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Post by Action Ace on Apr 2, 2016 19:51:46 GMT -5
Stupider than Calendar Man or Crazy Quilt? Never. Well, if you're talking about Calendar Man as written by Jeph Loeb, then I agree with you. As for Crazy Quilt, I thought he was very chilling when he almost beat Jason Todd to death long before it was fashionable. The "best" Robin villain has to be the Parking Lot Bandit. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Apr 4, 2016 20:15:23 GMT -5
I just re-read the issue and wow - you're absolutely right about Calvino's ability being some sort of super power. Man, I bought this when it came out, must have re-read it a couple dozen times at least since then, and that bit - so central to the character - slipped my notice. Not that I missed all the anecdotes about "once talking a victim into holding his knife for him while he used the john and then killed him"; needing to be kept in a "soundproof box"; Gordon's statement that he's "supernaturally persuasive"; it's just that if I let myself accept the fact that Stiletto has some such ability (and isn't simply the "world's nicest killer" as the story put it) then things fall apart for me. I had read this as a story in which a crime fighter who has sworn to never willingly take a human life has to consider the moral ambiguity inherent in turning a killer (who only kills criminals) over so that he can be executed. Calvino is also given a moment where he saves Batman's life. There are several moments where Batman thinks about how close he is to setting Calvino free and how relieved he is that Stiletto's ability to speak has been inferred with for whatever reason (namely when they're submerged underwater). Now this is where things go south for me. If Batman is on the verge of letting Calvino go because the killer is forcing him to confront certain truths Batman had either ignored or put in the back of his mind before, then that's compelling. If however (as is the case) Calvino simply possesses a sort of super-hypnosis which Batman has to fight against, then where is the internal conflict on Batman's part? He isn't thinking to himself "I've sworn to uphold the law, but how can I when doing so conflicts with my principles" but "don't fall under his spell don't fall under his spell don't fall under his..." instead. So why bother having Batman owe his life to Calvino, being sympathetic to his situation, etc. if it isn't on the merits of these considerations that Batman's preparing his defense? I do admit that there was clearly an idea/intent here that Milligan never quite finished. I suspect the purpose may have been that Stiletto's ability gives Batman an easy out at the close instead of facing the real doubts about his idea of justice that were raised in the story. I suspect that, at the end, Milligan wanted us to judge Bruce and see him as someone desperately clinging to a belief that cannot survive being challenged. Or maybe I'm bringing too much of myself to the story. Whatever the case, it isn't resolved properly in the story and, thus, the supernatural ability comes off as a bit of a pointless disruption to the inner conflict, although it's still an awesome idea for a villain that I'd love to see resurrected. I don't think Batman did fight Stiletto. It's just possible that, up until they began drowning, and then again after, Stiletto was in control and steering Batman towards what he wanted. In the end, Batman ends up delivering him to authorities who are easily persuaded by him while Batman goes home and forgets about the entire incident until Two-Tone's death jogs his memory. Normally, I'd think he'd deliver the villain to the prison himself, ensure that they had proper plan to contain him, and then check up on him regularly. This never troubled me. I took it on faith that he was clever enough to find a way to make this situation happen, but I understand it bothering you. Yes, I enjoyed that. Just a visual reminder that Batman had met his match. Clearly, this story had flaws. I still thoroughly enjoyed it up until the lousy resolution. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on May 1, 2016 21:17:58 GMT -5
A Question To All of You...
So I've decided I think I need to drop Legends of the Dark Knight from this review thread at this point. It's not just how bad Venom is; it's that this third largely out-of-continuity title is really slowing down the pace of this thread, both because it's taking longer to get through the other two core titles and because the tone is so drastically different, making it jarring for me to run through three or four reviews in a straight shot. This thread has been languishing since I started LotDK, so I think it's time for it to go.
So the question to all of you is which LotDK storylines I still need to be sure to include, either because they are awesome or because some aspect of them proves historically important in the long term. Take Venom for example, which is terrible, but which introduces the drug that will later power Bane.
Looking through the first 75 issues (which are the ones I own), here are the ones that seem like they MIGHT be worth reading. Really, I'm not looking for decent reads -- I want to know the stuff that I can't possibly afford to skip:
Faith, by Mike W. Barr (only because it might connect back to his earlier run?)
Destroyer by O'Neil (only because Denny tends to make sure his own stuff sticks around in continuity)
Faces by Matt Wagner (cuz it's Matt Wagner)
Legends of the Dark Might, by Alan Grant (cuz it might align with Grant's run on Batman)
Heat, by Doug Moench (who am I kidding? I'm keeping and reading any Moench Batman story no matter what)
Images, by O'Neil (only because Denny tends to make sure his own stuff sticks around in continuity)
Tao, by Alan Grant (cuz it might align with Grant's run on Batman)
Sanctum, by Raspler and Mignola (cuz it's Mignola)
Watchtower, by Dixon (might align with Dixon's work on the franchise)
Quarry, by O'Neil (Knightquest tie-in)
Devils, by Dixon (Knightsend tie-in)
Going Sane, by DeMatteis (just because I love his writing and don't want to give up a story that ends up being a gem)
So what's ESSENTIAL of these or of any other LotDK storyline I may have skipped?
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Post by Hoosier X on May 1, 2016 21:38:08 GMT -5
I'm not sure any of it's essential.
I've only read a handful of LOTDK arcs over the years. I loved Flyer for the Gil Kane art. And Matt Wagner's Faces has really great art, but it's a pretty average Two-Face story.
I've never felt like I was missing much by pretty much ignoring LOTDK.
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Post by Action Ace on May 1, 2016 22:39:00 GMT -5
I'd keep Venom because it's the best arc of the entire series.  If continuity is important, then you need to finish up Venom because it is part of the origin of Bane. I would recommend that if it's an arc off by itself like these have been, just do one review of the whole arc. You might need to do that for upcoming mini series as well. Robin II #1 gets a full write up of the mini series and then add little posts when #2, #3 and #4 come out in their correct chronological spots redirecting back to the review. That might speed it up a little. Faith caused a bit of a ruckus because of who showed up at the end. Flyer was enjoyable and had Gil Kane art. Destroyer goes across Batman, Detective and LODK, so you can't skip that issue. The next time there is a LODK crossover is 1994 when the Annual ties in for Bloodlines and the book gets absorbed into the entire Knight Fall/ Quest/ Takes Pawn era. This line is about to explode in size: a third monthly in continuity title, more Robin mini series, more Batman mini series like Gotham Nights, things Batman related you never saw coming and a comic for the awesome animated series. Bring a lunch. |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on May 1, 2016 22:51:44 GMT -5
I'd keep Venom because it's the best arc of the entire series. If continuity is important, then you need to finish up Venom because it is part of the origin of Bane. I would recommend that if it's an arc off by itself like these have been, just do one review of the whole arc. You might need to do that for upcoming mini series as well. Robin II #1 gets a full write up of the mini series and then add little posts when #2, #3 and #4 come out in their correct chronological spots redirecting back to the review. That might speed it up a little. Faith caused a bit of a ruckus because of who showed up at the end. Flyer was enjoyable and had Gil Kane art. Destroyer goes across Batman, Detective and LODK, so you can't skip that issue. The next time there is a LODK crossover is 1994 when the Annual ties in for Bloodlines and the book gets absorbed into the entire Knight Fall/ Quest/ Takes Pawn era. This line is about to explode in size: a third monthly in continuity title, more Robin mini series, more Batman mini series like Gotham Nights, things Batman related you never saw coming and a comic for the awesome animated series. Bring a lunch. The only good thing I can say about Venom is that it's not quite as awful as Gothic. |
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Post by foxley on May 2, 2016 3:06:35 GMT -5
As already noted "Destroyer" is part of a story that ran through all of the Bat-books, as are "Quarry" and "Devils", so they probably count as essential (in order to get the full story).
None of the rest are 'essential' in that sense. Having said that:
"Flyer" (which is not on your list) is a sequel to "Year One" written and illustrated by Gil kane (with script by Howard Chaykin).
"Faces", as Hoosier X has already noted, has exquisite art on an otherwise average Two-Face story.
"Blades" (again not on your list) was a decent story set in Batman's early days where he encounters another vigilante called the Cavalier (not the Mortimer Drake character).
"legends of the Dark Mite" is hilarious. Not essential, but it is Grant indulging in the kind of surreal story he does so well.
"Heat" is a follow-up to "Prey". Not quite up to the standard of "Prey", but still very good. As with the Cavalier story above, the Catman in this story is not Thomas Blake.
"Images" is re-telling of the first meeting of Batman and Joker in post-Crisis continuity. Probably worth it for getting O'Neil's take on things.
"Sanctum" has great Mignola art. I can't recall the story at all.
"Watchtower" is a decent Dixon story, but I'm not a fan of Macmahon's art.
"Climax" is also part of the Knightsend event, so you'll probably want to read it as well.
"Going Sane" is an absolute gem that deserves to be better known.
Although "Faith" is by Barr (and I'm a huge Barr fan) it doesn't feel much like his early Bat-work. Decent enough, but skippable.
Avoid "Tao". Dull story and awful art.
Just my 2 cents worth, of course.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on May 2, 2016 8:33:26 GMT -5
This is all very helpful, folks. If continuity is important, then you need to finish up Venom because it is part of the origin of Bane. . Is there more vital info coming in the final two chapters, or are you just suggesting I finish what I started? Yes, the line is going to continue to explode. For the sake of my sanity (as well as my wallet and living space) I'm going to have to make some tough decisions about what to include and what to leave out. There is far too much Batman being produced, and far too little of it really matters in the long term. I'll need the help of everyone here to guide me in regard to what non-Batman/Detective stories matter, and what non-Batman/Detective stories don't. |
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Post by thwhtguardian on May 2, 2016 8:44:10 GMT -5
Sanctum is a must...I mean it doesn't connect to any story in Batman or Detective but it's only one issue and it's seriously one of my favorite Batman stories of all time.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on May 2, 2016 9:10:48 GMT -5
I can't add much in the way of continuity, but just in the fact that LOTDK is my favorite title of Batman. :-) I like that most of the stories were out of continuity and could read and stand on the writer and artist's own merit rather than the history of the character. I am going to try to be active here shaxper, and you including or excluding won't change my efforts, but I do like those stories a lot. At least up till where I stopped buying books at that time, but that's way into the future of this review thread if you include them.
As far as directly linking to Batman continuity, the only ones I can think of where Knightsend/quest and I think some No Man's Land? I never read No Man's Land in its entirety though, so I may be remembering wrong.
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Post by chadwilliam on May 2, 2016 11:42:29 GMT -5
A Question To All of You...So I've decided I think I need to drop Legends of the Dark Knight from this review thread at this point. It's not just how bad Venom is; it's that this third largely out-of-continuity title is really slowing down the pace of this thread, both because it's taking longer to get through the other two core titles and because the tone is so drastically different, making it jarring for me to run through three or four reviews in a straight shot. This thread has been languishing since I started LotDK, so I think it's time for it to go. So the question to all of you is which LotDK storylines I still need to be sure to include, either because they are awesome or because some aspect of them proves historically important in the long term. Take Venom for example, which is terrible, but which introduces the drug that will later power Bane. Looking through the first 75 issues (which are the ones I own), here are the ones that seem like they MIGHT be worth reading. Really, I'm not looking for decent reads -- I want to know the stuff that I can't possibly afford to skip: Faith, by Mike W. Barr (only because it might connect back to his earlier run?) Destroyer by O'Neil (only because Denny tends to make sure his own stuff sticks around in continuity) Faces by Matt Wagner (cuz it's Matt Wagner) Legends of the Dark Might, by Alan Grant (cuz it might align with Grant's run on Batman) Heat, by Doug Moench (who am I kidding? I'm keeping and reading any Moench Batman story no matter what) Images, by O'Neil (only because Denny tends to make sure his own stuff sticks around in continuity) Tao, by Alan Grant (cuz it might align with Grant's run on Batman) Sanctum, by Raspler and Mignola (cuz it's Mignola) Watchtower, by Dixon (might align with Dixon's work on the franchise) Quarry, by O'Neil (Knightquest tie-in) Devils, by Dixon (Knightsend tie-in) Going Sane, by DeMatteis (just because I love his writing and don't want to give up a story that ends up being a gem) So what's ESSENTIAL of these or of any other LotDK storyline I may have skipped?
I'd have to say that Faith (21-23) is essential if you feel that Batman's relationship with Leslie Thompkins is essential. We've already seen how Bruce Wayne's interaction with her began - Faith reveals how Batman entered into the mix. I also regard it as a pretty good story and it is a three-parter as opposed to the more unwieldly (for threads such as these) five-parters.
Flyer (24-26) probably isn't essential. It does tie in with Year One in that it addresses what nasty impact having an army of bats flying through the darkened sky of Gotham might have on a guy trying to navigate a helicopter when Batman decides to summon them in Batman 405, but beyond that - Batman's the only character who'll make a return after this one. I remember there being a bit of controversy over the ending of issue 24 where Batman is being held captive by a woman who intends to rape him if he won't impregnate her willingly.
Issue 27 (Destroyer) is part of a three issue storyline crossing over with Batman and Tec so it's as relevant to either of those issues. If I recall correctly, it was a story which came about so that Gotham would have a reason for looking as messed up as it does.
Faces (28-30) is a Two-Face tale. I don't think it's really essential. I'm going by memory here but I think it might take place after Batman Annual 14 which would have been his new post-Crisis origin. If you were building a Two-Face chronology, I think you'd have to include it, but it's up to you.
Family (31) I remember liking this story but again, no relevance to continuity. Basically, Alfred is kidnapped and Batman has to rescue him. Could have been told at really any point in Batman's career in any of the titles.
Blades (32-34) The Cavalier in this one isn't Mortimer Drake but a swashbuckling good guy. It's interesting to see how Batman treats another crime fighter in Gotham (though Faith touches on a similar theme) and I like that Batman decides to give him a chance simply because he reminds him of his boyhood idol Zorro (it's one of those rare moments where Batman makes a decision on sentiment rather than cold hard logic). One of the better regarded LOTDK stories but non-essential. The Cavalier nor the bad guy (Mr Lime) make return appearances.
Destiny (35-36) not essential and one of the stories I didn't understand or take much interest in when it came out, but that I was pleasantly surprised by when I read it years later. Something about Batman learning of a Viking Bat-Man from centuries ago.
Mercy (37) Batman takes on a partner of sorts - a female police officer who wants to be more like him. Not essential/not referred to again/not bad.
Bat-Mite (38) I'd say you kind of have to review this as it marks Bat-Mite's first appearance in post-Crisis continuity. It isn't as if he started showing up in the regular titles and he only made one or two other appearances after this story (in a take-off of KnightFall and maybe in a ten-part Superman/Batman maxi-series from about 1999) but Bat-Mite is a significant part of Batman's history and hey - here he is in an updated take.
Mask (39-40) One of those 'Am I Really Batman' stories that are almost always great. This one was pretty fun but not essential. I think you do learn something about Batman's parents. Again, I'm going by memory here but there's a moment where a song is playing on a radio and Bruce pleads with someone to switch it off because... it played the night his parents were killed or it reminds him of them for some reason? Can't remember.
Sunset (41) Don't remember this one too well. Can't imagine it's essential.
Hothouse (42-43) OK I think I stopped collecting this title around this time because I don't recall it very clearly. It is a Poison Ivy tale and may be her first interaction with Batman post-Crisis outside of the free 16 page comic that came with one of the Batman/Tec issues in 1988 or so. No idea on this one.
Turf (44-45) Very little memory of this one either.
Hothouse (46-49) Non-essential and probably outside of regular continuity as the Catman here isn't Thomas Blake but some serial killer. Don't remember it being very good.
Images (50) Ugh. Yeah, I guess you kind of have to review this one as it is chronologically the Joker's first encounter with Batman post-Crisis but it's pretty bad. A watered down version of the tale in Batman 1 with none of the style, atmosphere, or great moments of the original. Continuity points - We learn that the Joker doesn't come up with his own toxins but has his cousin do it for him and that the Joker's real name starts with the letters 'J' and 'A'.
I'll stop here since by issue 50 I wasn't following the title that much anymore.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on May 2, 2016 11:46:35 GMT -5
the free 16 page comic that came with one of the Batman/Tec issues in 1988 or so. First I've heard of this. More info? |
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Post by Action Ace on May 2, 2016 18:36:04 GMT -5
This is all very helpful, folks. If continuity is important, then you need to finish up Venom because it is part of the origin of Bane. . Is there more vital info coming in the final two chapters, or are you just suggesting I finish what I started? Yes, the line is going to continue to explode. For the sake of my sanity (as well as my wallet and living space) I'm going to have to make some tough decisions about what to include and what to leave out. There is far too much Batman being produced, and far too little of it really matters in the long term. I'll need the help of everyone here to guide me in regard to what non-Batman/Detective stories matter, and what non-Batman/Detective stories don't. Good news then... Batman Adventures and the animated continuity matters, the main comic one doesn't. Now you only need to review one comic a month. (except for an occasional Annual or Special) |
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Post by Crimebuster on May 2, 2016 19:05:55 GMT -5
the free 16 page comic that came with one of the Batman/Tec issues in 1988 or so. First I've heard of this. More info? Just guessing, but I think he's referring to bonus insert comics that were included throughout the DC line. It's not a separate comic, it would be inside one of the existing issues. A quick google reveals that Detective #589 had one, for instance. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on May 2, 2016 19:30:56 GMT -5
First I've heard of this. More info? Just guessing, but I think he's referring to bonus insert comics that were included throughout the DC line. It's not a separate comic, it would be inside one of the existing issues. A quick google reveals that Detective #589 had one, for instance. Oh, the amateur try-out inserts. Forgot about those. Thanks much for the clarification! |
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If continuity is important, then you need to finish up Venom because it is part of the origin of Bane. I would recommend that if it's an arc off by itself like these have been, just do one review of the whole arc. You might need to do that for upcoming mini series as well. Robin II #1 gets a full write up of the mini series and then add little posts when #2, #3 and #4 come out in their correct chronological spots redirecting back to the review. That might speed it up a little.
