which counted as a high spot, in those days. Sonnenburg, from what I read, was similar, as he used a "billy goat butt" to hit opponents. It was livelier, but not quite the same as what Ricky Starr and Rocca did, or Carpentier's flips and dives.
I'm happy to see Lanny Poffo in there as he really could do some amazing stuff, both for his size and for the time. He did flying head scissor takeovers, moonsaults, swan dives, flying body presses and stuff like victory rolls, sunset flips, and rolling reverse cradles in his matches. His WWF matches were a bit different, in general, as they were more punch-kick-slam, in keeping with the New York style of broader moves. Once in a while he got to pull a few out, more early on, when he was being introduced. There was a video on Youtube, which I haven't been able to find again, which featured an episode of the ICW tv show, with the communications between the cameramen and the director, in the booth. The main event match is a 6-man tag, with Lanny Poffo, Big Boy Williams and, I think, Ronnie Garvin. I can't remember the other team, except one was a masked wrestler, called the Tennessee Stud (a rib on Ron Fuller, as this was soon after the All-Star breakaway, with Roop, Garvin & Orton Jr), who someone on the microphone feed identifies as Steve Cooper, who was Randy Savage's manager, at the time (and a wrestler, later a ref). The match gets enthusiastic comments from the cameramen and when Lanny pulls out a flying headscissor, the director calls out to mark that for playback and they use it for the recap highlight, at the end of the match. This is the old school headscissor, not the usual one you saw in the 80s, where the flyer leaps up and scissors the head, but hangs on in a pose, for a moment, before taking the opponent over, where they are facing the opponent. It was the older version, where you threw your opponent into the ropes and leapt up and catch them around the head and neck with the scissor, with your body pointed in the other direction and you then twist downward, in a spiral and flip them headfirst.
The ICW match was faster and the head scissor was a thing of beauty, even compared to that WWF clip.
I'd also say that leaving Chavo Guerrero Sr off that list is a crime. Eddie was a better all-around flyer and wrestler; but, Chavo defined a lot of that, in the 70s. There just aren't a lot of tapes of his matches circulating, apart from stuff where he teams with Hector and Mondo, in Florida, Mid-South and the AWA. Very little of Los Angeles or his All-Japan matches. He was doing backflips off the top rope and landing in the ring and all kinds of stuff before guys like Tiger Mask. He does a bit of that in the Henry Winkler film, The One and Only....
Any list like that is going to be subjective, under the best of circumstances and likely limited to those with footage available or stories told. I'd include El Bracero on a Top 100 list; but most wouldn't have seen him, since he mainly worked Detroit, Indianapolis, for the Poffos, the Funks and some other spots; but, never nationally. You could say the same about dozens of luchadors.
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Post by driver1980 on Aug 29, 2024 14:39:55 GMT -5
I am curious how the writer has seen enough footage of Gus Sonnenberg to be able to include him on a list, although maybe he included him due to having read up on him.
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Post by dbutler69 on Aug 29, 2024 15:27:49 GMT -5
I recently watched King of the Ring 1995
Vince McMahon and Dok Hendrix (Michael Hayes) on commentary. From Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Spoiler alert – the booking (and the wrestling) on this PPV is awful. However, the bad booking started even before the tournament, with the KOTR qualifying matches. The result is the weakest field imaginable for this tournament. They had Owen Hart and the British Bulldog fight to a time limit draw, eliminating both men (rather than just have them wrestle again, as they’ve done in years past when this has happened) and both of those guys are much better than most of the clowns (no, luckily Doink didn’t qualify) who are actually in the tournament. Heck, I'd rather see Henry O. Godwin (the evil pig farmer, Jean-Pierre Lafitte (the evil pirate. AKA Jacques Rougeau), or even Adam Bomb, than the majority of the wrestlers in this tournament! So, here are some of the guys who will NOT wrestle at this PPV: Owen Hart, the British Bulldog, Lex Luger, Jeff Jarrett, Razor Ramon, the 1-2-3 Kid, and Hakushi. Plus, Diesel will not defend his WWF title but will wrestle in a tag team match. Meanwhile, we get such wrestling immortals as the Roadie (with ONE single match under his belt), Savio Vega (AKA Kang, who is a recent addition to the roster so most people don’t even know who he is), and Kama. Okay, Razor had a legit injury, and I THINK the 1-2-3 Kid might have as well, plus Diesel is recovering from a legit injury so they put him in a tag match to protect him, but how can you not have Owen Hart, the defending champ, and best worker (aside from Shawn Michaels) in the potential KOTR field, in this tournament? Mind blowing stupidity by the WWF here. It’s a wonder that anyone bought this PPV. I'll be glad when 1995 is over in my WWF/WCW viewing. First we have a King of the Ring Qualifying Match: IRS w/ Ted Dibiase vs. Savio Vega w/ Razor Ramon
Oh boy, a bonus match, what a treat. With Razor not medically cleared for the tournament, this is a qualifying match added at the last minutes. Vega wins with a spinning heel kick, which was sort of his finisher. This was an okay match. Nothing special, but certainly not bad at all. Rather basic. One thing really annoyed me, though. When IRS was sent out of the ring, and Hendrix says he needs to bring him back in because “you can’t beat him outside the ring”. Yes, you can!!! This is a KOTR qualifying match. A countout is as good as a pin, you moron! It’s one of my pet peeves about wrestling announcers, when they say that, because it’s NOT TRUE except for in matches where a championship belt is at stake. Anyway, next up is the first King of the Ring Quarterfinal Match: Savio Vega w/ Razor Ramon vs. Yokozuna w/ Jim Cornette and Mr. Fuji
Savio has to go again already. Savio wins when Yoko is run into a ringpost outside the ring and is counted out. See, you can beat him outside the ring! Anyway, this was not a good match at all. Yoko wasn’t good for much at this point in his career and Savio Vega is certainly not the guy to carry him to something decent. Next is another King of the Ring Quarterfinals match: The Roadie (w/Jeff Jarrett) vs. Bob “Spark Plugg” Holly
Roadie wins (!) when Holly comes off the top rope but runs into Roadie’s boot and Roadie covers for the pin, even though Holly’s shoulder was clearly up. Other than the slightly botched finish (I’m not sure what happened there) this was a decent match. Mostly because of Holly, who I think is pretty good (too bad he’s not a member of the Kliq) though Roadie did a good job of bumping. Next quarterfinal match is Kama (w/ Ted DiBiase) vs. Shawn Michaels
We get a time limit draw here. Sigh. This was a pretty good match, mostly due to Michaels, but it seemed to be wrestled at a pace without much urgency (considering the time limit) until the last couple of minutes. So, we best and also most popular wrestler in the entire tournament is gone after just the first round. Of course, they did this so that Mabel could get more rest before the final. This is the problem with booking big fat guys to reach the final – you have to do these BS time limit draws to rest them. Same thing happened in 1993 with Bam Bam Bigelow. They could have done the brackets differently, and maybe had the Roadie-Holly match be the one ending in a time limit draw, then have Shawn (or Undertaker)in the other half of the draw so that he could face Mabel in the finals. I guess that would have made too much sense, though. Plus the paying fans get screwed out of one match. Last quarterfinal match is Mabel (w/ Mo) vs. The Undertaker (w/ Paul Bearer)
Taker performs the jumping clothesline and a chokeslam, then covers for the pin. Unfortunately, Kama arrives and kicks Taker in the head whilst the ref is distracted. Mabel follows that with a leg drop and gets the win. This was a terrible match. ‘nuff said. So now, the other wrestler in this tournament that people actually care about, the Undertaker, is ALSO gone in the first round! This is WCW level stupidity. Next is our first, and only, semifinal match: Savio Vega (w/ Razor Ramon) vs. The Roadie (w/ Jeff Jarrett)
Are you kidding me? Roadie vs. Savio Vega in a King of the Ring SEMIFINAL?! Wow. Anyway, Roadie runs into Jarrett on the apron and Vega rolls him up for the win. A boring match. Not terrible, but not good either. By the way, the Philly crowd started out hot for this show, but at this point the WWF has lost the crowd, as they have gotten quieter as this PPV has progressed, and were fairly dead for this one. I can’t blame them at all, after this garbage. Also, some people started an “ECW” chant. Next we have the Kiss My Foot Match: Bret Hart vs. Jerry Lawler
It’s always good to see Bret Hart and all that, but this feud has gotten out of hand. I don’t think I need to explain the idea behind this match. We’ve also had to endure a lot of bad foot jokes and some “training” videos showing how Lawler is making his feet disgusting on the weekly shows leading up to this. Anyway, Bret wins after knocking around Lawler throughout most of the match, when Hakushi’s interference backfires, then Bret has Lawler kiss his foot, per the rules of the match, really shoving his toes into Lawler’s mouth. Disgusting. Then, as promised, he made Lawler kiss HIS OWN foot, shoving Lawler’s foot into his own mouth. I have to say, I am very impressed that Lawler was flexible enough to swallow his own foot! This was a pretty good match. BY no means a great match, and certainly not one of Bret Hart’s better matches, but by the low standards of this PPV, it was pretty good, and it did wake up the crowd a little bit. You might think (and hope) that this was the blowoff for this feud, but I believe it does continue Oh well. KOTR Finals: Mabel (w/ Mo) vs. Savio Vega (w/ Razor Ramon)
Mabel wins with a front falling slam. This was terrible. One of the worst PPV matches ever. Slow, boring, and just not good at all. What a disaster. We get another “ECW” chant. Way to get the crowd to turn on you, WWF! That was about the only noise the crowd made for this match, though, as they couldn’t have cared less. Who can blame them? For our feature match, we get WWF Champion Diesel and Bam Bam Bigelow vs. Tatanka and Sycho Sid w/ Ted Dibiase
The good guys win when Sid walks out on his teammate (with fans throwing trash at him) after Diesel had pulled Tatanka up after a two count and motioned for Sid to come in, so then Diesel hitting an elbow drop on Tatanka for the pin. Terrible match with a garbage finish. And I fail to see the logic in making Sid look like a complete coward when you are grooming him for a title shot at the next PPV in a month. This makes no sense and again, I will say that it’s WCW level stupidity. Mabel and Mo get garbage thrown on them during the crowning ceremony, and Mo took waaay too long to read the proclamation. This is the worst WWF PPV I’ve seen up to this point in time. The quality of the wrestling was bad and nothing about the booking (other than Hart-Lawler) made any sense. The Michaels match, the Hart match, and maybe the Holly match were all decent to pretty good, but everything else was awful and not even close to PPV quality. The semifinal and final were truly awful. Some other general notes. I saw Vlad the superfan (as usual) and he was actually wearing a tee shirt instead of a tank top. First time I’ve seen that, I think. We get another freaking ref bump! I’m so sick of this happening at every single PPV. Also, nobody ever hooks the leg. Someone like Gorilla Monsoon might point this out on commentary, and it is rather stupid, but I read that they are instructed not to hook the leg unless it’s the actual final pinfall. This is stupid on several levels. First, it makes the wrestlers look stupid. Plus, once the fans catch on, it makes the matches more predicable, as you know this isn’t the end of the match because he’s not hooking the leg. Plus people might catch on that it’s all a work. They also kept showing the Spanish language commentators during this PPV, even doing a split screen at one point. I have no idea why. WWF is doing a lot of really stupid things around this time. I also hate the time limit draws. I am in agreement with all of that. You and I have discussed predictable tournament booking before. Gee, I wonder who’s gonna win out of IRS and Savio Vega, eh? I mean, we know the WWF aren’t gonna have IRS qualify and go on to face Yokozuna. Their aversion to heel vs. heel bouts at these tournaments is boringly predictable. So, really, IRS/Savio Vega was an utterly pointless match. The tournament was horribly booked. Shawn Michaels vs. Kama was probably the best bout (I was sure Michaels would win the tournament). It gets back to what you and I have discussed before: predictability. Well, we’re not gonna see Kama win it, they’re not gonna do Kama vs. Mabel. And in the quarterfinals, we sort of know that Undertaker is not gonna win it because they’re not gonna go with Michaels vs. Undertaker. These KOTR tournaments were just routine and unsurprising. Once the first quarterfinal bout ends, you can predict with accuracy how it’s gonna go. I mean, yes, Savio Vega was gonna beat the Roadie because they’re not gonna do Roadie vs. Mabel. I’m not saying there can’t be a bit of predictability. But I mean, the WWF knew how to do it, e.g. KOTR ‘91 had IRS vs. Berzerker, and then IRS vs. Jerry Sags in the semi-finals. 1993 gave us Bret vs. Mr Perfect, so a good babyface vs. babyface bout. I am certain every fan on the planet knew how this tournament was going once the first quarterfinal match had ended. If you ask me, Shawn winning the KOTR, by wrestling 3 strong opponents, would have been perfect, e.g. Shawn versus, say, Davey Boy Smith in the semi-finals, and then perhaps against Owen Hart in the final. This PPV was devoid of star power. Luger, Bulldog, Owen and others should have been on the card. The main event was worthless and uninteresting. As for Bret vs. Lawler, they seemed to resurrect that feud often. And kiss my foot? Really? Did Quentin Tarantino book this match? I mean, yes, I do remember Lawler doing things like walking barefoot in horse manure and making his feet as dirty as possible - and it was probably slightly amusing. But in a wrestling world where most gimmick matches are reused time and time again, I don’t think this one ever was on WWF soil again (I’m sure an independent promotion has probably done it). That even the WWF didn’t revisit the Kiss my Foot concept says it all, eh? Let’s hope that stays dead and buried, we don’t want CM Punk and Drew McIntyre, or Rhea Ripley and Liv Morgan, doing it. Hell, even Vince Russo didn’t revisit that gimmick as far as I know, and we know how immature and ridiculous he is. (Is there another gimmick that has only been used once by the WWF? There must be. Blindfold match, perhaps?) Horrible PPV. I’d love to interview the people who booked this (I know Vince always had the final say, but other people might have been in the “weeds” of the booking) I agree that Shawn Michaels should have won this tournament, and I too thought he would. And yeah, if Vince Russo didn't steal that gimmick then it must be bad! |
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Post by dbutler69 on Aug 29, 2024 15:30:40 GMT -5
God rest his soul. I did enjoy his time in wrestling, particularly 1996-97. And let me put my kayfabe head on for a moment: Hogan had NO RIGHT to whine during the 1992 Royal Rumble. It was every man for himself, and Sid was entitled to eliminate Hogan from behind, just as Hogan had done to numerous allies in 1989, 1990 and 1991. Every man for himself, Hogan! Was Sid supposed to graciously step aside? Kayfabe aside, they should have booked that differently because Hogan came across as a sore loser. Perhaps my favourite Sid match is the one he had with Shawn Michaels at the 1997 Royal Rumble. Amen on the 1992 Royal Rumble! Are we supposed sympathize with that whiner Hulk Hogan?! Tough not to hate the guy after that. |
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Post by Ricky Jackson on Aug 29, 2024 15:58:58 GMT -5
I am curious how the writer has seen enough footage of Gus Sonnenberg to be able to include him on a list, although maybe he included him due to having read up on him. I've watched a bit of Sonnenberg footage in the last year. I wouldn't call him a "high flyer", but he was a pretty good pro wrestler |
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 29, 2024 16:28:03 GMT -5
I am curious how the writer has seen enough footage of Gus Sonnenberg to be able to include him on a list, although maybe he included him due to having read up on him. You'd be amazed at how much old fight film footage exists of wrestling from the Depression and the 40s....even a little before. Same for boxing. A lot of the big fights were filmed, for newsreels and movie exhibitions, in those days before television. Radio could only convey so much. Here is footage of a match between Gorgeous George and Woody Strode, the athlete-turned actor, who was featured in Spartacus, Sgt Rutledge, The Professionals, and Tarzan's Three Challenges (and at least one other Tarzan film). Strode played professional football (one of the first African-Americans to do so) and then dabbled in pro wrestling in the late 40s and early 50s, before acting took over. |
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 29, 2024 16:35:32 GMT -5
I am curious how the writer has seen enough footage of Gus Sonnenberg to be able to include him on a list, although maybe he included him due to having read up on him. I've watched a bit of Sonnenberg footage in the last year. I wouldn't call him a "high flyer", but he was a pretty good pro wrestler You'd hope so, as National Wrestling Association World Champion, defeating Ed "Strangler" Lewis (also recognized in the Boston AWA lineage, as the NWA stripped recognition). He had also played for the fledgling NF, playing for the Buffalo All-Americans, Columbus Tigers, Detroit Panthers and Providence Steamrollers. |
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Post by driver1980 on Aug 29, 2024 16:39:12 GMT -5
I am curious how the writer has seen enough footage of Gus Sonnenberg to be able to include him on a list, although maybe he included him due to having read up on him. You'd be amazed at how much old fight film footage exists of wrestling from the Depression and the 40s....even a little before. Same for boxing. A lot of the big fights were filmed, for newsreels and movie exhibitions, in those days before television. Radio could only convey so much. Here is footage of a match between Gorgeous George and Woody Strode, the athlete-turned actor, who was featured in Spartacus, Sgt Rutledge, The Professionals, and Tarzan's Three Challenges (and at least one other Tarzan film). Strode played professional football (one of the first African-Americans to do so) and then dabbled in pro wrestling in the late 40s and early 50s, before acting took over. Thanks. And to Ricky Jackson, too. I’ll consider YouTube when I want to search for old footage. Just a shame no-one can seem to find the match Hulk Hogan claims to have had at Wembley in front of 80,000 fans. That footage is lost, I suppose. Unless Hogan is lying, which he’d never do… |
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Post by Ricky Jackson on Aug 29, 2024 18:36:06 GMT -5
I've watched a bit of Sonnenberg footage in the last year. I wouldn't call him a "high flyer", but he was a pretty good pro wrestler You'd hope so, as National Wrestling Association World Champion, defeating Ed "Strangler" Lewis (also recognized in the Boston AWA lineage, as the NWA stripped recognition). He had also played for the fledgling NF, playing for the Buffalo All-Americans, Columbus Tigers, Detroit Panthers and Providence Steamrollers. Well, promoters weren't above putting a World title on someone with questionable wrestling skills, like Wayne Munn, the original football star turned wrestler, or later Danno O'Mahony, if it meant big box office. Both had the title shot off them, so of course it was risky. Sonnenberg ranks among the best of the pro football players turned wrestlers |
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 29, 2024 19:36:33 GMT -5
Villano V, Ray Mendoz Jr, of the famous Los Villanos, has passed away at age 62.....  He was actually the next youngest of the Villanos, as Villano IV (Thomas) finished school quicker and was allowed to train for wrestling, earlier. His father was legendary luchador Ray Mendoza, perennial light heavyweight champion of the UWA, in Naucalpan, the chief rival of EMLL/CMLL, through the 70s and 80s. All 5 sons followed him into wrestling, as the masked Villanos, with Jose de Jesus wrestling as Villano I, in a team with older brother Alfredo, as Villano II and later joined by younger brother, Arturo, as Villano III. Villano III wrestled often as a single, holding the UWA World Light Heavyweight Championship, as well as the WWF Light Heavyweight Championship (created for use in Mexico, as the WWF had a talent agreement with the UWA), and also wrestled extensively in Japan, against Tiger Mask.  Thomas and Ray Jr, as the youngest, began teaming as Villano IV and V, in the UWA, CMLL, AAA, IWRG and WWA, as well as with their brothers, particularly in a rivalry with Los Brazos (Brazo De Plata, Brazo de Oro and El Brazo). They would go on to wrestle for WCW, during the Monday Night Wars, as part of the lucha contingent, usually as a heel tag team, battling other luchadors or jobbing to the Americans. Villano II died in 1989 and Villano I in 2001. Villano III passed away in 2018. Thomas, Villano IV, is the last surviving brother. Their father passed away in 2003. The family also had three daughters. Their mother, Lupita, died in 1986. The Villanos were a great tag team, in any combination and Villano III was a tremendous singles wrestler. After retiring, Ray Mendoza worked as a special referee, for big matches and as a trainer, in the UWA school, before the promotion closed its doors. In 1988, he became the head commissioner of the Mexico City Box y Lucha Commission, which oversaw the licensing of wrestlers and promoters. The commission was the most powerful entity in lucha libre, enforcing rules related to mask vs match and mask vs hair matches and the use of ring names and masks, to prevent copycats (which is while the original La Parka had to change his name to LA Park, when he left AAA) and why Rey Mysterio Jr's mask loss in WCW was enforced when he wrestled again, in Mexico, after WCW's demise. |
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