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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2019 3:48:27 GMT -5
AEW Dynamite is really TNA Impact Lite. Really.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2019 6:11:18 GMT -5
I find it hard to muster up enthusiasm to watch too much wrestling now, especially as the WWF Network has so much content.
Back in the day, I watched all of the WWF's syndicated shows, WCW Worldwide and occasional ECW TV (no licensee in the UK, so reliant on tape traders). And during the "Monday Night Wars", I watched the WWF's two main shows and WCW's two main shows. And kept in touch with the likes of WCW Saturday Night.
I did watch TNA for a while, but some of it seemed WCW-lite. There were good matches. I like the time when Christian was in the main events. But it felt like it wasn't for me. I began watching highlight shows. I can only speak about my own social circle, but in the last 10-15 years, very few, if any, have spoken about TNA. I might get something like, "Oh, I watched it once."
I will check in on AEW and other promotions, but less is more. Although they would never willingly lose money, now more than ever, in an ideal world, I wish the WWF would have fewer PPVs a year. I miss the days of four PPVs a year, where each one felt special - and feuds developed over a period of months. A good example of this for me is Legion of Doom VS Nasty Boys. Nasty Boys practically steal the titles from the Hart Foundation at WrestleMania VII, but we had all summer to anticipate an LOD/Nasty Boys feud. True, they had some house show matches during the summer (ending inconclusively), but those of us following the televised stuff had to wait five months to see the Nasty Boys dethroned.
If done today, LOD would have challenged the Nasty Boys at the post-WM PPV - and there'd have not been months of build up.
I do wish things hadn't changed at times. I didn't mind Nitro being created, but Thunder was unnecessary in retrospect - and it led to the WWF firing back with SmackDown.
And did anyone ever really wish to watch the likes of Velocity?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2019 14:11:35 GMT -5
Sting was nearly 56 years old at Wrestlemania 31 when he battled Triple H; my question is their an age limit on any wrestler who wants perform until he 55 or older? ... I'm thinking of that today.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2019 14:32:12 GMT -5
If you mean is there a legal age limit, I don't think so. Wasn't Abdullah the Butcher wrestling into his 70s? How old is he now? Is he still active or semi-active?
There are rumours of a Hogan/Vince McMahon match at the next WrestleMania. Hogan would be 66 at that event; Vince would be 74. (Personally, and it's a topic for another time, I think, if Hogan has one more match in him, it should be with Cena, a real "passing of the torch" scenario).
I wonder, do real sports have age limits?
It's a good question. Ric Flair is 70, but he could wrestle again, I'm sure.
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Post by codystarbuck on Oct 31, 2019 14:41:06 GMT -5
Sting was nearly 56 years old at Wrestlemania 31 when he battled Triple H; my question is their an age limit on any wrestler who wants perform until he 55 or older? ... I'm thinking of that today. Lawler still occasionally wrestles and he's in his 60s. Flair is 70 an was still wrestling in his 60s. Lou Thesz wrestled his last match at age 74. It really depends on the guy. Thesz could go, up through his 60, then was mostly just making appearances, before the match with Masahiro Chono. In his book, he said his hip gave out and he fell into a heap and that was it. Now, the book was somewhat kayfabed, so that might have been a planned spot. However, old wrestlers usually had joint issues, in the days before everyone was destroying their bodies with high spots, concussions, steroids and recreational drugs & alcohol. Flair was still going well in his 60s; but, as we see, is now paying the price of his lifestyle (especially the booze). Hogan was having issues by WCW and wasn't doing much bumping in his matches. He made an effort for his WWE return and di F-all in TNA; but, his knees are shot and his back required surgery. For the generation that came in before the 80s, most were still competitive through their 50s, depending on how well they saved their money. Their bodies were fine, other than maybe knees and hips, and they didn't do stupid things. As Cornette has talked about, they knew they only had so many bumps in their body and they used them sparingly, for big shows. They also weren't messing up their bodies with chemicals (other than alcohol). Move into the 80s, when steroid use becomes a thing and now you have guys dying by their mid-40s, of heart attacks. Cocaine is a big deal, alcohol, ant-depressants and sleep aids. Guys of that generation are dying or killing themselves when the previous generation were at their peak, settling into the veteran role. It accelerated in the 90s, when everyone is on juice, using pils and booze, and taking stupid bumps every night or worse, with garbage wrestling. In Sting's case, I think he was fine; but, he did have to be hospitalized after the match. I think he tried to do too much, for his age. Steamboat had a similar problem with his match against Jericho. They tried to up the ante to hang with younger guys or crowd expectations and their bodies weren't up to it. The problem you have is that, with Vince going to commissions and saying it's a work and getting deregulated, no one is overseeing what's happening to them, apart from the WWE's "Wellness Policy," which has very fluid enforcement. CM Punk talked about how he was pressured to wrestle while he was injured and had a major infection. It's part of why he walked. However, the commissions did nothing to really protect the wrestlers. They collected their fees, checked blood pressure before matches, and had a commission doctor at ringside (the one who took the blood pressure). That was it. Now, the health department in Indiana shut down an Ian Rotten show because of hepatitis, recently. Still, no one is looking out for the boys,except themselves and they are miserable at it. Sting I understand, he wanted one go at a Wrestlemania, after being the WCW franchise player. I still think he was better off going with Vince than TNA; but, I understand why he sat out the remainder of his WCW contract. It was more than Vince would pay and he would have had to take a py off, like DDP did, to join (and DDP was buried) and why do that, with a family? After? I don't know. He and Flair were the two guys who could have meant something to the Invasion angle, though Vince never wanted the WCW contingent to look competitive.
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Post by codystarbuck on Oct 31, 2019 14:46:04 GMT -5
If you mean is there a legal age limit, I don't think so. Wasn't Abdullah the Butcher wrestling into his 70s? How old is he now? Is he still active or semi-active? There are rumours of a Hogan/Vince McMahon match at the next WrestleMania. Hogan would be 66 at that event; Vince would be 74. (Personally, and it's a topic for another time, I think, if Hogan has one more match in him, it should be with Cena, a real "passing of the torch" scenario). I wonder, do real sports have age limits? It's a good question. Ric Flair is 70, but he could wrestle again, I'm sure. Abby hasn't wrestled for quite a while and needs assistance to get around. He's also hiding from a lawsuit judgement against him, brought by Devon Nicholson, aka Hannibal (who posts shoot interviews on Youtube and runs Greater North Wrestling). Flair should not set foot in the ring again.... He's nearly died, and has had further health issues. His body is done. A commentary role, a manager role, authority figure....fine. No more wrestling; for the love of Thesz, please, Ric!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2019 14:59:06 GMT -5
On Vince not wanting to make the WCW 'invaders' look competitive: I am still angry about that!
I mean, didn't DDP stalk the Undertaker's wife for fame? WTF? What kind of storyline is that? WCW fans would have been watching WWF (I was). Why would it make sense for DDP, whose profile had risen in WCW, to seek fame?
I know the WWF couldn't acquire the likes of Goldberg, Scott Steiner, Hulk Hogan and others immediately due to them sitting out their Turner contracts (nice work if you can get it!). But he hired them eventually, anyway. If he had bought them out, and they'd accepted, well the invasion storyline could have been so different. I hated that the WCW invasion storyline seemed to revolve around Shane and Stephanie McMahon, two people who hadn't been in WCW. What a crappy storyline/feud it was.
Regarding the WWF being deregulated, here's a related issue: how on earth has the federal government let wrestling promotions get away with the "independent contractor" thing for so long? How are they independent contractors? To me, an independent contractor (during, say, the Attitude Era) could have gone to Vince and said, "You're not using me at WrestleMania on Sunday, so I called WCW - and they're gonna let me wrestle on their show." How can an 'independent contractor' be subject to a 90-day no compete clause? Or have their dress code dictated? Never made sense to me.
And I am an independent contractor in a sense. True, cab drivers in the UK work for a brand (taxis are the world-renowned black cabs, minicabs/private hire vehicles have company names or are Uber/Ola/Lyft). But we're independent contractors. I sort out my own taxes. I can not take a fare if I wish, e.g. a drunken fool wants to travel minutes after vomiting on the streets. I wouldn't be an independent contractor if a company said, "You work for our cab company from 9am to 5pm. You take the jobs we give you and no-one can hail you."
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Post by codystarbuck on Oct 31, 2019 15:22:40 GMT -5
On Vince not wanting to make the WCW 'invaders' look competitive: I am still angry about that! I mean, didn't DDP stalk the Undertaker's wife for fame? WTF? What kind of storyline is that? WCW fans would have been watching WWF (I was). Why would it make sense for DDP, whose profile had risen in WCW, to seek fame? I know the WWF couldn't acquire the likes of Goldberg, Scott Steiner, Hulk Hogan and others immediately due to them sitting out their Turner contracts (nice work if you can get it!). But he hired them eventually, anyway. If he had bought them out, and they'd accepted, well the invasion storyline could have been so different. I hated that the WCW invasion storyline seemed to revolve around Shane and Stephanie McMahon, two people who hadn't been in WCW. What a crappy storyline/feud it was. Regarding the WWF being deregulated, here's a related issue: how on earth has the federal government let wrestling promotions get away with the "independent contractor" thing for so long? How are they independent contractors? To me, an independent contractor (during, say, the Attitude Era) could have gone to Vince and said, "You're not using me at WrestleMania on Sunday, so I called WCW - and they're gonna let me wrestle on their show." How can an 'independent contractor' be subject to a 90-day no compete clause? Or have their dress code dictated? Never made sense to me. And I am an independent contractor in a sense. True, cab drivers in the UK work for a brand (taxis are the world-renowned black cabs, minicabs/private hire vehicles have company names or are Uber/Ola/Lyft). But we're independent contractors. I sort out my own taxes. I can not take a fare if I wish, e.g. a drunken fool wants to travel minutes after vomiting on the streets. I wouldn't be an independent contractor if a company said, "You work for our cab company from 9am to 5pm. You take the jobs we give you and no-one can hail you." What was worse is that DDP jobbed to the wife, WHO HAD NEVER WRESTLED A SINGLE MATCH IN HER LIFE!!!! Vince just couldn't allow the WWE to look weak and used it to bury the competition completely and rub it in the noses of the fans. It was stupid and a waste of money and led to a decline in the ratings. Heyman and the ECW guys salvaged a piece of things, before it turned into the McMahon Family Circus. Vince let's his ego get in the way of good business far too often, which leads to his down periods and then he wakes back up and listens to people. The independent contractor thing is allowed because no wrestler has fought it in court. Lesnar beat the no compete clause when he went to Japan and UFC; but, no one has had the guts (or the cash) to fight the independent contractor clause in court. It probably wouldn't stand, once a decision came down; but, the WWE would drag it out until the other side was hemorrhaging money. If they were truly independent contractors, then they could not be signed toe xclusive deals ad would be free to work for whoever, as the indie guys do. The wrestlers are responsible for their own taxes and health insurance, with the WWE covering air travel to venues (though not rental cars and hotels). They provide catering at events, but not food per diem while touring. Not sure about medical bills in the case of ring injuries as that would probably fall under workman's compensation laws, though independent contractors throws a wrinkle into that. Also, this federal government included Vince's wife, until recently and is "run" by his bestest buddy, the Orange Lunatic (for a short while longer). At least wrestlers in the UK and Canada have the NHS to fall back on.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2019 15:59:18 GMT -5
Although wrestling is neither fish nor fowl, I always thought Freddy VS Jason was a good template for any battle between titans, whether wrestling, sci-fi, etc. Both characters looked strong in that film. Freddy was allowed to beat the crap out of Jason for some of the film. Jason got to beat the crap out of Freddy for some of the film. Both looked strong, and it led to that final battle. True, the movie came out 2 years after the WCW/ECW crapfest invasion storyline, but that's how McMahon should have done it.
At the time, I even argued that if it had been done properly, there might have been mileage in bringing the nWo in as "mercenaries for hire", battling both WCW and WWF guys. WWF VS WCW vs nWo might have had 8-12 months of mileage. Would it have worked? It's entirely hypothetical, but I would have preferred that. By the time the nWo did join the WWF (February 2002, I believe), I just didn't care about the nWo as a concept anymore.
On "independent contractor status", you're right. I just would have thought the federal government might have stepped in (pre-Trump at least) of their own volition without the need for a court case. I doubt I'd have lasted long as a wrestler. I'd have been too cheeky, e.g. I'd have told John Laurinaitis where to stick his dress code. Interestingly, here in the UK, some taxi drivers (not my city) are battling with the council who want to impose a dress code on them, but taxi drivers, who are always up for a fight against bureaucracy, are using the "self-employed" status (we don't really use the term "independent contractor" here) to rally against that. How can the council tell us, in any city, what to wear when we are self-employed?
One could apply it to any profession. A plumber would not be an independent contractor if a millionaire was giving him numerous jobs, but saying, "Oh, but I don't want you working on this person's house - and I want you available on Sundays 3-4 times a month." No, he'd be an employee.
Wrestlers do protect their spots, and I doubt there will ever be a wrestling union, but it'd be fun if, at some point, these so-called 'independent contractors' had tried to get work with WCW or whomever. If they weren't being used at a WWF PPV, why wouldn't these 'independent contractors' be free to wrestle a match for WCW or ECW for one night?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2019 16:33:07 GMT -5
Interesting reading material ... I may have to re-read this a couple of times and come back to you.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2019 17:23:36 GMT -5
Mae Young 76 Years OldShe and Fabulous Moolah were a tag team battling Ivory (She was the WWE Women Champion) and they got together a handicap Bra and Panties match that's unbelievable.
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Post by codystarbuck on Oct 31, 2019 18:21:06 GMT -5
Although wrestling is neither fish nor fowl, I always thought Freddy VS Jason was a good template for any battle between titans, whether wrestling, sci-fi, etc. Both characters looked strong in that film. Freddy was allowed to beat the crap out of Jason for some of the film. Jason got to beat the crap out of Freddy for some of the film. Both looked strong, and it led to that final battle. True, the movie came out 2 years after the WCW/ECW crapfest invasion storyline, but that's how McMahon should have done it. At the time, I even argued that if it had been done properly, there might have been mileage in bringing the nWo in as "mercenaries for hire", battling both WCW and WWF guys. WWF VS WCW vs nWo might have had 8-12 months of mileage. Would it have worked? It's entirely hypothetical, but I would have preferred that. By the time the nWo did join the WWF (February 2002, I believe), I just didn't care about the nWo as a concept anymore. On "independent contractor status", you're right. I just would have thought the federal government might have stepped in (pre-Trump at least) of their own volition without the need for a court case. I doubt I'd have lasted long as a wrestler. I'd have been too cheeky, e.g. I'd have told John Laurinaitis where to stick his dress code. Interestingly, here in the UK, some taxi drivers (not my city) are battling with the council who want to impose a dress code on them, but taxi drivers, who are always up for a fight against bureaucracy, are using the "self-employed" status (we don't really use the term "independent contractor" here) to rally against that. How can the council tell us, in any city, what to wear when we are self-employed? One could apply it to any profession. A plumber would not be an independent contractor if a millionaire was giving him numerous jobs, but saying, "Oh, but I don't want you working on this person's house - and I want you available on Sundays 3-4 times a month." No, he'd be an employee. Wrestlers do protect their spots, and I doubt there will ever be a wrestling union, but it'd be fun if, at some point, these so-called 'independent contractors' had tried to get work with WCW or whomever. If they weren't being used at a WWF PPV, why wouldn't these 'independent contractors' be free to wrestle a match for WCW or ECW for one night? The Federal government doesn't consider it big enough to worry about (no votes in it) and there aren't lawsuits being brought. The US government has a very long history of bending to the will of big business. Here, it's a minor industry that no one cares about. At the indie end of things, they aren't making enough money for it to be an issue and they aren't under contract. They are actual independent contractors. In the big companies, they are just happy to have the higher pay and be stars. Wrestlers have never been particularly good business people, as a group (some individuals have been and are, but not the mass). When you got guys willing to have lightbulbs smashed over them and be dumped in barbed wire just waiting to take a spot, not many are willing to stand up. Look at CM Punk. People acted like he was in the wrong for walking away. Right now, Cody and the rest of the AEW guys are like the Image partners, when they left Marvel, taking charge of their own destiny. The main difference is they have a money mark funding them, rather than it being their own money on the line, like at All In (which had help from Ring of Honor and the NWA). I have no idea what their contracts are like, other than inflated for the marquee value of a lot of the performers, from some of the thing floating around. I would like to see groups like AEW bring more opportunity, control and fair compensation; but, the set up and what I have seen of their tv gives me WCW feelings. Hopefully, it's just growing pains and they will sort their issues and grow.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2019 18:29:30 GMT -5
On a wrestling forum I was a member of years ago, there were still people who believed there'd be a wrestling union one day. Never say never, but I don't see it. I think there's more chance of the Yeti showing up in my cab!
I have been in unions. It's all about collective bargaining. And unity. I don't see how a wrestling union would see every wrestler joining it.
Example: suppose there'd been a wrestling union in the 80s, fighting for better rights, more spotlight, etc. Would Hulk Hogan have joined it? I doubt it. I like Hogan, but in an old magazine interview, the late Dynamite Kid said that Hogan didn't care if you earned pennies in your match as long as he got his big bucks.
What if there'd been a union in modern times? Would the likes of Triple H have joined it? What incentive is there for big wrestlers to join? Why would they give up their spot to join a union?
It's different from some professions. One union I was in was trying to get better pay, pensions and rights for all of us. A wrestling union would no doubt feature a conflict of interest. What could Bret Hart and Hulk Hogan have seen eye to eye on if they'd both been members of a wrestling union in 1993?
I just don't see it happening.
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Post by codystarbuck on Oct 31, 2019 18:41:30 GMT -5
Mae Young 76 Years OldShe and Fabulous Moolah were a tag team battling Ivory (She was the WWE Women Champion) and they got together a handicap Bra and Panties match that's unbelievable. Mae Young was pure crazy, taking table drops from Bubba Ray. She actually hadn't wrestled much, before she and Moolah started making appearances in the WWE. She was pretty much just training people, including a lot of guys. She was the last link from the Mildred Burke years. Moolah was also pretty much just training and booking, when they came back. Giant Baba was 60, when he had his last match, but his health deteriorated rapidly and died within a month. However, he was mostly wrestling in comedy matches, in the undercard (not Kenny Omega or Colt Cabana comedy, but, lighter matches to kind of cleanse the palate, before the big ones). Terry Funk is 75 and had his most recent match 2 years ago. he has made a career of retirement matches, starting in 1991. However, his wife, Vicki (seen in Beyond the Mat) just recently passed away and word is that Terry took it very hard (they were married for over 50 years). He didn't start doing a moonsault until he was in his 50s! Dory still wrestled for his own promotion and had his most recent match last year, at age 77. He is still sane enough to keep it on the mat. Sadly, Verne Gagne sort of had a match, at 83. in 2009, he was residing in a nursing home, suffering from dementia and got into an argument with a 97 year-old resident and knocked him to the floor, breaking his hip, then "pulled on the body." It was kind of reported that he bodyslammed and stretched the guy' but, police reports it was more push-shove than anything else. he had no recollection of what happened, nor did the victim, who died a couple of weeks later, due to complications from surgery.
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Post by codystarbuck on Oct 31, 2019 18:54:35 GMT -5
On a wrestling forum I was a member of years ago, there were still people who believed there'd be a wrestling union one day. Never say never, but I don't see it. I think there's more chance of the Yeti showing up in my cab! I have been in unions. It's all about collective bargaining. And unity. I don't see how a wrestling union would see every wrestler joining it. Example: suppose there'd been a wrestling union in the 80s, fighting for better rights, more spotlight, etc. Would Hulk Hogan have joined it? I doubt it. I like Hogan, but in an old magazine interview, the late Dynamite Kid said that Hogan didn't care if you earned pennies in your match as long as he got his big bucks. What if there'd been a union in modern times? Would the likes of Triple H have joined it? What incentive is there for big wrestlers to join? Why would they give up their spot to join a union? It's different from some professions. One union I was in was trying to get better pay, pensions and rights for all of us. A wrestling union would no doubt feature a conflict of interest. What could Bret Hart and Hulk Hogan have seen eye to eye on if they'd both been members of a wrestling union in 1993? I just don't see it happening. They have one, in Mexico, for all the good it has done them. A union requires people to work collectively and far too many wrestlers are in it for themselves. Jesse Ventura claimed (take that with a mine of salt) to have been trying to start one, in the WWF and was stooged out by Hogan. I don't buy that Ventura was ever a labor activist and the claim was made when he was running for governor, in a traditionally Democrat state. He also claimed to be a Navy SEAL and a Vietnam vet. He was with the Underwater Demolitions Teams, which were folded into the SEALs, but was never in Vietnam and never saw combat, apart from maybe a bar fight in Olongapo, in the Philippines (area outside the US Naval base, in Subic Bay). The late 70s and 80s pretty much destroyed the power of unions in the US, apart from the film industry, and none ever seemed to go after westlers to join, like they have other industries. I kno Thatcher did a number on the unions in the UK and the Labor Party, in the Blair years, abandoned them (same as the Democrats, in the Clinton and Obama years). My father was in a teacher's union; but, they are only as good as the willingness of the rank and file to fight. Wrestlers aren't good at that, ironically.
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