|
Post by Icctrombone on Sept 12, 2019 7:47:42 GMT -5
(Unless, I just realized, this Avengers team-up was written up to be the occasion on which they decided to form the team. I don't remember the issue clearly enough, but if that was the case, then yeah, "first retcon appearance" sounds right. I still think "first prototype appearance" has some justification in this case, as well.) Nope. The events of Avengers #71/Invaders Annual #1 occur between Invaders #16 and 17, so the team was already established.
Cei-U! I summon my handy-dandy Invaders index!
I always thought those All Winner stories were the Invaders.
|
|
|
Post by Cei-U! on Sept 12, 2019 9:41:00 GMT -5
Nope. The events of Avengers #71/Invaders Annual #1 occur between Invaders #16 and 17, so the team was already established.
Cei-U! I summon my handy-dandy Invaders index!
I always thought those All Winner stories were the Invaders. That team was called the All-Winners Squad. According to What If? #3, the AWS was what the Invaders evolved into after the war, but the Invaders name was never used during the Golden Age.
Cei-U! Okay, Axis, here we come!
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2019 11:07:27 GMT -5
I have been reading this thread and I'm not in trivial mode and I simply careless when was the first of everything ... first cover appearance, origin story, and anything you can think of. This is a fascinating subject matter that pinkfloydsound17 put together and I applaud him for this alone. It a great topic and I just having a hard time visually the first appearance of anything because some superheroes do have multiple titles to deal with and all that. I don't pay attention to this even as a young kid back in the 1960's. It's all open to debate and I'm not willing to debate it at all.
|
|
|
Post by MDG on Sept 12, 2019 11:59:48 GMT -5
An update, if I may... After a day of reading and pondering further, I feel my initial musings were a good start but I was not happy with it. I posted because I know people here know more than me and having heard a lot here (and on other sites) I have decided to revise my definitions. So let me try this again... How 'bout things like "First Silver Age Appearance"?
|
|
|
Post by Icctrombone on Sept 12, 2019 13:15:29 GMT -5
In my opinion, the first appearance is when an actual character is in an actual story and are named by name. During the 90's Valiant had many books explode in value because upcoming heroes were in the background of a panel in another book. I think Shadowman and Dr. Mirage had such appearances. They weren't part of a story, they were just passing by. The inflation in price was temporary, as was the popularity of Valiant.
|
|
|
Post by Icctrombone on Sept 12, 2019 13:16:21 GMT -5
An update, if I may... After a day of reading and pondering further, I feel my initial musings were a good start but I was not happy with it. I posted because I know people here know more than me and having heard a lot here (and on other sites) I have decided to revise my definitions. So let me try this again... How 'bout things like "First Silver Age Appearance"? Avengers # 4 is a key book for that very reason.
|
|
|
Post by MWGallaher on Sept 12, 2019 13:49:33 GMT -5
So in the "First Silver Age Appearance", what terminology is appropriate for things like Strange Tales #114, which had a Captain America impersonator featured, prior to the genuine Captain America's return in Avengers #4? Or similarly, for Robby Reed's becoming Plastic Man in House of Mystery #160 prior to the real Plas (or, actually the son of the real Plas) returning in his own DC title? They don't match any of pinkfloydsound17's definitions so far as I figure, but are relevant as "trial balloons" for the reintroductions of those characters. Those are the only two examples of this sort of "First Silver Age Appearance" I can think of; did any of the Archie characters appear dressed as MLJ superheroes prior to their official return in the 60's?
|
|
|
Post by electricmastro on Sept 12, 2019 18:02:31 GMT -5
Nope. The events of Avengers #71/Invaders Annual #1 occur between Invaders #16 and 17, so the team was already established. Cei-U! I summon my handy-dandy Invaders index!
I always thought those All Winner stories were the Invaders. Nah, not quite.
|
|
|
Post by chaykinstevens on Sept 14, 2019 7:22:46 GMT -5
Ad Appearances
It is advertizing a character to Taracter. To whom? First Full Appearance
Character appears in full throughout the story. They can be found on more than 5 panels in the story. So does the character need to appear throughout the story or just in 6 or more panels?
Prototype Appearance
This case can also be applied to the Teen Titans. Brave & Bold is a first prototype appearance for the Teen Titans...the original team we know and recognize does not start until issue #60. I think that should say Brave & Bold #54 is a first prototype appearance.
|
|
|
Post by pinkfloydsound17 on Sept 15, 2019 13:56:00 GMT -5
I agree with what is being said about Brave and Bold #54
If the Teen Titans include Wonder Girl as the original basis for the team, appearances without her should be prototypes. Didn't Dr. Strange and Hulk (or Hulk and Namor) team up prior to Marvel Feature 1? Would that make these other appearances the "first Defenders?" No. But since it was so soon after and seems like the writers on B&B were trying to develop something, B&B #54 is fine being called a prototype because they are trying to develop something.
|
|
|
Post by Reptisaurus! on Sept 15, 2019 19:48:38 GMT -5
I agree with what is being said about Brave and Bold #54 If the Teen Titans include Wonder Girl as the original basis for the team, appearances without her should be prototypes. Sure, but why would they? She only sort of existed as her own character before Brave and the Bold # 60 - Certainly she wasn't "Donna Troy" yet. She wasn't completely established as a separate-from-Wonder-Woman character 'tiil Teen Titans # 22.* The membership and the name aren't finalized in their first appearance, but the everything about the concept for the series is established in B&B 54. Then again people who worry about first appearances probably don't read many comics (IT'S A CGI 8.7! I CAN'T OPEN THE CASE!!!!!) so they're probably not concerned with things like "plot" "editorial style" "theme" storytelling structure" or "authorial continuity." So for the audience who is really concerned about first appearances, B&B 60 might be easier for them to wrap their brains around, because it has the name Teen Titans on the cover. * I'm basically with Shaxper on Wonder Girl, and I don't think she has a first appearance per-se. There's just a spectrum that starts with "Definitely a Younger Version of Wonder Woman" and ends in Teen Titans 22 as "Definitely her own character with her own origin and name." But I don't think you can absolutely point to a first appearance. It's probably before Brave and the Bold # 60... Maybe the first time WG teamed with WW and it wasn't specifically labelled and imaginary story. Although at that point you would assume the audience was familiar enough with the character to remember she was a younger version of WW.
|
|
|
Post by chaykinstevens on Sept 22, 2019 15:49:19 GMT -5
Darkseid's second appearance was in Jimmy Olsen #135. Thanks! It’s a panel or so only too though right? So it’s second appearance and the Forever People is third appearance, first full. Yes, he was only in two panels in JO #135, and (I think) seven in FP #1.
|
|
|
Post by electricmastro on Sept 25, 2019 19:13:42 GMT -5
Also of note is New Mutants #98, which introduces Domino on the cover, but later turns out to be an impersonation by Copycat.
|
|
|
Post by pinkfloydsound17 on Sept 26, 2019 16:42:50 GMT -5
^ Good call! I’m not sure how you say that. Pretty sure it’s the only first appearance of a character who is not actually a character but does exist and does have an actual reveal later.
Perhaps this works? First appearance of Domino (later revealed to be Copycat). Then her actual first can be a first full appearance. Same for labeling for Copycat.
Thankfully this issue had some other character people seem to care more about so it might be a moot point for the value of the book.
|
|
|
Post by badwolf on Sept 26, 2019 17:26:48 GMT -5
Jeez, could you at least warn us before you post a cover that bad??
|
|