|
|
Post by profh0011 on Nov 3, 2019 11:31:50 GMT -5
My comics-shop guy, many years ago, told a story he'd heard about Steve Englehart & Marshall Rogers both taking a lot of LSD. He said, it's generally felt that to a point, this will "expand" your mind and enhance your creativity. But only to a point. Past that point... it burns out your brain.
Yes, I felt in the 70s that Englehart seemed like he could do no wrong. HERO FOR HIRE (still my favorite run of that book), AVENGERS (I loved it back then, decades later when I filled in massive holes with the ESSENTIAL books, I found that even when he first got started and didn't seem to quite know yet what he was doing, he was ALREADY better than Roy Thomas), DOCTOR STRANGE (one of the only writers after Steve Ditko who really seemed to know what he was doing on that book), CAPTAIN AMERICA (I came in a bit late, but when I filled in the gaps with back issues, it was clear he was the FIRST writer since Jim Steranko who knew what he was doing on that book at all), SUPER-VILLAIN TEAM-UP (apparently he got on this book on a dare... and proved he was the ONLY writer in its entire run who knew what he was doing), VAMPIRELLA (great stuff.. but his run was cut short WAY too fast). Even when I got THE BEAST (in AMAZING ADVENTURES), his very first professional writing job, from his 1st installment he was WAY better than Gerry Conway, who set up that mess in the first place. His run of CAPTAIN MAR-VELL... I'm really gonna have to re-read. There just seemed something incoherent about that one. (Scott Edelman was better, for Heaven's sake!)
JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA captivated me; MISTER MIRACLE was amazing; BATMAN in DETECTIVE COMICS... well, that's considered one of the "definitive" runs on the character to this day. But if it hadn't been for Gerry Conway running him off of AVENGERS, Englehart might never have gone to DC in the first place, and his time at Marvel might have continued... who knows how long?
During his short time at DC, he planned to quit comics and become a novelist. But his resume as a comics writer actually worked against him. Some years later, he came back to comics. I was glad. BUT... he never seemed quite the same guy he'd been in the 70s. He actually worked for 3 different publishers AT THE SAME TIME... but his work was very erratic and inconsistent. Some okay, some brilliant... some, incoherent drivel.
Every so often, in the years since, he would still prove to me he still "had it"... but those incidents were getting fewer and farther between.
I loved his DARK DETECTIVE mini with Rogers... at the time, NOBODY seemed to realize he was the only one at DC who was writing brand-new "Earth-1" stories. From what I've heard, DC has gone on record saying they "NEVER" want the 2nd half of those issues to get published. Something really strange going on there...
|
|
|
|
Post by dbutler69 on Nov 4, 2019 13:09:35 GMT -5
Wow. I didn't even know about this. I only have two Englehart Green Lantern issues, #221, which is a Milennium tie-in which I felt was pretty weak, but I always give witers a pass on tie-ins since it's usually forced upon them, and #222, which I thought was a very good issue where Sinestro is put on trial by the Green Lantern Corps. I'm familiar with Arisia but had no idea that she was 14 years old. I will assume that her species matures physically, mentally, and emotionally at the same rate as earth humans, and so this is appalling, not to mention probably against some sort of intergalactic space law.
|
|
|
|
Post by MDG on Nov 4, 2019 13:54:36 GMT -5
...I'm familiar with Arisia but had no idea that she was 14 years old. I will assume that her species matures physically, mentally, and emotionally at the same rate as earth humans,.... Why would you assume that? Once you get into the whole "alien species" thing, it's hard to assume anything. I've known plenty of 14-year-old earth kids, but I don't think I'd give any of them a ring that could destroy a continent. Maybe the Guardians know a little more about what she's capable of handling.
It feels like Englehart's putting the situation out there to explore the morality of it in fiction.
|
|
|
|
Post by dbutler69 on Nov 4, 2019 15:17:13 GMT -5
...I'm familiar with Arisia but had no idea that she was 14 years old. I will assume that her species matures physically, mentally, and emotionally at the same rate as earth humans,.... Why would you assume that? Once you get into the whole "alien species" thing, it's hard to assume anything. I've known plenty of 14-year-old earth kids, but I don't think I'd give any of them a ring that could destroy a continent. Maybe the Guardians know a little more about what she's capable of handling.
It feels like Englehart's putting the situation out there to explore the morality of it in fiction.
I was partly being facetious but I was also partly assuming that aliens age at the same rate as earth people for the same reason that aliens always speak English, because it's easier that way. |
|
|
|
Post by rberman on Nov 4, 2019 16:09:37 GMT -5
...I'm familiar with Arisia but had no idea that she was 14 years old. I will assume that her species matures physically, mentally, and emotionally at the same rate as earth humans,.... Why would you assume that? Once you get into the whole "alien species" thing, it's hard to assume anything. I've known plenty of 14-year-old earth kids, but I don't think I'd give any of them a ring that could destroy a continent. Maybe the Guardians know a little more about what she's capable of handling. It feels like Englehart's putting the situation out there to explore the morality of it in fiction. All the other Lanterns agree that Arisia (pre-aging) is just a kid, whatever that means for an orange alien elf. Space opera rarely gives us truly alien worldviews; generally it's just about alien females who don't understand why Earth women are so hung up on wearing clothes. Englehart doesn't do anything with Arisia and Hal after hooking them up. In fact, he sends her on a mission into deep space without Hal. Which shows further that pop culture romances are all about the chasing rather than the having of a soul-mate. |
|
|
|
Post by profh0011 on Nov 4, 2019 16:18:31 GMT -5
Wow. I didn't even know about this. I only have two Englehart Green Lantern issues, #221, which is a Milennium tie-in which I felt was pretty weak, but I always give witers a pass on tie-ins since it's usually forced upon them, and #222, which I thought was a very good issue where Sinestro is put on trial by the Green Lantern Corps. I'm familiar with Arisia but had no idea that she was 14 years old. I will assume that her species matures physically, mentally, and emotionally at the same rate as earth humans, and so this is appalling, not to mention probably against some sort of intergalactic space law. Englehart does not get a pass on " MILLENNIUM". HE wrote that CRAP.
Even when it was coming out, readers thought it was garbage.
The 4th "annual" company-wide crossover, "INVASION", was at least 100 times better.
To this day, I get intensely annoyed when I run across the line... "No man escapes The Manhunters!"
It's ironic, because the story where that CRAP started-- Steve first 2 issues of JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA-- was adapted as a pretty cool episode of the WB JUSTICE LEAGUE cartoon. (They substituted John Stewart for Hal Jordan. In the comic, Hal was accused of blowing up an entire populated planet. Funny, huh, when you consider COSMIC ODYSSEY.)
|
|
|
|
Post by dbutler69 on Nov 4, 2019 16:29:58 GMT -5
Wow. I didn't even know about this. I only have two Englehart Green Lantern issues, #221, which is a Milennium tie-in which I felt was pretty weak, but I always give witers a pass on tie-ins since it's usually forced upon them, and #222, which I thought was a very good issue where Sinestro is put on trial by the Green Lantern Corps. I'm familiar with Arisia but had no idea that she was 14 years old. I will assume that her species matures physically, mentally, and emotionally at the same rate as earth humans, and so this is appalling, not to mention probably against some sort of intergalactic space law. Englehart does not get a pass on " MILLENNIUM". HE wrote that CRAP.
Even when it was coming out, readers thought it was garbage.
The 4th "annual" company-wide crossover, "INVASION", was at least 100 times better.
To this day, I get intensely annoyed when I run across the line... "No man escapes The Manhunters!"
It's ironic, because the story where that CRAP started-- Steve first 2 issues of JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA-- was adapted as a pretty cool episode of the WB JUSTICE LEAGUE cartoon. (They substituted John Stewart for Hal Jordan. In the comic, Hal was accused of blowing up an entire populated planet. Funny, huh, when you consider COSMIC ODYSSEY.)
Ah, I've never read Millennium, so I didn't realize that he wrote it. You're right, no pass then. |
|
|
|
Post by chaykinstevens on Nov 4, 2019 18:11:11 GMT -5
His run of CAPTAIN MAR-VELL... I'm really gonna have to re-read. There just seemed something incoherent about that one. (Scott Edelman was better, for Heaven's sake!) According to Englehart's website, CM #37-41 were co-plotted by Al Milgrom, and #42-45 were mainly plotted by Milgrom. |
|
|
|
Post by Icctrombone on Nov 4, 2019 18:48:22 GMT -5
I enjoyed the run after Starlin left.
|
|
|
|
Post by profh0011 on Nov 4, 2019 22:13:28 GMT -5
According to Englehart's website, CM #37-41 were co-plotted by Al Milgrom, and #42-45 were mainly plotted by Milgrom. There's something I never knew before. That could explain a lot.
Generally, Englehart seemed like one of the few writers at Marvel in that period whose work was not hurt, no matter which artist he had shoved on his books.
Jim Starlin, in an interview many years ago, told Englehart he "couldn't" read his AVENGERS, because the art was SO AWFUL. (Not sure which art he was referring to-- Don Heck, Bob Brown, or Sal Buscema layouts with Joe Staton finishes-- or for that matter, George Tuska & Vince Colletta.)
The so-called "Marvel Method", I guess, varied depending on exactly who was involved. Some writers wanted to write. Some wanted the artists to do all the work.
Of course, this never happened with Don McGregor. He never used "Marvel Method". He wrote FULL SCRIPT with layouts. "Harvey Kurtzman" style. I didn't know that at the time, but when I found out, it also explained a lot.
If memory serves, Englehart was doing this 6-parter on CM... and somehow, never made it to the end. Chris Claremont did the final episode. And I don't think that one made ANY sense at all. Maybe Milgrom wrote that one, too, and Claremont just filled in the word balloons, not having any clue what was going on.
|
|
|
|
Post by spoon on Nov 9, 2019 22:23:54 GMT -5
It's weird to me to hear Steve Englehart's Green Lantern described negatively because it was one of the first runs I collected as a kid, and I think one that's really influential. A lot of the cast members had very few appearances prior to Englehart's run (even John Stewart had less than 20 prior appearances & Guy Gardner just a handful), so he had a big hand in establishing who they were.
|
|
|
|
Post by profh0011 on Nov 10, 2019 16:01:06 GMT -5
Yeah, before Englehart, John Stewart had just been a potential fill-in. Under Englehart, he became the "official" GL.
Guy Gardner had been in a coma. Englehart brought him out of it... and revealed that the coma had caused Guy to have some form of permanent brain-damage / personality alteration. (Which Keith Giffen & co. RAN with in JUSTICE LEAGUE).
But again, this was a period when Englehart's writing was strangely inconsistent. His "SILVER SURFER"-- done around the same time (if memory serves), went from BRILLIANT in the first year, to average in the 2nd, and less than average in his 3rd. Of course, he also "explained" The Stranger, one of my all-time least-favorite Jack Kirby villains, in a way nobody ever had before-- 20 years of horrible stories with that guy, each worse than the one before.
I always got the impression that Englehart got REALLY bent out of shape when some Marvel editors decided that he not only had to REMOVE Mantis from the book, but that she was NOT ALLOWED to appear in any other books after that. I may be way off-base on this, but I got the impression that that's what caused Englehart's run of FANTASTIC FOUR to go totally off the rails to where it started to feel like it was written for 5-year-olds. It was like Steve was pulling a temper tantrum against the editorial staff, but the readers had to suffer.
|
|
|
|
Post by badwolf on Nov 10, 2019 17:59:50 GMT -5
I may be way off-base on this, but I got the impression that that's what caused Englehart's run of FANTASTIC FOUR to go totally off the rails to where it started to feel like it was written for 5-year-olds. That's how I felt about WCA.
|
|
|
|
Post by Reptisaurus! on Nov 11, 2019 1:45:46 GMT -5
It's weird to me to hear Steve Englehart's Green Lantern described negatively because it was one of the first runs I collected as a kid, and I think one that's really influential. A lot of the cast members had very few appearances prior to Englehart's run (even John Stewart had less than 20 prior appearances & Guy Gardner just a handful), so he had a big hand in establishing who they were. Yeah, that's a good point. He did expand the cast and the scope of the book. It was a radical and interesting transition in a lot of ways. (And interestingly Godawful cringeworthy terrible in one more way!) |
|
|
|
Post by berkley on Nov 11, 2019 2:40:33 GMT -5
Of course, he also "explained" The Stranger, one of my all-time least-favorite Jack Kirby villains, in a way nobody ever had before-- 20 years of horrible stories with that guy, each worse than the one before. I always got the impression that Englehart got REALLY bent out of shape when some Marvel editors decided that he not only had to REMOVE Mantis from the book, but that she was NOT ALLOWED to appear in any other books after that. I may be way off-base on this, but I got the impression that that's what caused Englehart's run of FANTASTIC FOUR to go totally off the rails to where it started to feel like it was written for 5-year-olds. It was like Steve was pulling a temper tantrum against the editorial staff, but the readers had to suffer. Yeah, I don't think his heart was really in it, or to look at it in another way, he found it harder to put up with the restrictions of the Marvel/DC world after working in other fields, including independent comics.
Re the Stranger, I never had a problem with the character and thought his first story (I assume it was) in the X-Men was really good, but I admit I can't think of any memorable appearances after that. At some point along the way they decided to give him a superhero-type costume but never came up with a good one, as far as I remember. I'm curious now to see what Englehart did with him, maybe his Silver Surfer series will be the exception to my general avoidance of his 80s Marvel/DC stuff.
|
|
