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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2020 10:29:51 GMT -5
I did read - and I can never vouch for accuracy here - that Hulk Hogan and Ultimate Warrior rehearsed their WrestleMania VI match.
On that note, I have read a lot of newsletters/magazines over time, but how sure can we be of truth? One magazine mentioned that Shawn Michaels was dithering over whether to put Steve Austin over at WrestleMania XIV - and that prior to their bout, Undertaker taped up his fist and implied to Michaels that there'd be a beating if Austin wasn't put over. Others have said no such thing happened. Without having a regular office at the arenas, I can't say for sure.
Some things we do know to be true. Or have a pretty good idea of. Some things are denied. I mean, only Vince, Hogan and Bret really know the complete story about who said what when it came to putting Bret over in 1993. Yes, I can imagine Hogan didn't want to put Bret over (that's credible), but I've read things like, 'Hogan had said Bret wasn't in his league.' Did Hogan say that? Did Bret hear that? Is the truth somewhere in between?
So I don't know if Hogan/Warrior rehearsed their match, not 100%.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jan 2, 2020 18:18:00 GMT -5
I did read - and I can never vouch for accuracy here - that Hulk Hogan and Ultimate Warrior rehearsed their WrestleMania VI match. On that note, I have read a lot of newsletters/magazines over time, but how sure can we be of truth? One magazine mentioned that Shawn Michaels was dithering over whether to put Steve Austin over at WrestleMania XIV - and that prior to their bout, Undertaker taped up his fist and implied to Michaels that there'd be a beating if Austin wasn't put over. Others have said no such thing happened. Without having a regular office at the arenas, I can't say for sure. Some things we do know to be true. Or have a pretty good idea of. Some things are denied. I mean, only Vince, Hogan and Bret really know the complete story about who said what when it came to putting Bret over in 1993. Yes, I can imagine Hogan didn't want to put Bret over (that's credible), but I've read things like, 'Hogan had said Bret wasn't in his league.' Did Hogan say that? Did Bret hear that? Is the truth somewhere in between? So I don't know if Hogan/Warrior rehearsed their match, not 100%. Cornette backs up the story that Undertaker was sitting at the Gorilla Position, fists taped, ready to act if Shawn tried to pull anything. When the match went as planned, he got up, pulled off the tape, and went back to the dressing room. Cornette was on the booking committee, during that time. The Observer is generally pretty factual, as Dave does his fact checking, as best can be done. the Torch has been caught out with false stories and pretty much everyone else gets their info from those two. No one is perfect; but, Dave has a pretty good track record with reporting what happened and for covering the historical details. His analysis of the business is pretty good. That said, he has his blind spots, like anyone else. The problem with wrestling is that you have to get the "facts" from guys who spent careers playing a con or who are being political to keep limited options open. So, truth is a pretty early casualty. Shoot interviews are notorious for false stories, bad memories, and spin. You have guys like Ric Flair claiming to be in Puerto Rico when Brody was stabbed, when a quick scan of the card shows he wasn't and it doesn't take much to check his NWA bookings. Everyone takes credit for the hits and someone else is always responsible for the flops. Hogan and Warrior rehearsing their match is like rehearsing 10 seconds of a 5 minute dance routine. Wouldn't take much. These days, they rehearse the entire match, in some circumstances. Pretty certain that Hogan called the match, as the heel usually did, or the veteran and Hogan had way more experience calling a match than Warrior. Warrior could barely stumble through a match and could only call, "Shake the ropes, beat chest, bodyslam, splash. Pin." Not many "drop down, leap frog, hip toss into headlock" spots in a Warrior match (or Hogan, by that point).
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2020 18:53:37 GMT -5
So, any views on Ken Patera?
I seem to know more about the McDonalds incident than his career. The only bouts I have seen of his are televised WWF bouts (and PPVs). I remember finding him intriguing, but although one can check Wikipedia, I've not seen any of his pre-WWF bouts or post-WWF bouts. He seemed like a natural talent, though.
Anyone follow his career closely?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2020 22:51:04 GMT -5
So, any views on Ken Patera? I seem to know more about the McDonalds incident than his career. The only bouts I have seen of his are televised WWF bouts (and PPVs). I remember finding him intriguing, but although one can check Wikipedia, I've not seen any of his pre-WWF bouts or post-WWF bouts. He seemed like a natural talent, though. Anyone follow his career closely? Not really and I only saw him in two battle royales and a handful of insignifiant singles matches in the late 70's and early 80's. Sorry.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jan 4, 2020 0:31:56 GMT -5
So, any views on Ken Patera? I seem to know more about the McDonalds incident than his career. The only bouts I have seen of his are televised WWF bouts (and PPVs). I remember finding him intriguing, but although one can check Wikipedia, I've not seen any of his pre-WWF bouts or post-WWF bouts. He seemed like a natural talent, though. Anyone follow his career closely? Saw a bit of his career, in the AWA and WWF. He was trained by Verne Gagne, in the same camp as Ric Flair and Greg Gagne. Iron Sheik was also there and helped train the guys. Good worker; one of the legit strongest guys in the business. His finisher was a Giant Swing, where he locked his opponent in a ful nelson, then spun in a circle with the guy off his feet, before dumping him on the mat. He took part in the first World's Strongest Men competition, finishing third. His brothers, Jack and Dennis, both played in the NFL. He was a track and field standout at Brigham Young University, won a Gold Medal in weightlifting, as the 1921 Pan-American Games and was part of the 1972 US Olympic Weightlifting team, but did not medal. He was a rival of the dominant superheavyweight, Vasily Alekseyev, who won Gold, in Munich. Patera left weightlifting behind when they eliminated his specialty, the clean & press. He soon went into Gagne's training camp and came out a wrestler. He wrestled all over, with the WWF and AWA his two main territories, though he also wrestled in Memphis, Mid-Atlantic, St Louis, Georgia, Mid-South/Tri-State, Dallas, adn San Antonio. He was the second WWF Intercontinental Champion, defeating Pat Patterson for the title, before dropping it to Pedro Morales. Patera also held the Missouri State title, in St Louis, while he was the Intercontinental Champion. He held the Georgia Hwt title, Mid-Atlantic title, CWA International title and a few tag titles, including the AWA World Tag-Team titles, with Jerry Blackwell. It was in the AWA that he and Saito had their infamous meltdown when they found the place closed, after the matches and unwilling to open and serve them. Patera shotputted a decorative boulder through a window, then he and Saito brawled with cops (Saito beat the snot out of multiple). That was then used as an angle to turn him babyface in the WWF, after his release. Here's Patera vs Jimmy Snuka, in Houston, in 1979...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2020 8:34:14 GMT -5
Does anyone know why the WWF came up with a fictitious tournament (Rio de Janeiro) to describe the creation of the Intercontinental Championship? I know wrestling can often be built on lies, good or bad, but I don't know why there was a need to come up with a fictional tournament. Why not just create the belt and hold a legitimate battle royal or something?
Also, is the Honky Tonk Man the greatest WWF Intercontinental Champion of all time, given the long reign? And will that reign ever be surpassed?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2020 11:23:18 GMT -5
Does anyone know why the WWF came up with a fictitious tournament (Rio de Janeiro) to describe the creation of the Intercontinental Championship? I know wrestling can often be built on lies, good or bad, but I don't know why there was a need to come up with a fictional tournament. Why not just create the belt and hold a legitimate battle royal or something? I don't know anything about it. Sorry.Also, is the Honky Tonk Man the greatest WWF Intercontinental Champion of all time, given the long reign? And will that reign ever be surpassed? He was the IC Champ for 64 weeks and held it one time only. His reign will never be surpassed and was not the greatest because he wasn't that competitive "figure of speech" ... that's what my friends told me. Comments in Bold inside your quote.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jan 4, 2020 19:34:20 GMT -5
Wrestling promoters seemed to prefer fictitious tournaments to launch new titles. Sometimes, it is a gimmick for a wrestler who comes into the territory (Billy Robinson's British Empire title, in the AWA) and sometimes its to introduce a new title that is taking the place of one felt to be outdated (like the Georgia titles being replaced by the National titles, due to the exposure on WTBS nationally). Some of the motivation is due to the existence of wrestling magazines, which covered other territories. A promotion might bring in a new wrestler who had been a big name elsewhere and bill him as the holder of a different version of the same title contested in the old territory. For instance, Nature Boy Buddy Rogers was the US champion in Chicago and defended the belt elsewhere, including the WWF. He gave up the US title when he won the NWA World title from Pat O'Connor. There were other US titles in other promotions, at different times, since it wasn't an NWA title, owned by the Board. They only sanctioned the World Hwt and Jr Hwt titles. When Bobo Brazil came into the WWWF, in 1963, he had been US champion in Detroit (which took it's lineage from the Chicago US title); so, he was billed as the WWWF Us Champion. generally though, they would just call it the US Hwt championship, without using the WWWF name, as brand names weren't as important as the title itself. The WWWF used the US title as their secondary singles belt until 1976. It was then replaced by a North American title, in 1979. Ted DiBiase came into the WWF (as it had been renamed, in 1979) as the first WWF North American Champion. DiBiase had been working for Tri-State wrestling, which was the Oklahoma territory of Leroy McGuirk, which became Mid-South Wrestling, when Bill Watts took over, soon after. Their top title was the North American Hwt championship and Dibiase had held it and got a lot of magazine coverage, as he was being groomed as a potential NWA World champion. He was billed as champion upon arrival and dropped the title to Pat Patterson, in Feb 1979. Patterson was the only title holder, in the actual WWF. In September of that year, it was alleged he had beaten Johnny Rodz, in a tournament in Rio, to unify the North American title with a non-existent South American title, to become the first Intercontinental champion. That became the secondary title from then one. In reality, they wanted to replace their old US title, as there was a US title in Detroit, Mid-Atlantic and San Francisco. There was only one North American title, in Oklahoma, so they used Ted DiBiase coming in to launch it. They then decided to make it sound even bigger by making it a title representing the entire Western Hemisphere. Introducing titles this way made it seem like champions from elsewhere were coming into your home territory and the local heroes were defeating them for their belts. It gave them instant prestige, rather than look like what it was, a secondary title for the undercard and a steppingstone to working with the World champion. The had other titles, before buying WCW's belts. They initially had a US tag team title, which was replaced by the WWWF Tag team title, which changed initials with the company. The US title lasted until 1976. They had a Junior Hwt title, which was originally used after breaking with the NWA, but to showcase guys who had wrestled for that title elsewhere. It was deactivated in 1972, then revived in 1978, when the WWF began a relationship with New Japan. The title was won by Tatsumi Fujinami and taken to Japan to be used, though some Japanese stars would defend in on US tours of the WWF, like Tiger Mask and The Cobra. When the WWF broke with New Japan, in 1985, those titles were replaced by New Japan. They had also re-created an International Title and International Tag-Team title, which were replaced by the IWGP titles. They also had a working agreement with the UWA, in Mexico and created the WWF Light Hwt title for their use (there was a rival NWA Lt Hwt title, in EMLL/CMLL). The UWA went under in the early 90s and the Lt Hwt title ended up in Japan, as New Japan also worked with the UWA. It ended up as part of the J-Crown. As for the Honky Tonk Man, I think it had more to do with the fact that keeping the title on him kept heat on him, so that he could have programs with better guys. Otherwise, Ferris was never that great a wrestler, but he got tremendous heel heat as he was an obnoxious nitwit you liked to see get beat up. The WWF, traditionally, worked opposite of most NWA titles, with a hero world champion taking on monsters and villains, while a heel Intercontinental (etc) champion faced babyfaces. The NWA model was a heel champion being chased by babyfaces. Really, a long reign by Steamboat would have been much better matches; but, that didn't fit their booking philosophy. I always thought Don Muraco was a better heel Intercontinental champion than HTM, or Randy Savage, for that matter.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2020 6:20:58 GMT -5
Wrestling promoters seemed to prefer fictitious tournaments to launch new titles. Sometimes, it is a gimmick for a wrestler who comes into the territory (Billy Robinson's British Empire title, in the AWA) and sometimes its to introduce a new title that is taking the place of one felt to be outdated (like the Georgia titles being replaced by the National titles, due to the exposure on WTBS nationally). I have been following Pro Wrestling since 1976 and I have never once heard anything like a fictitious tournaments to launch new titles. I find this practice rather odd and unusual and strange and this might a poor choice of words here ... but this is totally illogical to me. I know about 40% of all the territories that you've mentioned and this is not what I've expected and seems odd to me and this is nothing short of being deceitful to the fans like us following it. I consider this act ... rather dishonest (maybe not the right word here) ... and in poor taste. What you written in this post is a total eye-opener and thanks for sharing it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2020 6:25:01 GMT -5
What happened to Shane Douglas? ... he seems to disappear from the scenes and one of my favorite ECW Wrestler ... and wrestled in WCW somewhat briefly.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2020 8:21:14 GMT -5
Wrestling promoters seemed to prefer fictitious tournaments to launch new titles. Sometimes, it is a gimmick for a wrestler who comes into the territory (Billy Robinson's British Empire title, in the AWA) and sometimes its to introduce a new title that is taking the place of one felt to be outdated (like the Georgia titles being replaced by the National titles, due to the exposure on WTBS nationally). I have been following Pro Wrestling since 1976 and I have never once heard anything like a fictitious tournaments to launch new titles. I find this practice rather odd and unusual and strange and this might a poor choice of words here ... but this is totally illogical to me. I know about 40% of all the territories that you've mentioned and this is not what I've expected and seems odd to me and this is nothing short of being deceitful to the fans like us following it. I consider this act ... rather dishonest (maybe not the right word here) ... and in poor taste. What you written in this post is a total eye-opener and thanks for sharing it. Shows how things change. Remember when Triple H was simply awarded Raw's heavyweight title in 2002? I didn't like it, but at least it was honest. And in the digital/internet age, they had no choice. You wouldn't have fictitious tournaments now. The thing is, WWF Magazine used to mention the I-C title tournament in Rio de Janeiro. In the pre-internet age, I remember thinking about how cool it would have been to be alive in 1979 and be able to watch that. Yet it never took place. Most odd.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2020 8:24:38 GMT -5
What happened to Shane Douglas? ... he seems to disappear from the scenes and one of my favorite ECW Wrestler ... and wrestled in WCW somewhat briefly. I always found him an absorbing wrestler to watch. And wish he'd done even better in the WWF.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2020 9:43:43 GMT -5
What happened to Shane Douglas? ... he seems to disappear from the scenes and one of my favorite ECW Wrestler ... and wrestled in WCW somewhat briefly. I always found him an absorbing wrestler to watch. And wish he'd done even better in the WWF. I only knew him in ECW, WCW, and I've totally forgot TNA Impact too ... and I understand why you consider him somewhat an absorbing wrestler; but he had some entertaining qualities and was ECW version of Lex (somewhat) Luger and did decent promos as well. I last watched him when he was in TNA back in 2006 and disappeared on me. According to the internet he did appeared in 2007 in TNA and I did not know that. It was his only appearance and I haven't heard from him since then.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2020 10:04:55 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2020 19:21:18 GMT -5
Any thoughts on Bobby "The Brain" Heenan?
He may well be my favourite WWF manager of all time - and I say that as a fan of the likes of Jimmy Hart, Slick, Mr. Fuji, etc.
Heenan had such a natural talent. He was part of many memorable moments at ringside (such as his confrontation with Mr. Fuji at the 1990 Royal Rumble after Andre the Giant had eliminated the Warlord). And when he became a commentator, it was even more fun. I missed his ringside presence, but he was part of many memorable moments as a commentator, right up there with Jesse Ventura's heel broadcasting.
I loved how biased he was during the 1992 Royal Rumble when he was rooting for Ric Flair. Hercules entered the ring and began attacking Flair. Heenan was all exasperated, saying, "What is wrong with you, Hercules?!" I find it amusing that he was "financial adviser" to Flair (hope you were watching your wallet, Flair, can't trust a heel manager!).
While he did seem to lose interest and go through the motions a tad in WCW, I will never forget his WWF work. Also, thanks to DVDs and the WWF Network, I've been able to see him wrestle too!
This made me smile:
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