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Post by Slam_Bradley on Sept 21, 2019 10:19:42 GMT -5
I'm struggling to see why one would get up in arms about knock-off characters of what are already knock-off characters. It's not as if Superman or Batman are extraordinarily original ideas. Hercules/Hugo Danner in a circus outfit and urban Zorro with a batrope instead of a sword.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2019 10:25:36 GMT -5
No-one is up in arms. It's merely a discussion.  |
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Post by Icctrombone on Sept 21, 2019 10:36:07 GMT -5
I'm struggling to see why one would get up in arms about knock-off characters of what are already knock-off characters. It's not as if Superman or Batman are extraordinarily original ideas. Hercules/Hugo Danner in a circus outfit and urban Zorro with a batrope instead of a sword. The original resources for these “knock off “ characters in most cases are not being published. You don’t really think Hercules, Zorro and Hugo Danner are more well known the Supes and Bats , do you ? Slam, I’m staying clear of your lawn. |
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Post by Duragizer on Sept 21, 2019 20:22:56 GMT -5
It certainly does diminish Superman's role as last son of Krypton when other Kryptonians, including an entire city, keep showing up. Conversely, having more Kryptonians around to compare to can go towards showing how unique Superman really is. That's one of the reasons I'm disappointed there wasn't* a post- Crisis Kara Zor-El. I can imagine a Superman whose personality/outlook is 100% Terran having some interesting interactions with a Supergirl whose personality/outlook is 100% Kryptonian. *That post- Birthright anorexic cheerleader drawn by Michael Turner doesn't count. |
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Post by String on Sept 22, 2019 10:59:56 GMT -5
De-uniquing comes in several flavors: 1) A new origin and character to renovate an old concept for a new generation. Barry Allen, Miles Morales, etc. 2) A duplicated origin story to provide an "equal and opposite" villain. Sinestro, General Zod, etc. 3) The momentary thrill of seeing the sky filled with a particular hero-type. Green Lantern Corps, Superman Squad, Batmen of All Nations, etc. 4) Evil twin from another world/dimension. Bizarro, Goatee Spock, etc. 5) Good twin (or stand-in) from another world/dimension. Jeen Grey, Rachel Summers, etc. 6) Time-displaced analogue. Laurel Kent, Spider-Man 2099, Batman Beyond, etc. Others too probably. I'm fine with all these factors. 'Equal and opposite' villains have always been one of my favorite types of rogues for any hero. Yet I'm boggled by where DC draws the line in the sand with this sometimes. Most recent example being when Barry Allen was brought back from the dead after Wally West had been the Flash for nigh on 20 years or more by that point. Wally was pushed to the roadside rather quickly for Barry to take over the mantle again. So it suddenly became a cardinal sin for there to be two Flashes when it's perfectly okay to have 3600 Green Lanterns, all of whom have the same power?? |
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Post by rberman on Sept 22, 2019 16:14:09 GMT -5
De-uniquing comes in several flavors: 1) A new origin and character to renovate an old concept for a new generation. Barry Allen, Miles Morales, etc. 2) A duplicated origin story to provide an "equal and opposite" villain. Sinestro, General Zod, etc. 3) The momentary thrill of seeing the sky filled with a particular hero-type. Green Lantern Corps, Superman Squad, Batmen of All Nations, etc. 4) Evil twin from another world/dimension. Bizarro, Goatee Spock, etc. 5) Good twin (or stand-in) from another world/dimension. Jeen Grey, Rachel Summers, etc. 6) Time-displaced analogue. Laurel Kent, Spider-Man 2099, Batman Beyond, etc. Others too probably. I'm fine with all these factors. 'Equal and opposite' villains have always been one of my favorite types of rogues for any hero. Yet I'm boggled by where DC draws the line in the sand with this sometimes. Most recent example being when Barry Allen was brought back from the dead after Wally West had been the Flash for nigh on 20 years or more by that point. Wally was pushed to the roadside rather quickly for Barry to take over the mantle again. So it suddenly became a cardinal sin for there to be two Flashes when it's perfectly okay to have 3600 Green Lanterns, all of whom have the same power?? I agree, though the Green Lanterns are in theory assigned to different beats. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Sept 23, 2019 8:17:23 GMT -5
De-uniquing comes in several flavors: 1) A new origin and character to renovate an old concept for a new generation. Barry Allen, Miles Morales, etc. 2) A duplicated origin story to provide an "equal and opposite" villain. Sinestro, General Zod, etc. 3) The momentary thrill of seeing the sky filled with a particular hero-type. Green Lantern Corps, Superman Squad, Batmen of All Nations, etc. 4) Evil twin from another world/dimension. Bizarro, Goatee Spock, etc. 5) Good twin (or stand-in) from another world/dimension. Jeen Grey, Rachel Summers, etc. 6) Time-displaced analogue. Laurel Kent, Spider-Man 2099, Batman Beyond, etc. Others too probably. Good point. I mean, I am a fan of Spider-Man 2099. Yes, it probably fits John Byrne's designation of "de-uniquing", but it was set in the far future (now only 80 years away!), it was fresh in its own way, and I did find it compelling. This returns to my original point about my statement not being intended to be absolute. But for me, Miles Morales' Spider-Man, at least the tales I've read, aren't really breaking any new ground. I know he has his own stories to tell - and I certainly enjoyed him in Into The Spider-Verse - but I fear that they're going too far. I don't mind something like the Nova Corps - he wears a uniform after all - or the Green Lantern Corps. But having the Red Hulk and Red She-Hulk exist makes the cynic in me think it's about toy merchandising first and foremost. Or just about selling more books. I quite like the concept of uniqueness. I mean, by its very nature, I presume there can only be one Sorcerer Supreme at any one time (I wouldn't be surprised if Marvel had more than one, though, although that would surely be like the UK having more than one monarch on the throne). I think Spidey 2099 is pretty unique.. Miguel O'Hara doesn't really resemble Peter Parker much. His origin is pretty similar, yes, but the power set is a bit different, and his character is as well. |
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Post by mikelmidnight on Sept 23, 2019 12:00:35 GMT -5
As always, one should find a middle ground between extremes. I'm not fond of Kandorians or Super Pets, but Supergirl & a handful of Phantom Zone inmates don't bother me.
I give those a pass because (a) they're older and I grew up with them, and (b) they're not getting their own comics, but just remaining background details. I do acknowledge however that the Bronze Age Superman had a hard time being taken seriously by readers partially because so much of the Silver Age silliness remained as part of continuity.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2019 16:39:15 GMT -5
Well I liked DC's sidekicks and knockoffs like Supergirl and Batwoman. It was something that made DC different than Marvel. Now it seems like Marvel has taken that concept from DC and gone to the extreme. For example it has gotten ridiculous with all the different Hulks.
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Post by badwolf on Sept 23, 2019 17:05:15 GMT -5
I don't mind the Phantom Zone criminals because there's a real reason they would have been offworld at the time, and they act as "evil doppelgangers" to some extent which is a nice story trope. (I know Brainiac "saved" Kandor but it still seems a bit too much. Plus Superman keeping a tiny city in his fortress is a bit weird.)
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Post by rberman on Sept 23, 2019 17:08:30 GMT -5
I don't mind the Phantom Zone criminals because there's a real reason they would have been offworld at the time, and they act as "evil doppelgangers" to some extent which is a nice story trope. (I know Brainiac "saved" Kandor but it still seems a bit too much. Plus Superman keeping a tiny city in his fortress is a bit weird.) The Henry Cavill Superman movie was on TV a couple of nights ago, and my wife was quizzing me about the Krypton scenes in which they send General Zod to the Phantom Zone just before the planet explodes. Why didn't they send others also, once it became apparent that doom was eminent? I had no answer. |
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Post by tarkintino on Sept 23, 2019 17:48:48 GMT -5
I don't mind the Phantom Zone criminals because there's a real reason they would have been offworld at the time, and they act as "evil doppelgangers" to some extent which is a nice story trope. (I know Brainiac "saved" Kandor but it still seems a bit too much. Plus Superman keeping a tiny city in his fortress is a bit weird.) The Henry Cavill Superman movie was on TV a couple of nights ago, and my wife was quizzing me about the Krypton scenes in which they send General Zod to the Phantom Zone just before the planet explodes. Why didn't they send others also, once it became apparent that doom was eminent? I had no answer. Wasn't the Phantom Zone supposed to be inescapable in Man of Steel? If so, why would anyone essentially condemn innocent Kryptons to that horrible fate by sending them there? That's like a "prison is better than death" option, when its not one at all, when one considers what actually goes on in prison. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2019 3:59:10 GMT -5
Well I liked DC's sidekicks and knockoffs like Supergirl and Batwoman. It was something that made DC different than Marvel. Now it seems like Marvel has taken that concept from DC and gone to the extreme. For example it has gotten ridiculous with all the different Hulks. This is an important point. I did find it fun as a kid. I liked Batgirl. There was Superwoman once ( DC Comics Presents, I think). And the "imaginary stories" had so many spin-off characters. Marvel has taken it to the extreme. Coming soon: a story revealing that the radioactive spider bit 30 other people in Queens. Despite my best efforts, Red Hulk and Red She-Hulk do nothing for me. They might do one day - the right writer might make me REALLY CARE about them - but for now, it seems redundant. |
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Post by tingramretro on Sept 24, 2019 4:06:20 GMT -5
A thought that just crossed my mind reading this... did they ever do a team-up of SPIDER-WOMAN, SHE-HULK and MS. MARVEL ? Seems like they should have.  Yes, more than once. |
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Post by tingramretro on Sept 24, 2019 4:07:45 GMT -5
Well I liked DC's sidekicks and knockoffs like Supergirl and Batwoman. It was something that made DC different than Marvel. Now it seems like Marvel has taken that concept from DC and gone to the extreme. For example it has gotten ridiculous with all the different Hulks. You mean all the different Hulks who aren't actually around anymore and haven't been for a few years? |
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