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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2020 13:20:01 GMT -5
I wish I could like that post twice!
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 20, 2020 18:56:08 GMT -5
Looks more like Dee Snider from Twisted Sister if he was jacked up to hell and back Dee Snider would have messed Shawn up. Look what he did to Niedermeyer, in those videos, without direct action!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2020 9:26:18 GMT -5
So, I'm trying a Pro Wrestling Torch subscription - which includes almost every back issue they have published (I think only the first 22 newsletters are excluded).
I read a 1988 newsletter last night. One columnist, talking about the NWA, said he'd get rid of the TV Title, Florida Title, Western States Title and the Six-Man Title. Interesting.
Less is more. Sometimes.
Now, since the brand split in the early 2000s, I thought it was absurd for Raw and SmackDown to have world tag team titles. There weren't enough teams in the entire WWF to have one competitive tag division, let alone two divisions with their own titles. Big mistakes, if you ask me. As a kid, I "lobbied" for an Intercontinental Tag Team Championship. From 1988-90, I thought there were enough teams to have two sets of belts, but not in the early 2000s.
I also thought it was absurd when WCW, in 1993/94, had the WCW World Heavyweight Championship and International World Heavyweight Championship. Isn't "International" the world?
However, I think you can have quality and quantity. A good example is 1992. The WCW World Title had prestige thanks to Sting's defences/feud with Vader; Rick Rude brought a lot of prestige to the US Championship; and Stunning Steve Austin brought a lot of prestige to the Television Championship. Meanwhile, the World Tag Team Championship had much prestige as the likes of the Steiners and Arn Anderson/Bobby Eaton battled for it; and I thought the US Tag Team Championship still had a lot of steam left that year, especially when the Freebirds took on Terrence Taylor and Greg Valentine at WrestleWar 1992. So all of those titles worked. There was the quality and quantity.
It just isn't that way. Right now, I wish the WWF had ONE world champion, not two. It's bad enough a real sport like boxing having numerous alphabet groups and multiple world heavyweight champions. Wrestling isn't a real sport, but it still could use fewer titles at times.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 22, 2020 20:34:52 GMT -5
Well, the Unified title was supposed to take care of that and one champion would defend with both brands; but, no one except Lesner has been over enough for that to work, since. 1988 was still Crockett and the proliferation of titles was due to buying out other promotions: Florida, Central States and the UWF. Florida had the Florida Hwt Title, the Southern Hwt Title, the Bahamas Title and the US Tag-Team Title. The Southern title was dropped and the US tag titles went away, then were used as a gimmick for the Midnight Express, while the Horsemen had the World Tag-Team Title. They eventually dropped the Florida title, after using it as a gimmick for Rick Steiner, in the Varsity Club (Mike REotunda held it and the tv title and "gave" Steiner the Florida titlem then it was retired after he turned face, in the Robin Green angle, with Nancy Sullivan as the character). The Western State Heritage title was used between Crockett's syndicated tv and the UWF, after buying it; but, it died quickly after the UWF was folded in with Crockett's main roster. The tv title remained until the end (and sort of revived under the Billy Corgan NWA, using Arn's belt design). The Six-Man title was a gimmick for the Road Warriors, since they were splitting time in Japan, It was used to pair them with Dusty, against the Horsemen, and Genichiro Tenryu, in All-Japan. It was dropped when they became World Tag champs, briefly revived unde WCW, then dropped again. Six-man titles really only work when you have large rival factions, like the Freebirds vs Von Erichs, in World Class, and Road Warriors vs the Russians, in Crockett (and Horsemen). The only places that used those kinds of titles regularly were Mexico, where Trios matches were the main booking arrangement and the WAR promotion, in Japan, which was run by Tenryu. The WWF ended up with too many titles, at different points. For years, they had the WWF Hwt title, the Intercontinental Title (before that they had a North American Title) and the WWF Tag-Team Titles. They sort of inherited the women's title, when Mookah dropped it to Wendy Richter, but Moolah owned the belt and it was returned to her when they doublecrossed Richter, in a contract dispute. They added the European title for Davey Boy Smith, when they toured the UK and Europe, but it was mostly inactive when they weren't touring there. They revived it for the Attitude Era, then dropped it. They had a Junior Hwt title, that was pretty much the property of New Japan, from the late 70s on; and, a Lt Hwt title that was the property of the UWA, in Mexico. The Jr Hwt title was retired when New Japan parted ways with the WWF and renamed all their titles the IWGP championships. The Lt Hwt title continued in the UWA, until they closed shop. Then it was bought by one of the Japanese promotions (I think New Japan) and brought in for the J-Crown tournament, that united 8 titles, won by Great Sasuke. By that pouint, WCW was having bug success with their Cruiserweight matches and title and the WWF tried to copy with a Lt Hwt title, which ended up with Taka Michinoku, of Michinoku Pro, who had a relationship with the WWF. They dropped it after the WCW buyout and replaced it with the Cruiseweight title. They kept the main WCW titles for the Invasion angle, then used them for the brand split, using the World, US and World tag titles for the one and WWF, Intercontinental and WWF tag titles for the other (with the initial changes thrown in, to boot). The WCW World and International World title thing happened by accident. WCW broke with the NWA, after Flair quit. However, after Jim Her was gone, they were mending fences and had worked with them and New Japan to set up a torunament for the NWA World title, which was won by Masahiro Chono. He dropped it to The Great Muta, who dropped it to Barry Windham. Windham was supposed to get a longer run with the title, to set up Flair winning the title and face the WCW World champion in a title vs title match, which he would win and unite the two belts. WCW and the NWA fell out with each other and the NWA prevented them from using the NWA name; but, Flair had owned the belt, which was created by Crockett for Flair. Flair eventually sent it back to WCW and it became their property. So, they created a fictitional promotion, WCW International, which recognized Flair as world champion. That is why it was called the WCW International World Title; it wasn't the "WCW....International World....Title;" it was the "WCW International......World Title". Don't know why they didn't use a defunct name, like the IWA (a group that tried to run national, in the 70s, with Mil Mascaras as their one and only world champion and he still wears the belt at appearances), rather than that whole convoluted mess. They could have just called it the International title. Funnily enough, the NWA International Title that was part of the All-Japan Triple Crown was originally a gimmick belt that Lou Thesz created to use on a Japanese tour, when he was no longer NWA World champion, but a huge draw there (thanks to bouts with Rikidozan). Thesz left them the belt and it was used there after, alongside their United National Title. Later, they created a Pacific Wrestling Federation governing body and created a PWF Hwt title to be their top belt. Then, in the early 90s (or very late 80s) they united the United National, International and PWF titles into the Triple Crown. New Japan took that idea a step further and launched the J-Crown tournament, to unite 8 different titles. It included the IWGP Jr Hwt title (New Japan), the WAR International Jr Hwt Title (WAR), the British Commonwealth Jr Hwt Title (Michinoku Pro), the WWA Welterweight title (WWA Mexico), the NWA Jr Hwt title (Wrestle Dream Factory), NWA Welterweight Title (EMLL), WWF Lt Hwt Title (UWA/New Japan), UWA World Jr Lt Hwt title (UWA/Michinoku Pro). The NWA Jr Hwt title had been defunct for some time; but was revived under the new NWA of the 90s (a few US indies, Steve Rickard in New Zealand and Pro Wrestling Zero One in Japan) for a tournament promoted by Motegi, for his Wrestle Dream Factory indie promotion. Each belt was defended by the champion in their match. The opening round saw the winners emerge with two titles. Then, in the semi-finalsm the winners gained 4 titles; and, the finals made Great sasuke the holder of 8 titles. He then dropped the J-Crown titles to Ultimo Dragon, who still held the NWA Middleweight title, in Mexico, giving him 9 titles. He then won the WCW Cruiserweight title, giving him 10. He dropped it to Jushin Liger, then problems started. He dropped the WAR International Jr title, by itself, making it 7 (assume WAR wanted their belt back). The WWF sent a cease and desist from using their title and it became just 6 titles (Dragon still held the WCW Cruiserweight and NWA Middleweight titles). Not long after they broke it up and sent the Mexican titles back to their owners. Dragon dropped the WCW title, but used the NWA Middleweight title in his Toryumon promotion, in Mexico and Japan. This is Ultimo Dragon, with all ten belts... Great Sasuke when he was presented all 8 belts, after winning the tournament... In the tournament, each champion had a model who acted as a valet for the title belt. They carried the title belt to the ring for the champion. Then, when the match was over, the two models carried the belts back for the new dual champions. After the semis, four models carried them for Ultimo Dragon and Great Sasuke. Then, after the finals, the 8 models carried the belts for Sasuke. Tehy also appeared with them at a couple of his shows and when Dragon defeated him on a WAR show. Dragon would wear all of the belts to the ring in WCW. You can see the models standing behind Sasuke, here.... Judging by the white heels, I think a few of them might be Essex Girls. Well, except for the blond hair....
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 22, 2020 20:56:52 GMT -5
ps I can identify the belts, if you are curious... Starting from the left: (Dragon's right hand and arm) NWA World Middleweight Title, WWF Lt Hwt Title, British Commonwealth Jr Hwt Title (Neck, left to right)-NWA World Welterweight Title, NWA World Jr Hwt Title (Torso, inner to outer) WAR International Jr Hwt Title, IWGP Jr Hwt Title (Dragon's left arm, from torso to hand) WWA Welterweight Ttitle, UWA Jr Lt Hwt Title, WCW Cruiserweight Title I used to own a videotape of the tournament, which was second only to the 1994 Super J Cup Tournament, won by Chris Benoit, when he defeated Great Sasuke in the finals. The J-Crown tournament was the brainchild of Jushin Liger, who was booking the Junior division for New Japan. A challenge was made at a cross-promotional event and the champions laid their title belts down, in the ring. The tournament was run over two nights. Would have loved to have seen something like this done with the various world titles, when they still meant something. Just Imagine NWA, AWA, WWF, IWGP (Japan), All-Japan Triple Crown, CWA (Europe), UWA (Mexico) and CMLL(Mexico). Only problem is the CMLL World Hwt title didn't come into existence until 1991, by which point the AWA was on life support and soon died,. I suppose you could substitute Mil Mascaras' IWA title, which he "defended" in Mexico.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2020 6:51:36 GMT -5
I remember being surprised by wrestlers holding so many title belts!
I read another 1988 issue of the Pro Wrestling Torch last night. A guest columnist made a case for Jerry Lawler being the true world champion (as AWA World Champion). The columnist talked about how Lawler faced all comers, travelled frequently to defend the title, etc. They talked about how he ventured to countless independent promotions to defend that belt.
A compelling case, I feel.
Even as a kid, I felt that "world champion" was a misnomer. I knew they were company champions. As a kid, I knew that the WCW World Champion would only defend against others in WCW - and that the likes of Hulk Hogan would only defend the WWF Championship against other WWF wrestlers. That I could see that during my youth proves that. But I suspended disbelief. And besides, even some real sports can be dubious. How many world heavyweight champions and alphabet groups are there in boxing?
However, I remember some questioning ECW's world title status in the late 90s. Yet, in my opinion, one could have argued that the ECW World Heavyweight Championship had more prestige than the WCW World Heavyweight Championship. ECW world champions were facing off against all comers (within ECW), but there were WCW PPVs where the WCW World Heavyweight Championship wasn't even on the line. There were PPVs where world champions like Hulk Hogan wrestled in non-title matches or tag team contests. From 1997-2000, I definitely would have made the case for the ECW World Heavyweight Championship being more prestigious than the WCW World Heavyweight Championship. The WCW World Heavyweight Championship was being defended throughout North America - and elsewhere when WCW could be bothered to tour - while the ECW World Heavyweight Championship was only being defended in the north-east United States. But it was more of a world title than WCW's (in my view).
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2020 6:10:39 GMT -5
King of the Ring 1995 aired 25 years ago today: I don't get the disdain for this PPV! It isn't as good as the 1993 and 1994 versions, but let me make some defence of it. Okay, firstly, wasn't happy with Mabel winning the tournament. I wanted Shawn Michaels to win. And I have to commend that 15-minute bout between Shawn Michaels and Kama. Kudos to both men. That had to be the match of the night. The tournament itself was rather underwhelming. Plus, Razor Ramon having to sit it out due to a rib injury was deeply frustrating. However, I enjoyed the PPV as a whole. Seeing Bret get a measure of revenge against Lawler was hugely entertaining. Their "Kiss My Foot" match made me laugh. Lawler had spent weeks making sure his feet were dirty, even stepping in horse manure at one point. When Bret shoved Lawler's foot into Lawler's mouth, well the king deserved humiliation after 2+ years of antagonising Bret, Bret's parents, etc. This was the heel getting exactly what he deserved. I quite enjoyed the main event pitting Diesel and Bam Bam Bigelow vs. Psycho Sid and Tatanka. Overall, not the WWF's best PPV, but I don't think it's as bad as people have made out.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 25, 2020 20:06:27 GMT -5
King of the Ring 1995 aired 25 years ago today: I don't get the disdain for this PPV! It isn't as good as the 1993 and 1994 versions, but let me make some defence of it. Okay, firstly, wasn't happy with Mabel winning the tournament. I wanted Shawn Michaels to win. And I have to commend that 15-minute bout between Shawn Michaels and Kama. Kudos to both men. That had to be the match of the night. The tournament itself was rather underwhelming. Plus, Razor Ramon having to sit it out due to a rib injury was deeply frustrating. However, I enjoyed the PPV as a whole. Seeing Bret get a measure of revenge against Lawler was hugely entertaining. Their "Kiss My Foot" match made me laugh. Lawler had spent weeks making sure his feet were dirty, even stepping in horse manure at one point. When Bret shoved Lawler's foot into Lawler's mouth, well the king deserved humiliation after 2+ years of antagonising Bret, Bret's parents, etc. This was the heel getting exactly what he deserved. I quite enjoyed the main event pitting Diesel and Bam Bam Bigelow vs. Psycho Sid and Tatanka. Overall, not the WWF's best PPV, but I don't think it's as bad as people have made out. You sure they aren't fighting for Jester? Oh, wait, that's an undercard match (Nash as champion is definitely undercard stuff. Nash, Sid, Bam Bam and Tatanka? Guess who had to work his butt off in that one.....
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2020 9:24:25 GMT -5
Erm, Sid? As time went on, I felt the tournament aspect of that PPV became less important. I mean, not that one expected Stone Cold Steve Austin to wear the crown, but he didn't take his place on the throne. Later KOTR PPVs became more about other matches and less about the crown. That's sad. Just my view, of course.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 27, 2020 14:34:39 GMT -5
Erm, Sid? As time went on, I felt the tournament aspect of that PPV became less important. I mean, not that one expected Stone Cold Steve Austin to wear the crown, but he didn't take his place on the throne. Later KOTR PPVs became more about other matches and less about the crown. That's sad. Just my view, of course. I think the crown and robe gimmick had run its course. The stepping stone idea wasn't a bad one and certainly worked for Austin. I know one person who hated the king gimmick and that was Harley Race. He was insulted by it, but the money was too good and Kansas City was dead.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2020 18:24:23 GMT -5
For me, the KOTR concept peaked with the 1995 event. Austin could just as easily have whooped Jake Roberts’ ass at WrestleMania or In Your House in order to get over (in my opinion). And Hunter Hearst Helmsley was ascending, did he really need to win the crown in 1997?
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 27, 2020 19:08:55 GMT -5
For me, the KOTR concept peaked with the 1995 event. Austin could just as easily have whooped Jake Roberts’ ass at WrestleMania or In Your House in order to get over (in my opinion). And Hunter Hearst Helmsley was ascending, did he really need to win the crown in 1997? It was his promised reward for accepting his punishment for the Madison Square Garden Curtain Call, when Hall & Nash left. They couldn't (or wouldn't) punish Shawn, so Hunter got depushed and jobbed ut for a while. To his credit, he sucked it up and waited and was rewarded for it. By that point, KOTR was established as setting up the main event for Wrestlemania. Personally, I always thought the booking was better when they had quarterly PPVs, as the buildup was stronger and led to more memorable events. When they added PPVs until they were monthly, they devalued them and booking became more short term (made worse by the Monday Night Wars). I had mostly checked out, during this time period, only occasionally watching WCW and rarely turning on the WWF, until about '96. I watched very little wrestling for most of 2-3 years. Then, I watched a ton of it, until WCW was in a nose dive and after the Invasion Angle was neutered.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2020 6:42:02 GMT -5
I do miss the storytelling that the WWF was known for during past eras.
I watched Paul Roma vs. The Warlord (1989) on the WWF Network. The match was about 5 minutes in length. Roma tried to match power with Warlord early on, but it proved futile. So he utilised a speed approach - and when the opportunity presented itself, he took to the air to try and get Warlord off his feet. In the end, Warlord’s power was too much - and he got the win via pinfall after a powerslam.
I love the logic of storytelling and painting a picture. Trying to utilise speed and an aerial attack after power moves have failed is entirely logical. You don’t need 100 moves in 2 minutes and lots of high spots. Roma’s approach made perfect sense.
I then watched Warlord vs. Tito Santana from SummerSlam ‘90 (can you tell I’m a Warlord fan?). Similar storytelling logic. Santana had to go to the air. He tried a flying forearm smash, which took Warlord down. But Warlord got his foot on the ropes, recovered and finished Santana off after a running powerslam.
None of these matched needed high spots, 300 moves, sledgehammers, etc. Just wrestling storytelling.
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Post by Batflunkie on Jun 28, 2020 20:19:14 GMT -5
How do you guys feel about OSW review?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2020 4:30:55 GMT -5
Never watched it. Don’t tend to listen to YouTube reviews of anything.
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