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Post by codystarbuck on Nov 10, 2019 19:54:53 GMT -5
Well, in a lot of ways, I think these territory sets were a teaser for the Network. He did the AWA, World Class and Mid-South and there was a ton of great footage from all. He barely scratched the surface, especially Mid-South. Mid-South, from about 1982-85 had some of the best booking in the business. There was so much great stuff, from JYD, at his peak, to Hacksaw Dugan's face turn and battles against Dibiase and the Rat Pack, the dawn of the Rock N Roll Express vs the Midnight Express, Volkoff and Darsow, Mr Wrestling II & Magnum TA, Murdoch and DiBiase Steve Williams coming in, Terry Taylor beating Dibiase for the North American title then facing Flair; so much great stuff AWA had so much Heenan, Bockwinkel and Stevens stuff, The Texas Outlaws (Rhodes & Murdoch) the Blackjacks, bruiser & Crusher, High Flyers, the ESPN years, Curt Hennig coming into his own, Scott Hall's rookie days, the Road Warriors, early Leon "Vader" White (though Vince never seemed to like Vader). One thing the dvd set really failed to capture was the international flavor of the AWA. They promoted Winnipeg regularly, which brought in a lot of Canadian talent, worked with All Japan and highlighted their guys, worked with Otto Wanz and cross promote with Catch Wrestling, etc. In the 80s, they had a succession of international Champions: Otto Wanz won it, then Bockwinkel regained, dropped it to Jumbo Tsuruta, who dropped it to Rick Martel, who dropped it to Hansen, who vacated the title and it went back to Bockwinkel. Later, Masa Saito won it; Mad Vachon had held it. That and the serious sports presentation helped make the AWA feel like a legit wrestling league, not just a company promotion. The NWA was a true league, with various territories and the AWA covered a wide region, plus Canada and the belt was defended in Japan, etc, while the WWF was the northeast, until 1984. Madison Square Garden, and the Philadelphia Spectrum and the Boston Gardens made the WWF important; but, it wasn't that big of a territory; it just had big population centers. The AWA was similar; but, theirs were spread out. In the 70s and 80s, the NWA and AWA were like the National and American Leagues, in Baseball. That's where, if they could have put egos aside, they could have crushe Vince. They had the talent and the early Pro Wrestling USA cards were loaded nd you had the AWA and NWA titles defended. They could have done title vs title matches and World series tournaments and drawn huge; but, no one trusted anyone else and it quickly fell apart and Pro Wrestling USA became just another AWA syndicated show, like All Star Wrestling; and, later, the AWA on ESPN. Verne's problem was that his stars of the late 60s were mostly his stars of the 70s and the 80s, with a few younger guys (the High Flyers, Adonis & Ventura, in the 70s, the Road Warriors, Curt Hennig and Scott Hall, in the 80s). The other promotions brought in new blood, to mix with the old and created new stars. The NWA wasn't still having the Funks vs Briscos and Gene Kiniski, and Pat O'Connor, etc. Harley was still in the mix and the Funks and briscos were still top draws; but, you also had Flair & Steamboat, Tommy Rich, Barry Windham, Lex Luger, Sting, Paul Orndorff, Masked Superstar, the Von Erichs, the Freebirds, the Rock N Roll Express, the Midnight Express, the Fantastics, etc, etc. You had the Horsemen, the Russians, Wahoo, Kevin Sullivan's army. They were vital. Verne's promotion just got old and the young guys didn't get their due until it was too late. By the time they elevated Curt Hennig, he was off to the WWF. Vince SR had some NWA Title matches in his Federation the WWWF Before it became just WWF . SR Saw them as friends JR Saw them as competition/Enemies . Well, Sr rejoined the NWA and remained there until he sold off to Jr. That was how the title vs title bouts came about, with Graham vs Harley and Flair vs Backlund. It's also why the called it the WWF Heavyweight Championship, not the WWF World Heavyweight Championship. The NWA Board forbade any title other than the NWA-sanctioned title from being referred to as the World Heavyweight Championship. Sr was from an era where promoters traded talent and Sr also had longstanding relationships with some key NWA promoters, especially Eddie Graham, in Fl. Sr had a house there and would spend part of his time there and used to consult Graham about programs, as he valued his mind for creating and building angles. Right up until 1984, you got a lot of NWA and AWA talent appearing for MSG cards and some of their other cities. First card I saw (1982) had Tony Atlas, Greg Valentine and Bob Orton, who were all wrestling in NWA territories, regularly, at the time. Dusty was still working Florida, when he would come up and face Graham.
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Post by codystarbuck on Nov 10, 2019 20:03:55 GMT -5
So, any thoughts on WCW World War 3? Running from 1995 to 1998, the PPV featured a three-ring, sixty-man battle royal. At the first event, the winner won the vacant WCW World Heavyweight Championship; in 1996, 1997 and 1998, the winner received a shot at the WCW World Heavyweight Championship. This was obviously WCW's "response" to the Royal Rumble. For me, it was too unwieldy. For starters, three rings and sixty men is overkill. I think a two-ring, forty-men battle royal would have been better. Not only does that make it unique compared with the Royal Rumble, but it'd have been easier on the eyes. Keeping track of sixty men in three rings is cumbersome. And, quite frankly, suspension of disbelief aside, did any wrestling fan in the universe ever believe the majority of the sixty men had a chance of winning the bout? True, the same can be said of the Royal Rumble. In 1992, when the WWF Championship was on the line, I doubt anyone believed Repo Man, Hercules or Skinner were walking away with it, but at the time, there was much speculation (among my friends) about who would win. Could it be Hulk Hogan? Undertaker? Roddy Piper? Maybe the Macho Man? Ric Flair? In a 30-man Rumble, there are probably going to be fewer than 7-9 people who could believably win it. With World War 3, it was less likely. Out of the 60 combatants in the bout, only 3-4 were ever gonna have a chance of winning it during Hogan's era. Out of the 60 at the first event, did anyone really believe the likes of the Yeti, Alex Wright and so many, many others were in with a shot? Given Hogan's creative control at the time, the obvious winners were only ever gonna be Hogan, Giant, Savage, Sting or Luger. Plus, a two-ring forty-man battle royal would be easier on the eye. I respect WCW for coming up with the concept. For legal reasons, they could not have had their own 30-man, enter-the-ring-every-2-minutes bout (I presume the WWF has that locked down/trademarked), but 60 guys in three rings was too much. The event didn't air after 1998, being replaced by Mayhem in 1999. And despite the WWF owning WCW's brand/matches/characters, even they haven't tried to resurrect the concept! You can't trademark a concept and the WWF didn't originate the Royal Rumble format. Battle Royals had all kinds of angles to them, from staggered entries, to double ring elimination, to three ring, etc. Battle Royals were big deals in the 60s and early 70s, especially in places like San Francisco and LA. Roy Shire used to run annual battle royals and Pat Patterson had been his star and he just convinced Vince to do the Rumble with the staggered entry. The WWF trademarked the name, Royal Rumble; but, that was for the event, not the match. It just became synonymous with the match. other promotions did the same thing; but just called it a battle royal. Two-ring elimination BRs were a bit more common than a 3-man, just because of the number of people working a territory, at any one time. You got eliminated from one, you went to the other then fought until last guy standing in each ring, then they had a match. Typical WCW over-complicated it and had a bloated roster (overpaid, too). Personally, I always found battle royals to be rather dull. It was hard to focus on anything and most never got very wild. I have seen pictures where they ran spots where one guy grabs a headlock, then someone grabs a headlock on them, since their hands are burdened and then another and another. One photo showed all participants in a long chain of headlocks. Wish I could find the photo, on the web. Saw it in Pro Wrestling Illustrated, once.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2019 20:16:39 GMT -5
Back during the Federation Era, battle royals for me were one of the few instances where you could see face vs. face and heel vs. heel.
During the Federation Era, heel vs. heel matches were rare. We occasionally saw them, e.g. Macho Man vs. Jake Roberts (1986) or Adam Bomb & Bam Bam Bigelow vs. The Quebecers (1994). I also remember a Power and Glory vs. Orient Express bout in 1991. But it was rare.
So I did welcome battle royals because anybody would take on anybody. Same with the Royal Rumble. Warlord was never gonna go toe-to-toe with Andre the Giant, but the 1990 Royal Rumble was the place to see such a brief skirmish. Or Hogan vs. Warrior. Even tag team partners went at it, e.g. Ax vs. Smash in 1989. At the 1991 Royal Rumble, Rick Martel and Paul Roma started scrapping despite being managed by Slick. And in that same bout, Mr. Perfect seemed to get hit a lot, including by Earthquake.
But I do wish there had been some WWF battle royals where they'd gone with face vs. face or heel vs. heel for the ending. It did get quite predictable at times. You'd have two heels working over a face in a battle royal (e.g. Mountie and Typhoon working over Davey Boy Smith at the Battle Royal at the Albert Hall). Predictably, though, one heel would accidentally knock the other heel over the ropes, leaving face vs. heel at the end. Also happened in a 1991 battle royal on SNME: Mr. Perfect and the Barbarian were working over Greg Valentine, but if memory serves me right, Perfect accidentally eliminated Barbarian. But imagine if it'd been Perfect vs. Barbarian as the last two.
I just felt that spot became predictable. Heel #1 would always hold face in place so that heel #2 could clothesline or splash the face, but face ducks at the last moment, causing heel #2 to accidentally eliminate heel #1. I'm not saying that happened every time, but it happened on a lot of occasions. Changing the formula now and again would have pleased me.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2019 22:30:51 GMT -5
Also happened in a 1991 battle royal on SNME: Mr. Perfect and the Barbarian were working over Greg Valentine, but if memory serves me right, Perfect accidentally eliminated Barbarian. But imagine if it'd been Perfect vs. Barbarian as the last two. I do remember that battle royale well and I was very surprised to see Greg Valentine to survive that long and seeing the shock that Mr. Perfect eliminating the Barbarian and coming out a winner over Greg "The Hammer" Valentine. I have mixed feelings about a heel versus heel and face versus face for the final two because its doesn't seems right to me. If that Battle Royale had both Perfect and the Barbarian as the final two ... I would be having a fit who would come out victorious in that match alone ... and would not like it one bit. I would love to see Valentine winning over Mr. Perfect!
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Post by wickedmountain on Nov 10, 2019 23:27:30 GMT -5
Vince SR had some NWA Title matches in his Federation the WWWF Before it became just WWF . SR Saw them as friends JR Saw them as competition/Enemies . Well, Sr rejoined the NWA and remained there until he sold off to Jr. That was how the title vs title bouts came about, with Graham vs Harley and Flair vs Backlund. It's also why the called it the WWF Heavyweight Championship, not the WWF World Heavyweight Championship. The NWA Board forbade any title other than the NWA-sanctioned title from being referred to as the World Heavyweight Championship. Sr was from an era where promoters traded talent and Sr also had longstanding relationships with some key NWA promoters, especially Eddie Graham, in Fl. Sr had a house there and would spend part of his time there and used to consult Graham about programs, as he valued his mind for creating and building angles. Right up until 1984, you got a lot of NWA and AWA talent appearing for MSG cards and some of their other cities. First card I saw (1982) had Tony Atlas, Greg Valentine and Bob Orton, who were all wrestling in NWA territories, regularly, at the time. Dusty was still working Florida, when he would come up and face Graham. Yea i know it's just annoying how Vince JR would not even mention or recognize these other feds ever again after his dad passed away. or wrestlers for that matter. So many of them wrestled for SR previously yet Vince jr would say making his debut here tonight and it was not his debut for the federation.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2019 7:08:19 GMT -5
Well, not saying every battle royal should come down to face vs. face or heel vs. heel, but occasionally it might have been nice.
I guess a little bit of predictability is good. But the spot of two heels working over one face before heel #1 accidentally eliminates heel #2 was overused at times. But then, wrestling fans, myself included, want predictability at times in the same way Bond fans want to see beautiful women, gadgets and stunts.
I like battle royals/Rumbles where there are little "arcs" going on. In the aforementioned SNME 1991 battle royal, there was a lot going on. Perfect was ducking and diving. Tugboat acted very heelish as he and his ally Hulk Hogan went at it (not that long before Tugboat became Typhoon). Jake Roberts continued his feud with Earthquake, but was eliminated; however, he bought his snake to the ring causing a bit of panic from everyone.
Same with the Royal Rumble. If you ask me, 1993 and 2006 were the weakest. Others had so many memorable moments, whether it be Ted DiBiase lasting 40+ minutes in 1990, Ric Flair surviving in 1992, Diesel eliminating a lot of opponents in 1994 as a clearly apprehensive Shawn Michaels wonders if he is next, etc, etc. All I remember of 1993 and 2006 are forgettable eliminations after eliminations.
So I like it when battle royals/Rumbles do feature memorable moments, build on what has come before, build to what is coming next. The road to a heel or face turn can come at the Rumble. Diesel was popular at the 1994 event - and I would say his transition to face started there. Maybe Tugboat's transition to heel began at the 1991 event as he appeared pissed off at being eliminated by his ally Hulk Hogan. And the dissension between the Mega Powers may well have started at the 1989 event.
The Battle Royal at the Albert Hall (late 1991) is a favourite of mine. I love the entrances there. Faces and heels are bickering in the ring. The Rockers and Nasty Boys are giving each other the eye, Big Boss Man gets in Knobbs' face, etc. But then the participants go deathly quiet as the Undertaker enters the ring. The crowd then erupts as Piper makes his way down. After that, there is so much going on. I remember being disappointed that Hulk Hogan wasn't at that event, but then I realise he may well have requested that he win it. I'm glad Davey Boy Smith was the victor.
Maybe I will watch those World War 3 events again at some point.
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Post by codystarbuck on Nov 11, 2019 12:13:56 GMT -5
Well, Sr rejoined the NWA and remained there until he sold off to Jr. That was how the title vs title bouts came about, with Graham vs Harley and Flair vs Backlund. It's also why the called it the WWF Heavyweight Championship, not the WWF World Heavyweight Championship. The NWA Board forbade any title other than the NWA-sanctioned title from being referred to as the World Heavyweight Championship. Sr was from an era where promoters traded talent and Sr also had longstanding relationships with some key NWA promoters, especially Eddie Graham, in Fl. Sr had a house there and would spend part of his time there and used to consult Graham about programs, as he valued his mind for creating and building angles. Right up until 1984, you got a lot of NWA and AWA talent appearing for MSG cards and some of their other cities. First card I saw (1982) had Tony Atlas, Greg Valentine and Bob Orton, who were all wrestling in NWA territories, regularly, at the time. Dusty was still working Florida, when he would come up and face Graham. Yea i know it's just annoying how Vince JR would not even mention or recognize these other feds ever again after his dad passed away. or wrestlers for that matter. So many of them wrestled for SR previously yet Vince jr would say making his debut here tonight and it was not his debut for the federation. Apart, strangely, from Jack Brisco and Harley Race having been World Champions. I think part of that was that they came in as Vince was now broadcasting in their old markets (St Louis, for Harley and Georgia, for the Briscos). The weirdest thing was acknowledging Kerry Von Erich winning the World title, in Texas Stadium. Over the years, the consensus seems to be that he was courting the Von Erichs to buy them out to get the Dallas-Ft Worth Metroplex audience, but Fritz wanted a merger, not a soll off and they couldn't come to terms. Kerry would come in after Dallas was pretty much dead. Other thing was when All-American Wrestling first debuted on USA. Vince featured matches from places like Florida and Mid-Atlantic, which some later pointed out was like Vince's shopping list for the talent he raided, as it was guys like Piper, Orndorff, Brian Blair, Jim Brunzell and some others. It took a little while after the Hogan title win for it to become exclusively WWF matches.
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Post by wickedmountain on Nov 12, 2019 10:42:10 GMT -5
Yea i know it's just annoying how Vince JR would not even mention or recognize these other feds ever again after his dad passed away. or wrestlers for that matter. So many of them wrestled for SR previously yet Vince jr would say making his debut here tonight and it was not his debut for the federation. Apart, strangely, from Jack Brisco and Harley Race having been World Champions. I think part of that was that they came in as Vince was now broadcasting in their old markets (St Louis, for Harley and Georgia, for the Briscos). The weirdest thing was acknowledging Kerry Von Erich winning the World title, in Texas Stadium. Over the years, the consensus seems to be that he was courting the Von Erichs to buy them out to get the Dallas-Ft Worth Metroplex audience, but Fritz wanted a merger, not a soll off and they couldn't come to terms. Kerry would come in after Dallas was pretty much dead. Other thing was when All-American Wrestling first debuted on USA. Vince featured matches from places like Florida and Mid-Atlantic, which some later pointed out was like Vince's shopping list for the talent he raided, as it was guys like Piper, Orndorff, Brian Blair, Jim Brunzell and some others. It took a little while after the Hogan title win for it to become exclusively WWF matches. Hey friend , yea I agree with you on that one Kevin or Kerry did do a match or two for Vince SR the footage was on you tube hopefully is still on it. Wow i didn't know that show featured matches from those other federations interesting ! Also interesting that They talked about Kerry winning the world title in Texas stadium i didn't know that info either thank you for that info friend
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Post by wickedmountain on Nov 12, 2019 10:44:29 GMT -5
Found it it's from 1980 ! Kerry at MSG in 1980 !
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Post by wickedmountain on Nov 12, 2019 10:46:19 GMT -5
Found Kevin debut at MSG in 1980 same year as Kerry
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2019 13:01:40 GMT -5
Found it it's from 1980 ! Kerry at MSG in 1980 ! I was there.
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Post by codystarbuck on Nov 12, 2019 13:50:59 GMT -5
Apart, strangely, from Jack Brisco and Harley Race having been World Champions. I think part of that was that they came in as Vince was now broadcasting in their old markets (St Louis, for Harley and Georgia, for the Briscos). The weirdest thing was acknowledging Kerry Von Erich winning the World title, in Texas Stadium. Over the years, the consensus seems to be that he was courting the Von Erichs to buy them out to get the Dallas-Ft Worth Metroplex audience, but Fritz wanted a merger, not a soll off and they couldn't come to terms. Kerry would come in after Dallas was pretty much dead. Other thing was when All-American Wrestling first debuted on USA. Vince featured matches from places like Florida and Mid-Atlantic, which some later pointed out was like Vince's shopping list for the talent he raided, as it was guys like Piper, Orndorff, Brian Blair, Jim Brunzell and some others. It took a little while after the Hogan title win for it to become exclusively WWF matches. Hey friend , yea I agree with you on that one Kevin or Kerry did do a match or two for Vince SR the footage was on you tube hopefully is still on it. Wow i didn't know that show featured matches from those other federations interesting ! Also interesting that They talked about Kerry winning the world title in Texas stadium i didn't know that info either thank you for that info friend They had photos in the Aug/Sep 1984 issue of the WWF Magazine! See the contents here...
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Post by wickedmountain on Nov 12, 2019 14:37:09 GMT -5
Found it it's from 1980 ! Kerry at MSG in 1980 ! I was there. OMG Awesome must of been amazing! I Wouldn't see wrestling on TV until 1984 We didn't have cable or Satellite dish available to us at that time . The town we were in got cable after we moved in 1986 . We had a Satellite dish first in 1987 till 1989 i believe was the year , then we got cable after that. Our Satellite dish was ruined by this idiot running a backhoe it threw it completely off center so it wouldn't work . instead of my dad getting it fixed we got cable instead. It was one of those big huge dishes back then , I can't believe how small they would become later on with Direct TV .
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Post by wickedmountain on Nov 12, 2019 14:40:39 GMT -5
This Dish looks like the one we had except ours was a 1986 one that we moved to the new house in 1987.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2019 16:57:23 GMT -5
This Dish looks like the one we had except ours was a 1986 one that we moved to the new house in 1987. I don't see these in my area because of Comcast/Xfinity pretty much destroyed Satellite Dishes back then and even today. Those things are huge.
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