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Post by Duragizer on Nov 2, 2019 0:44:42 GMT -5
  This was years before Ron Marz put Kyle Rayner’s murdered girlfriend in the fridge. But Marz is the one who gets remembered for this, not Peter David.  Thanks for reminding me why I often hate superhero comics. |
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Nov 2, 2019 0:49:35 GMT -5
"Hal, speaking for Englehart, is eager to write off the age difference as a “technicality.”
Yeah, that was the exact impression I got.
Wow. I mean, you can have whatever opinion you want, but FREAKING COMICS APPROVED SUPERHERO COMICS ARE NOT THE PLACE TO ARGUE AGE OF CONSENT LAWS!!!! Or even come close to sort of maybe arguing age of consent laws.
I honestly can't wrap my head around it. I usually really like Englehart.
This is bad. THis. Is. Bad. This is a total failure of both creative and editorial. I can't think of anything close to this skeevy in the history of superhero comics since the days of "comedic" black/ethnic sidekicks. I think this is the only storyline in the history of mainstream comics that I would be OK with the creative team getting fired as a result. IT'S JUST SOOOO BAD!!! HOW IS THIS SO BAD!! THIS IS SO BAD!!!!
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Post by Graphic Autist on Nov 2, 2019 3:19:22 GMT -5
And Denny O'Neil, an authority-hating, cop-hating left-wing alcoholic (I'm sorry, but it even got him into trouble with Jim Shooter at Marvel) Anything to cite this on? Was it the cop-hating or alcohol-loving that supposedly got him into trouble with Shooter? |
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Post by Icctrombone on Nov 2, 2019 6:39:53 GMT -5
I seldom followed Green Lantern, who rivals the Flash as the most boring heroe invented, but I never knew about all this. I heard about the age thing but Sapphire murdering the pink woman was too intense.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Nov 2, 2019 8:22:55 GMT -5
This was years before Ron Marz put Kyle Rayner’s murdered girlfriend in the fridge. But Marz is the one who gets remembered for this, not Peter David. Wasn't it Owsley not David who killed off Katma Tui? Just a young ... er guy taking a guess at it; comics were more mainstream in the 90’s than before. So to a bunch of new readers getting into comics that never bothered to read comic from before they jumped in think Marz did it first. Take it from a guy that did read old GL comics and still am just learning this reading this thread. |
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Post by rberman on Nov 2, 2019 9:02:11 GMT -5
Just a young ... er guy taking a guess at it; comics were more mainstream in the 90’s than before. So to a bunch of new readers getting into comics that never bothered to read comic from before they jumped in think Marz did it first. Take it from a guy that did read old GL comics and still am just learning this reading this thread. Gail Simone linked Marz with this trope in 1999 when she circulated a list of murdered female comic book characters under the heading "Women in Refrigerators." She would have been the first to say that the trope predated Marz, but that particular image made a handy short-hand for this problem that's been much discussed in the last 20 years. The underlying issue is that American superhero comics are primarily created by and written for men, with men as the indispensible protagonists. So when authors cast about for a supporting character to sacrifice in the name of drama, it's typical for a female character to be close at hand. Simone was arguing that the lack of long-running female characters helped perpetuate the lack of female readers. The trope even made it into the film "Once Upon a Deadpool" in which Deadpool's girlfriend is murdered, causing Fred Savage to exclaim, "You fridged her!" |
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Post by profh0011 on Nov 2, 2019 12:17:35 GMT -5
And Denny O'Neil, an authority-hating, cop-hating left-wing alcoholic (I'm sorry, but it even got him into trouble with Jim Shooter at Marvel) Anything to cite this on? Was it the cop-hating or alcohol-loving that supposedly got him into trouble with Shooter? I wish I could cite which interview I read about his hatred for cops and authority. It may have been in ALTER EGO, or COMIC BOOK ARTIST. Not sure. But I can respond to the other thing.
In the mid-80s, just before the place was closed and torn down, I went to a Fred Greenberg comics show in the basement of the Sheraton in Philadelphia (on JFK Blvd.) and met inker Brett Breeding. I'd loved his sharp work for years by then, but was shocked at how young he was. When did this guy get started in the biz? Anyway... he told me a story about how, while working on Spider-Man, the editor in charge, instead of doing his job, reading or looking over the books that came his way as quickly as possible, and then passing the work on to the next stage in the "assembly line process", got into the bad havit of letting work sit on his desk for WEEKS on end.
The result was, by the time he-- the inker-- got it, it was already LATE. So he had 2 choices: either do a rush job, turn in lousy, sub-par work, and make the fans angry at him... or, take his time, do a "proper" job, be late, and get his EDITOR pissed off at him. He went with the rush jobs, which hurt his rep with fans, but made his editor happy. This explained a lot. He politely avoided mentioning which editor it was, and somehow, I didn't bother to look it up, as by that point, I'd totally lost interest in Spider-Man comics anyway... for the 2nd time.
DECADES later... I was reading-- on, of all places-- JIM SHOOTER's own blog-- a story that, I soon realized, was the SAME story-- from the other end. Shooter was notorious for always siding with "management" over "the freelancers" in any dispute. But this was an exception. Shooter described a situation where one of his editors, instead of doing his job, was spending hours in the office doing his FREELANCE writing work instead, and letting his day job slip, just allowing pages to pile up on his desk for weeks on end.
Shooter found out the guy was also having a serious DRINKING problem.
Shooter gave the guy an ultimatum-- either clean up your act-- or find work elsewhere.
And he did say who it was-- Denny O'Neil.
Man. This explained so much. It certainly explained those 3 HORRIBLE years of IRON MAN when O'Neil had Stark needlessly fall off the wagon and allowed his life, his career, and his company to go completely to hell, to the point where Stark was briefly seen living in the gutter.
I don't know exactly what happened... but it seems like not long after that, O'Neil went back to DC, and took over as BATMAN editor from Len Wein. And proceeded, over the next 15 straight years, in my eyes, to systematically DESTROY the character of what had been, for decades, my favorite costumed crime-fighter.
So when, later still, O'Neil was interviewed on camera for the "Comic-Book Super-Heroes Unmasked" TV documentary, describing writers & editors as "guardians of modern mythology", I got DEEPLY offended, and felt, "THE NERVE of this guy!!!" Guardians? DESECRATORS, more like it.
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Post by profh0011 on Nov 2, 2019 12:23:23 GMT -5
I seldom followed Green Lantern, who rivals the Flash as the most boring heroe invented, but I never knew about all this. I heard about the age thing but Sapphire murdering the pink woman was too intense. Not long after there was the infamous scene where Hal, distraught, had a run-in with his "old friend" Oliver Queen... who was so self-absorbed and uninterested in Hal's problems, he told him to his face... "GET A LIFE!!!"
Oliver, under O'Neil (as either writer or editor) was always an A**H***.
And then COSMIC ODYSSEY had John Stewart accidentally be responsible for the destruction of an ENTIRE populated planet. Thank YOU, Jim Starlin, for adding to the mess.
It's no wonder Gerard Jones wanted to just put it al aside and introduce a new, young GL to pick up the mantle for a new generation.
Ron Marz eventually did just that, 4 years later... but under circumstances that unnecessarily BLACKENED the reputation of Hal, while editor Kevin Dooley insisted "Hal had ALWAYS been heading in that direction". OH, REALLY?
I dunno. Hal pulling a "Jerry Lee Lewis" just doesn't seem all that bad somehow...  |
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Post by profh0011 on Nov 2, 2019 12:29:19 GMT -5
when authors cast about for a supporting character to sacrifice in the name of drama, it's typical for a female character to be close at hand. Though Gerry Conway tried to claim "credit" for it decades later... when it happened, he violently DENIED any involvement. He was telling the truth the first time.
While Roy Thomas suggested KILLING some cast member to "shake things up", it was writer & artist JOHN ROMITA who suggested OFFING Gwen Stacy in ASM #121. He said it was a tribute to Milton Caniff (one of his artistic heroes) for bumping off STEVE CANYON's girlfriend in the newspapers. Probably true. But I think he also resented Gwen for many years by then, and how his editor had forced him to have Pete & Gwen get serious, when it should have been obvious to anybody that Pete & MJ were much more compatible, and meant for each other. Romita got his chance, and he TOOK it. BYE BYE, Gwen! (heh heh heh)
Thomas was big on killing other people's characters. Before this happened, he'd already murdered Lady Dorma on her wedding day, after spending 2 years building up to it. Allegedly, this was because Thomas was going thru a divorce at the time, and didn't think marriage was a viable direction for a main character.
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Post by Graphic Autist on Nov 2, 2019 12:33:18 GMT -5
Shooter found out the guy was also having a serious DRINKING problem.
Shooter gave the guy an ultimatum-- either clean up your act-- or find work elsewhere.
And he did say who it was-- Denny O'Neil.
Man. This explained so much. It certainly explained those 3 HORRIBLE years of IRON MAN when O'Neil had Stark needlessly fall off the wagon and allowed his life, his career, and his company to go completely to hell, to the point where Stark was briefly seen living in the gutter. That was around when I started collecting comics instead of just reading one-off issues, around 1983 or so, and I remember Tony being a super-lush. People don’t seem to like Shooter, but I like reading his accounts of the industry. I had no idea some don’t like Denny...guy’s a legend. I like his bronze-age work. And I don’t mind challenging authority. Thank for the info. I found it interesting. |
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Nov 2, 2019 14:25:30 GMT -5
Wow lots take in here. My personal thoughts on the recent posts.
I liked Stark (much like Karen Page’s addiction) struggling with a real life problem. He’s rich af, is a super hero, genius, runs a company yet still s substance brought him to his knees. It’s one of those relatable things. More so for me because of my own struggles with alcohol. And even if it was Denny projecting maybe that outlet helped him.
Hal as I’ve said before, isn’t a good role model. So to me someone saying it’s enviable that he turned out, as he did when I was reading GL, as Pharallanx isn’t out of character. Hal has done some things that aren’t good. That are selfish. Not saying other heroes haven’t. Just seems to be an ongoing thing with Hal.
I didn’t mind Starlin’s use of John in Cosmic Odyssey. To me it was a display of arrogance of power overriding clear thinking. I will say it would have got the bill better for Hal to do some dumb shit like that. But reading GL with Kyle and his relationship with John seemed to shape their relationship well. And too me a hallmark point that shaped John. Especially that by the end he wasn’t feeling sorry for himself and used it to learn from.
As far as GA and GL at the time of the infamous crossover I found Hal more insufferable than Oliver in his opinions shaped by their political beliefs. And I’m more conservative than I am liberal. Which is funny because as a millionaire you’d think Oliver would be less in touch with the common man than Hal, an Air Force officer brought up what seems to be at best middle class.
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Post by berkley on Nov 2, 2019 20:10:53 GMT -5
"Hal, speaking for Englehart, is eager to write off the age difference as a “technicality.” Yeah, that was the exact impression I got. Wow. I mean, you can have whatever opinion you want, but FREAKING COMICS APPROVED SUPERHERO COMICS ARE NOT THE PLACE TO ARGUE AGE OF CONSENT LAWS!!!! Or even come close to sort of maybe arguing age of consent laws. I honestly can't wrap my head around it. I usually really like Englehart. This is bad. THis. Is. Bad. This is a total failure of both creative and editorial. I can't think of anything close to this skeevy in the history of superhero comics since the days of "comedic" black/ethnic sidekicks. I think this is the only storyline in the history of mainstream comics that I would be OK with the creative team getting fired as a result. IT'S JUST SOOOO BAD!!! HOW IS THIS SO BAD!! THIS IS SO BAD!!!! Rbrman gave a pretty plausible explanation for it but yeah, in general I haven't been tempted to read any of Englehart's 80s Marvel/DC stuff, it all sounds awful to me. His solo stuff, like Coyote, look much better, though I haven't read a whole lot of it.
His 70s Marvel work still makes him one of the best comics writers of all time, though, in my book.
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Post by berkley on Nov 2, 2019 20:15:25 GMT -5
That's a helpful summary, profh0011!  Who is that, Galactus's grand-daughter? |
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Post by Icctrombone on Nov 2, 2019 20:26:30 GMT -5
Did she hack her to pieces with her ring? I don't see a weapon.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Nov 3, 2019 3:03:32 GMT -5
Rbrman gave a pretty plausible explanation for it but yeah, in general I haven't been tempted to read any of Englehart's 80s Marvel/DC stuff, it all sounds awful to me. His solo stuff, like Coyote, look much better, though I haven't read a whole lot of it. His 70s Marvel work still makes him one of the best comics writers of all time, though, in my book.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, total agreement all-round. Englehart is my favorite Captain America, Doctor Strange, and Avengers (vol. 1, or 2-6 for that matter) writer, I did a post where I argued that '70s Marvel Steve was the best writer of other people's characters in superhero history. I think he's the anti Len Wein. I never really dug anything he wrote for DC. (Same way I never connected with anything Wein wrote for Marvel.) And his Green Lantern had some interesting ideas... But, geez, what a horrible mis-step. (Also Coyote is great!) |
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