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Post by electricmastro on May 3, 2020 13:47:58 GMT -5
There’s debate as to whether Jimmy Olsen’s first comic appearance is either Action Comics #6 (November, 1938): or Superman #13 (November, 1941): I think more people would point to the latter on the basis of Clark saying Jimmy’s name, though I wouldn’t rule out the possibility that the office-boy in the former was drawn with the intention of being Jimmy.
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Post by chadwilliam on May 3, 2020 14:51:30 GMT -5
Was the "inquisitive office-boy" such a prevalent trope at this time (or even a genuine position) that any series without one popping up in a newspaper office would have felt somehow incomplete? In other words, if you wanted to make The Daily Star seem believable, you'd have to occasionally establish that in addition to star reporters Clark Kent and Lois Lane, it also housed gossip columnists, sport writers, advice columnists, etc. Would having a young, snooping, eager kid have been recognized by audiences as 1938 as something that would help complete that illusion? It still seems odd to me that a ten year old kid would even be able to get into such a building never mind have a job even if it amounted to nothing more than carrying out menial tasks and for that reason, it would seem as if Siegel and Shuster had something, if not unique, than unusual. In that case, it would seem that that blond haired kid in Action #6 wasn't intended to be a toss away character and in fact, there's actually a red-haired kid with a bow-tie in Action #10 who looks looks more like Jimmy than the kid in Action #6 or Superman #13.
It's also been stated that Jimmy Olsen was created for the radio program and I guess you'd have to know where they got the idea for the character from. Was he introduced independently of the comic or was this "inquisitive office-boy" offered to the show in a sort of "well, we've also got this kid we haven't done much with in the comics yet, you might want to use..." kind of way?
Even if that kid in Action #6 wasn't meant to be of any importance, why does Siegel and Nowak's Jimmy look so much like Siegel and Shuster's kid? Were they trying to retroactively establish that Jimmy predated the radio show for some reason or was Siegel genuinely trying to do something with this kid he had plans for but had brushed to the side?
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Post by Prince Hal on May 3, 2020 21:02:10 GMT -5
Was the "inquisitive office-boy" such a prevalent trope at this time (or even a genuine position) that any series without one popping up in a newspaper office would have felt somehow incomplete? In other words, if you wanted to make The Daily Star seem believable, you'd have to occasionally establish that in addition to star reporters Clark Kent and Lois Lane, it also housed gossip columnists, sport writers, advice columnists, etc. Would having a young, snooping, eager kid have been recognized by audiences as 1938 as something that would help complete that illusion? It still seems odd to me that a ten year old kid would even be able to get into such a building never mind have a job even if it amounted to nothing more than carrying out menial tasks and for that reason, it would seem as if Siegel and Shuster had something, if not unique, than unusual. In that case, it would seem that that blond haired kid in Action #6 wasn't intended to be a toss away character and in fact, there's actually a red-haired kid with a bow-tie in Action #10 who looks looks more like Jimmy than the kid in Action #6 or Superman #13. It's also been stated that Jimmy Olsen was created for the radio program and I guess you'd have to know where they got the idea for the character from. Was he introduced independently of the comic or was this "inquisitive office-boy" offered to the show in a sort of "well, we've also got this kid we haven't done much with in the comics yet, you might want to use..." kind of way? Even if that kid in Action #6 wasn't meant to be of any importance, why does Siegel and Nowak's Jimmy look so much like Siegel and Shuster's kid? Were they trying to retroactively establish that Jimmy predated the radio show for some reason or was Siegel genuinely trying to do something with this kid he had plans for but had brushed to the side? 1. I'd say yes based on the movies, radio shows, comic strips, and serials of those years. A juvenile supporting character may not have been de rigueur, but it was a commonplace. 2. The kid looks older than 10 to me, but lots of youngish kids had jobs like this during the Depression. 3. The bow tie is an interesting coincidence at the very least. 4. I think it's a stretch to think that the creators of the radio show pored over old issues of Action for inspiration, especially when the notion of a hero's having a young sidekick was a way to be sure the kiddies had someone to identify themselves with. Junior had been in the Dick Tracy strip since 1932, and I wouldn't be surprised if he weren't as much an influence on the inclusion of Jimmy as any other character. Robin showed up just weeks after Superman's radio show started; Bucky was part of the Captain America story right from Jump Street; and Billy Batson and Captain Marvel showed up in late 1939.
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Post by wildfire2099 on May 3, 2020 21:26:51 GMT -5
There's also the fact that 'Jimmy' was an ubiquitous name at the time... there's not reason that that blond Jimmy could ahve been a different Jimmy than Jimmy Olsen, who hair and freckles are pretty defining characteristics later and not present.
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Post by chadwilliam on May 4, 2020 20:38:18 GMT -5
Given the fact that Jimmy Olsen was first named in Superman #15 and that the 'Jimmy' in Superman #13 shares not only a first name with that character but an enthusiasm for becoming a reporter, a willingness to risk his life for a story, is a fan of Clark Kent, and even earns his first byline by story's end, the 'Jimmy' in Superman #13 has to be the real thing.
Regarding the office-boy in Action #6, I think a statute of limitations should apply between appearances if you're looking to claim continuity between two characters. Had he shown up a couple of months prior to Superman #13, I think it'd be clear that Siegel is looking to develop this character into something more, but a gap of three years? That sounds more like Siegel coming up with the same idea twice. I do think the kid in Action #6 deserves a proto-Jimmy Olsen credit though.
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Post by electricmastro on May 4, 2020 20:44:32 GMT -5
Also a point of contention is in regards to if Archie Goodwin and Howard Chaykin created the character of Harvey Bullock for Detective Comics #441 (June, 1974): and that Doug Moench and Don Newton later further developed the character for Batman #361 (July, 1983): or if Doug Moench and Don Newton created a new character entirely.
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Post by Prince Hal on May 4, 2020 21:01:52 GMT -5
electricmastro, maybe when Bullock was suspended he was busted from lieutenant to whatever he is now? But in that one panel in the Chaykin story, Lt. Bullock seems taken aback by Batman's commanding presence; the later "Harvey" Bullock didn't seem the type who would act that way, even with Batman. And couldn't there be two Bullocks in the GCPD? It's a big department, after all. Or could the earlier one have been the do-good brother to Harvey's black sheep?
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Post by electricmastro on May 4, 2020 21:53:05 GMT -5
electricmastro , maybe when Bullock was suspended he was busted from lieutenant to whatever he is now? But in that one panel in the Chaykin story, Lt. Bullock seems taken aback by Batman's commanding presence; the later "Harvey" Bullock didn't seem the type who would act that way, even with Batman. And couldn't there be two Bullocks in the GCPD? It's a big department, after all. Or could the earlier one have been the do-good brother to Harvey's black sheep? It’s interesting, because on this page, Archie Goodwin wrote the 1974 Bullock as someone who seems confident in arrogantly dismissing Commissioner Gordon and standing up for himself, something which the 1983 Bullock seems to share:
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Post by electricmastro on May 6, 2020 21:02:35 GMT -5
Alfred Pennyworth’s first appearance is usually given as Batman #16 (May, 1943): Though his name was Alfred Beagle, so I’m uncertain if he later changed his last name to Pennyworth, along with his appearance, or is just an Earth-Two counterpart to Alfred Pennyworth from Earth-One, as Pennyworth’s first Earth-One appearance is given as Batman #92 (June, 1955) by virtue of Ace the Bat-Hound having no Earth-Two counterpart:
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Post by The Cheat on May 7, 2020 13:43:30 GMT -5
Fairly sure they were different people. I remember them meeting once due to some time/dimension-travel shenanigans (one of the Zero Hour tie-ins maybe?)
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Post by chadwilliam on May 7, 2020 16:32:38 GMT -5
I don't think it's a good idea to pay any attention to Earth 1/Earth 2 designations for Superman and Batman characters since it pretty brazenly contradicts the original stories and intent of those creators. Certainly, no one in 1955/56 was intending to be told that their Batman wasn't the same guy he had been just a few years prior simply because in 1961 the concept of Earth 1 and Earth 2 would be introduced to explain the existence of two Flashes and invalidating all those Golden Age stories where Superman worked for The Daily Planet under Perry White and fought against a bald headed Luthor in favour of the relatively few stories where he worked for The Star and fought a red-haired Luthor really doesn't make much sense. I mean, if Marvel decides today to announce that going forward the first ten years of Spider-Man stories were just a dream, does that automatically make Amazing Spider-Man #110 his new first appearance?
Besides, if every contradiction you can find means there exists an alternate version of a certain character, then there should have been about 130 different Supermen and Batmen by the time 1961 rolled around. I think the simplest explanation - that by 1969, DC had forgotten that Alfred was once named Alfred Beagle and so came up with Pennyworth - is the best one.
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Post by electricmastro on May 7, 2020 21:29:16 GMT -5
I don’t think there’s any invalidation intended since comics are an ever growing medium and that the multiple Earths are what DC has chosen to go with, confusing or not, and that I go along with it regardless as opposed to going against the wave.
Anyway, the various comics suggested as Venom’s first appearance:
The Amazing Spider-Man #252 (May, 1984)
Secret Wars #8 (December, 1984)
Web of Spider-Man #18 (September, 1986)
The Amazing Spider-Man #298 (March, 1988)
The Amazing Spider-Man #299 (April, 1988)
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