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Post by lordyam on Oct 20, 2019 22:05:08 GMT -5
Personally what I think is that Superman is going to choose a third option and persuade Manhattan to do the right thing essentially; in short it will start OUT as a brawl but Superman is going to choose another way. Johns has done a good job honoring the themes so far so I'm pretty sure that can be expected. I thought Batman and Rorschach were going to fight Ozymandias but instead Batman's running around trying to stop nukes from flying while Rorschach is wallowing in shame.
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Post by tingramretro on Dec 3, 2019 7:35:55 GMT -5
I've come to the conclusion that it's pointless trying to talk about Moore to superhero fans, or perhaps I should say people who see everything, and especially everything to do with comics, through the lens of their DC/Marvel worldview, in which everything is geared towards fan entitlement and their love of the shared superhero universes, etc. Anything that enhances that enjoyment is, in their eyes, automatically good, no matter what its repercussions and anything that fails to enhance it or even just speaks disparagingly of it, is automatically evil. Nothing else matters: right and wrong, logic, rationality, ethics - forget it. Sadly, very true. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2019 9:27:17 GMT -5
Obviously, everyone's mileage will vary, but I am enjoying it despite the delays. I will reread the whole thing once all 12 are finished. As a huge DC fan, I am extremely excited to see what the future holds post-Doomsday Clock. I'm enjoying it immensely. It's very profound. If Disney/Marvel buys DC in the next few weeks, the series should end with Doctor Manhattan, Dr Strange and Deadpool having a bizarre confrontation somewhere outside time and space. It would end with the DC and Marvel universes blown up - and EVERYTHING starting over with a new no. 1. but first? they need to go get Shawarma.
as to "Doomsday Clock"? - "DC" - HA!! I just got that.
have all the issues, but haven't read a single one of them yet, as I want to read it monthly, and I knew it wouldn't be shipping on time. Probably should have just trade waited, but wanted to support my Brick and Mortar comic shop, so bought it when the issues shipped. We shall see if the final issue actually ships at the end of Dec, and I can sit and read it this year still.
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Post by mikelmidnight on Dec 3, 2019 12:26:22 GMT -5
I read the first collection finally. A bit bloated and overwrought, and not a patch on Watchmen.
The core plot wasn't bad. If you chopped it down to three issues and titled it "Crisis on Earth 4" as one of the JLA/JSA annual crossovers I'd have liked it well enough.
I did think Ozymandias was treated badly though so I am consoled by the poster her who revealed there was more to come from the man in later issues. |
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Post by rberman on Dec 4, 2019 11:31:18 GMT -5
I'm enjoying it immensely. It's very profound. If Disney/Marvel buys DC in the next few weeks, the series should end with Doctor Manhattan, Dr Strange and Deadpool having a bizarre confrontation somewhere outside time and space. It would end with the DC and Marvel universes blown up - and EVERYTHING starting over with a new no. 1.
as to "Doomsday Clock"? - "DC" - HA!! I just got that.
Oh, I missed that too. Clever. I don't suppose Alan Moore had that in mind. |
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,201 
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Post by Confessor on Dec 4, 2019 12:29:40 GMT -5
OK, listen up!
I just had to go through this thread and delete 18 posts by various forum members that either broke the rules on civility and politness, or that quoted posts which broke the rules on civility and politness. This is the second time that the moderators have had to intervene in this thread because of general nastiness directed at others. Let's try to keep this thread on the topic of Doomsday Clock and its merits or lack thereof.
If you must discuss Alan Moore and his relationship with DC, please try to do it in a respectful way that doesn't insult or antagonise any folks here who may be fans of his. Likewise, insulting folks who are not fans of Alan Moore in retaliation is also not on.
If the mods have to step in a third time the thread will be locked.
Thank you.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Dec 13, 2019 0:44:42 GMT -5
Sat at the bookstore and read the hc of the first 6 issues.
That wasn't awful!
It's weird to read 100% pure fan-fiction from professional adults. Johns and Frank were trying so hard to ape Moore and Gibbons! I would never in a million years have guessed who wrote it if it wasn't on the cover. Geoff Johns style is very cinematic in the "modern blockbuster" way, not the "movies that are good" way, but there wasn't any of that here. Everything was very deliberately paced, the action set-pieces were low key and brutal... ok, there was some of that Geoff Johns hack 'n slashy violence, but I always figured he was copying that from Miracleman.
But on the other hand writing a third hand simplified imitation of Watchmen is an accomplishment. It's not an easy book to copy. Especially when the creators obviously don't have Moore's knowledge of history, literature, and philosophy.
I'm not sure it has a theme yet but I think it might in the future, and that would be a first for a Geoff Johns comic.
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Post by rberman on Dec 13, 2019 7:16:08 GMT -5
Sat at the bookstore and read the hc of the first 6 issues. That wasn't awful! It's weird to read 100% pure fan-fiction from professional adults. Johns and Frank were trying so hard to ape Moore and Gibbons! I would never in a million years have guessed who wrote it if it wasn't on the cover. Geoff Johns style is very cinematic in the "modern blockbuster" way, not the "movies that are good" way, but there wasn't any of that here. Everything was very deliberately paced, the action set-pieces were low key and brutal... ok, there was some of that Geoff Johns hack 'n slashy violence, but I always figured he was copying that from Miracleman. But on the other hand writing a third hand simplified imitation of Watchmen is an accomplishment. It's not an easy book to copy. Especially when the creators obviously don't have Moore's knowledge of history, literature, and philosophy. I'm not sure it has a theme yet but I think it might in the future, and that would be a first for a Geoff Johns comic. What do you think of Multiversity: Pax Americana, Grant Morrison's homage/spoof of Watchmen? |
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Dec 13, 2019 10:19:14 GMT -5
Didn't do anything for me at all. I liked Doomsday Clock quite a bit better. Multiversity overall didn't push any of my buttons, which is weird because I love (A) Grant Morrison and (B) Earth 2. Reading Doomsday Clock kinda hammered home how much of Watchmen is pacing and long term plotting so a 1 issue Watchmen retread just didn't have the page count to be anything more than a novelty.
My favorite parts were the interviews about the project where Morrison said "That was really, really hard to write."
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Post by mikelmidnight on Dec 13, 2019 14:25:06 GMT -5
I thought Multiversity: Pax Americana was a big larfe, although I viewed with disdain the most useless Blue Beetle counterpart ever.
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Post by lordyam on Dec 17, 2019 4:07:34 GMT -5
Dave Gibbons gave his impressions on both Doomsday Clock and the new show. www.geek.com/comics/dave-gibbons-shares-his-thoughts-on-hbos-watchmen-and-dcs-doomsday-clock-1807018/Overall it’s fair. He’s worked with both Geoff Johns and Gary Frank and Frank specifically asked if he’d be offended. Gibbons just doesn’t see the point and I think he argued his case fairly. Whatever one thinks about Geoff Johns he’s genuinely trying to respect the source material and one of the points he made is that good or not people DO misinterpret Watchmen or miss the point. Look at how many people fail to realize that no Rorschach is NOT someone you want to idolize, or that while Ozy might have good intentions they’re also mixed in with a LOT of narcissism (I think Ozy is convinced HE has to be mankind’s savior and not anyone else.) That’s why Reggie Long’s character works. Ozy gives him a BRUTAL lecture in Issue 7 about how Reggies parents died hating each other and how Walter Kovacs made that happen. I was cheering when I read that monologue if only because the people who worship Rorschach really are missing the point. For me Watchmen is....interesting. Ozymandias is a fantastic villain and Moore IS a fantastic writer regardless of what one thinks of the man himself. However the Nixon being president 5 times.....yeah that was just silly. Overturning a constitutional amendment is no easy feat and I think that’s one of the weaker elements in the world building. I also think that Ozy’s plan would collapse, and not even because the journal gets out. People are ALWAYS going to find something to disagree about (Dr Strangelove rather hilariously has the “mineshaft gap” at the end). Edit: Someone really should do a comparison of the show and doomsday clock if only for the fact it might be interesting |
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Post by mikelmidnight on Dec 17, 2019 12:39:32 GMT -5
I also think that Ozy’s plan would collapse, and not even because the journal gets out. People are ALWAYS going to find something to disagree about (Dr Strangelove rather hilariously has the “mineshaft gap” at the end).
I intensely disliked the movie, but had to admit its ending made more sense. The whole squid thing and resulting (albeit temporary) utopia made me cringe the first time I read it.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Dec 17, 2019 14:17:35 GMT -5
For me Watchmen is....interesting. Ozymandias is a fantastic villain and Moore IS a fantastic writer regardless of what one thinks of the man himself. However the Nixon being president 5 times.....yeah that was just silly. Yeah, the slight changes to presidential term limits totally ruined my suspension of disbelief. Made it hard to enjoy the giant radioactive guy that got magic God powers for no reason.  Wow, I'm reading around and this is getting reviews that are (A) Glowingly positive, and (B) completely fanciful, inaccurate, or just lots of cases of people rating it highly because it feels like it is important to DC continuity rather than because it's good on it's own. There are a lot of people trying desperately to find good things to say about Doomsday Clock. "As layered as the original" says ComicBeat which is, frankly, hilarious. The reviews are right about the coloring, though. The coloring is on point. Or maybe the reviewers are young enough they're comparing it to the movie? Or is DC just bad enough right now that a B- like this is seen as a company-reviving breath of fresh air? I really miss the (print) Comics Journal. I like having mainstream reviews outside of the "THe success of one particular corporation reflects on my personal self worth" IP fanboy crowd. "GO NIKE BRAND SHOES!! GO FORD BRAND TRUCKS!! GO DC BRAND COMIC BOOK ENTERTAINMENT AND TOOTHBRUSH HOLDERS!" |
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Post by lordyam on Dec 17, 2019 16:38:21 GMT -5
It's not as good as the original but on it's own merits it's at least a 7 out of 10. The old characters are in character (I mentioned how Ozy literally brings the entire DC community to its knees while barely lifting a finger) and the newer ones have depth and relatability (Reggie is a very tragic and multifaceted character and Carver Coleman is also a surprisingly sad character for a guy who only appears in one issue).
There are some pacing problems but on its own merits it's fairly enjoyable and Johns DOES actually understand the themes (even his point about Watchmen making comics darker was more "people blatantly missed the point and tried copying what they THOUGHT Watchmen was without really understanding it.) I think that even if you think a sequel is unnecessary people can agree that a lot of people missed the point.
It also helps that the only time Johns REALLY got on his soapbox it was to make a point that even people who hate the sequel can agree with (namely that Rorschach was %$*^ing insane and you're not supposed to idolize him). I was CHEERING when Ozy deconstructs Rorschach if only because it's oh so true.
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Post by berkley on Dec 17, 2019 21:17:08 GMT -5
Forgetting all about the dispute between Moore and DC and whether the creators involved should have lent themselves to such a project at all, my feelings about the idea of Geoff Johns, or pretty much any other contemporary superhero writer, producing a sequel to Watchmen are much the same as they'd be if were told that, I dunno, John Grisham or someone was writing a sequel to Crime and Punishment: no matter how sincere and respectful Mr. Grisham' intentions might be, the whole idea would be laughable. But I'm sure his many fans would enjoy it, probably much more than they would Dostoevsky's novel.
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