shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Nov 6, 2019 17:06:20 GMT -5
For maybe the five people on the planet who don't know this, I reviewed nearly every Batman comic published between 1980 and 1990 in my Complete Batman: 1979-2011 Review Thread and yes, it's pretty much the best Batman material ever published as far as I'm concerned, ESPECIALLY the Pre-Crisis issues by Doug Moench, Gerry Conway, Gene Colan, and Don Newton. It's been slow going over the past few years, but I've used your review thread as my template and guide to reading that run of Batman and Detective. I suppose I've made it through maybe 50 issues of it so far. I'm loving it though. I know one of 2020 goals will be to get back to following in your footsteps and getting more of the run read. I'm honored, sir. Thank you.
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Post by chadwilliam on Nov 7, 2019 0:27:58 GMT -5
I'm not sure I understand your question - or what I can say that hasn't already been said. Some social media users were bickering over whether ULOTB was canon or not. As happens on social media, it turned toxic. Some claimed it was always meant to be canon (pre-Crisis), others claimed it was presented as non-canon. The bickering continued because social media is social media. Like any bickering, it died out. The majority seemed to believe ULOTB was presented as canon. That's my belief, too. Others didn't. Can't really add to that. Why would anyone suppose it was presented as non-canon, I wonder? What would even be the point of presenting a three issue miniseries with the barest excuse for a plot, one that mostly just provides background information on supporting characters, if it was not supposed to be factual? What would be the point? We comic book fans like to argue about the strangest things. My thoughts exactly. It's like asking if Bill Finger intended for Batman's origin to be canonical when it was first presented - well, why wouldn't it be? On a similar note - was there really a debate over whether or not Killing Joke was in continuity back in 1988? Was there even such a thing as non-canonical stories which weren't identified as such (ie. no declaration of 'This is an Imaginary Tale' or 'If it's set in the future, it might not be the future which will come to pass')? I ask because it certainly sounds like it was up for debate, but I can't figure out why. I mean, it's sort of like saying 'Any comic published in 1984 ending in a '7' with a March cover date was assumed to be out of continuity by some fans'. Why? Was this a thing? Or was it an attitude of, "If it doesn't happen in the main titles, it isn't real, and Killing Joke is a prestige one-shot ergo it doesn't count"?
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Post by zaku on Nov 7, 2019 0:45:01 GMT -5
I'm not sure I understand your question - or what I can say that hasn't already been said. Some social media users were bickering over whether ULOTB was canon or not. As happens on social media, it turned toxic. Some claimed it was always meant to be canon (pre-Crisis), others claimed it was presented as non-canon. The bickering continued because social media is social media. Like any bickering, it died out. The majority seemed to believe ULOTB was presented as canon. That's my belief, too. Others didn't. Can't really add to that. Why would anyone suppose it was presented as non-canon, I wonder? What would even be the point of presenting a three issue miniseries with the barest excuse for a plot, one that mostly just provides background information on supporting characters, if it was not supposed to be factual? What would be the point? We comic book fans like to argue about the strangest things. Exactly what I was thinking, thank you. At this point I would be curious to read one of these discussions...
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,878
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Post by shaxper on Nov 7, 2019 6:11:48 GMT -5
On a similar note - was there really a debate over whether or not Killing Joke was in continuity back in 1988? Was there even such a thing as non-canonical stories which weren't identified as such (ie. no declaration of 'This is an Imaginary Tale' or 'If it's set in the future, it might not be the future which will come to pass')? I ask because it certainly sounds like it was up for debate, but I can't figure out why. I mean, it's sort of like saying 'Any comic published in 1984 ending in a '7' with a March cover date was assumed to be out of continuity by some fans'. Why? Was this a thing? Or was it an attitude of, "If it doesn't happen in the main titles, it isn't real, and Killing Joke is a prestige one-shot ergo it doesn't count"? Actually, I believe so. Batman is driving a 1940s era Batmobile, for one. It didn't fit the tone of the still somewhat kid friendly main titles, for two, and Son of the Demon (published prior to it) certainly wasn't intended to be canon, for three. Even Year One was originally slated for a prestige format release, but the success of DKR inspired Denny O'Neil to push a closer alignment between what Miller was writing and what was happening in the core titles. But I don't think there was a concept as elaborate as "in-continuity / out of continuity" at play. O'Neil was a sloppy editor far more concerned with sales numbers than quality and alignment. He was just publishing whatever he thought might sell. Where it might fit or might not fit really wasn't his concern. It was more up to the writers to decide what counted and what didn't. Jim Aparo was the first to acknowledge (some of) the events of Killing Joke in Death in the Family, but I choose to believe it's a slightly different/more continuity-aligned version that ultimately yields the same outcome for the Gordons. It really isn't until 1989 that Marv Wolfman begins fleshing out a more carefully considered continuity for the Post-Crisis Batman, Alan Grant following suit, and Peter Milligan pretty much doing whatever the hell he wanted in between. When Len Wein was running the Bat Office, there was a meticulous, seamless continuity across his writing tenure, Gerry Conway's, and Doug Moench's, and that stretch spanned both core titles and seven years. Once O'Neil took over, the Post-Crisis continuity was a wasteland for three years.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Nov 7, 2019 6:17:45 GMT -5
Why would anyone suppose it was presented as non-canon, I wonder? What would even be the point of presenting a three issue miniseries with the barest excuse for a plot, one that mostly just provides background information on supporting characters, if it was not supposed to be factual? What would be the point? We comic book fans like to argue about the strangest things. My thoughts exactly. It's like asking if Bill Finger intended for Batman's origin to be canonical when it was first presented - well, why wouldn't it be? On a similar note - was there really a debate over whether or not Killing Joke was in continuity back in 1988? Was there even such a thing as non-canonical stories which weren't identified as such (ie. no declaration of 'This is an Imaginary Tale' or 'If it's set in the future, it might not be the future which will come to pass')? I ask because it certainly sounds like it was up for debate, but I can't figure out why. I mean, it's sort of like saying 'Any comic published in 1984 ending in a '7' with a March cover date was assumed to be out of continuity by some fans'. Why? Was this a thing? Or was it an attitude of, "If it doesn't happen in the main titles, it isn't real, and Killing Joke is a prestige one-shot ergo it doesn't count"? I think Finger and Moore were probably dealing with the idea of "canon" the way most fiction does... By not thinking about it at all. I'd guess they were trying to tell a story, and not "establish a mythos" or whatever. It was "canon" until we think of something better or write something else. Finger's work, especially, drew a lot from surrealism and expressionism so I doubt the idea of telling an "in continuity" story was in any way interesting to him.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Nov 7, 2019 6:22:17 GMT -5
Also - My Golden Age for Batman is the Golden Age. I'm always interested in the juncture between "high" and "low" art and Finger's tongue-in-cheeks surrealism is a lot more interesting to me than the relatively simple pulp narratives of the '70s. Sadly, this more arty less pulpy approach is one that modern writers either don't understand or have no interest in following. (And I would put quite a sizable wager on the former, were I a betting man.)
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Post by chadwilliam on Nov 7, 2019 13:37:30 GMT -5
I have to echo Reptisaurus! and cite the actual Golden Age as Batman's Golden Age.
I'm probably in the minority here, but I wasn't crazy about Moench's first run on Batman. Without Moench, we likely wouldn't have had Harvey Bullock. We definitely wouldn't have Black Mask who was arguably one of the last great additions to Batman's Rogues Gallery. His Batman 400 is fantastic as is his later "Prey". Nocturna was an interesting character as was The Night Slayer, Film Freak, and The Dark Rider.
However...
His dialogue/narration was atrocious: "Enjoy the darkness of your dreams, pale Nocturna for when you awaken the bright nightmare will begin. This gun, used to kill me will also shatter the heart of your new lover. And when The Batman is but a ghost perhaps your last love will join us all in Hell."
"She claims to love me - but it's only because I'm another creature of the night. A surrogate for her former lover, Anton Knight, who has become, in her eyes and mine, a slayer of the night."
"Go on, Batman - Hit me if you think I can be hurt! But know this - Ghosts feel nothing! And even if my heart were still alive, the hate it holds is far more than enough to send you straight to Hell!"
"And if the cold piece of steel is an alien thing, the body cannot be denied and in the sense that he altered the gun's aim the night knows in mocking mirth that it is true".
(Batman 380)
I honestly just picked an issue at random to find these samples so I'm not simply cherry picking the worst of the worst. Agonizingly purple with too many paeans to the moon, to the night, to hate, to love, etc, etc. He just sounds like a teen-aged beat poet who thinks he's on a roll.
And that's sort of the thing about the decade - you kind of have to ignore a lot of it for it to deserve consideration as a Golden Age. Alan Grant and Norm Breyfogle; Mike Barr and Alan Davis; Jim Aparo; Alan Brennert; classics such as The Untold Legend of the Batman; "Happy Birthday, Dreadful Joker"; "To Kill a Legend"; "Interlude on Earth Two"; the return of Hugo Strange; "There's Nothing So Savage as a Man Destroying Himself"; "Love Bird" are certainly the types of ingredients needed to come up with a Golden Age, but it's also the decade in which Batman stopped being Batman and turned into an angry, obsessive, man-child; The Joker became a simple terrorist/serial killer; had Jim Starlin attempt such an ultra-serious, hard hitting Batman that it reads like parody (from The Joker as Ambassador to Iran to diplomatic immunity meaning that a diplomat's son can rape women left and right and not be arrested on US soil); Batman teaming up with Joe Chill because Chill knew how to fire a gun or something; 1-800-Kill-Robin; etc.
Now, you could point out that the actual Golden Age (whether you measure that from 1938-1955 or 1938-1945 or whatever) had its clunkers too, but I would argue that it actually holds up better than any other period. Finger, Robinson, Sprang, etc were firing on all cylinders during those formative years. Batman, Robin, Alfred, Gordon, Joker, Penguin, Two-Face, Catwoman, Scarecrow, Clayface, Hugo Strange, Dr Death all popped up within Batman's first three years as did the Signal, The Cave, The Batmobile, and the gadgets; the stories themselves tended to be of high calibre (the first appearance of The Joker; Batman vs. Dr. Death; the debut of Robin, Alfred, Clayface), and Bob Kane post-1940 aside, the artwork looked fantastic.
Of course, I've heard it said that the real Golden Age of Comics is ten which I'd be hard pressed to dispute.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2019 17:41:31 GMT -5
My Batman love has no bounds, but I will always be biased towards 80's Batman like this: My first taste of the character
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Nov 7, 2019 18:02:28 GMT -5
Of course, I've heard it said that the real Golden Age of Comics is ten which I'd be hard pressed to dispute. Shoot. I thought the Golden Age of comics was -28. I've been doing this wrong.
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Post by tarkintino on Nov 7, 2019 18:35:00 GMT -5
I have to echo Reptisaurus! and cite the actual Golden Age as Batman's Golden Age. I'm probably in the minority here, but I wasn't crazy about Moench's first run on Batman Same here. I never found the work distinctive or taking full advantage of Batman's potential at all. You are not kidding. Funny, but accurate. Its a case of someone trying too hard to make characters (or the writer) seem lyrical, or the way your teenager example feels he's written something "deep" after his first try, not knowing that no real writer actually goes off the rails in that way, but he thinks he's bringing something great to the medium. Not really. Solid observations. This is where I disagree; while I said (in an earlier post) that the true Golden Age of Batman was 1968 and throughout the 70s, adding that: ...it was an acknowledgement of the foundation of the Bat-mythos and certain storytelling formats, but it "lost the plot" in only a few short years into the WW2 period, whether it was in Batman, Detective, or especially World's Finest. In that period, Batman was not really growing as a character, but just showing up for variations of the same kind of adventure, until that soured readers, and in came the bizarre additions into the 1950s, where Batman was Batman in name only. The '68-70s period had the best of the characters' roots to draw from, and made the Herculean achievement of integrating it all into the then-modern times in a way where you could (almost) skip over the worst of the Golden / early Silver Age and just believe one Batman period matured and evolved into the late 60s version. With all that was happening to the slowly aging title leads of Wayne and Grayson, for once, Bat-books were standing shoulder to shoulder with other, well developed titles (no matter the publisher), while its mystery/detective stories were an incredible standout in a field where other titles were still writing the same old "superhero punches supervillain" plots, making them feel a decade (or more) out of step. This was the period where in-universe, we saw the beginning of Batman treated as some serious, but nota completely company-playing member of the DC worlds, and not some happy guy just there to go along for the ride. He had an undeniable presence in any book where he appeared, and until this era, that was not to be felt, much less attempted in the scripts. The Batman of 1968-70s effectively edited out nearly 20 years of material that rendered him a joke, and transformed him into an A-list legend, and I'm talking about the perception at the time.
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Post by chadwilliam on Nov 7, 2019 19:15:51 GMT -5
With all this talk about the "psychotic" Batman, if anyone is interested in a nice modern self-contained story, I would suggest Batman Annual #4, where he is a depicted as an intelligent and caring character (there is even a whodunit mistery!). I mean... Thanks for this Zaku. This reminds me that at the time that I lost interest in the main titles and as a result, in modern Batman himself, DC was putting out their series of Batman Black and White stories featuring some of the consistently best Batman tales in a long while. In fact, while I have no interest in what I've seen from the latest Batman comics either, from what I've seen skimming through Detective Comics has me wondering if there isn't a lot of other great stuff that I'm missing just because it isn't the stuff getting the spotlight right now. And "returning from a protracted fight, two ribs broken" - wow! I'm kind of wondering just who this Mrs. Norris character is!
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Post by chadwilliam on Nov 7, 2019 20:43:16 GMT -5
This is where I disagree; while I said (in an earlier post) that the true Golden Age of Batman was 1968 and throughout the 70s, adding that: ...it was an acknowledgement of the foundation of the Bat-mythos and certain storytelling formats, but it "lost the plot" in only a few short years into the WW2 period, whether it was in Batman, Detective, or especially World's Finest. In that period, Batman was not really growing as a character, but just showing up for variations of the same kind of adventure, until that soured readers, and in came the bizarre additions into the 1950s, where Batman was Batman in name only. The '68-70s period had the best of the characters' roots to draw from, and made the Herculean achievement of integrating it all into the then-modern times in a way where you could (almost) skip over the worst of the Golden / early Silver Age and just believe one Batman period matured and evolved into the late 60s version. With all that was happening to the slowly aging title leads of Wayne and Grayson, for once, Bat-books were standing shoulder to shoulder with other, well developed titles (no matter the publisher), while its mystery/detective stories were an incredible standout in a field where other titles were still writing the same old "superhero punches supervillain" plots, making them feel a decade (or more) out of step. This was the period where in-universe, we saw the beginning of Batman treated as some serious, but nota completely company-playing member of the DC worlds, and not some happy guy just there to go along for the ride. He had an undeniable presence in any book where he appeared, and until this era, that was not to be felt, much less attempted in the scripts. The Batman of 1968-70s effectively edited out nearly 20 years of material that rendered him a joke, and transformed him into an A-list legend, and I'm talking about the perception at the time. I'm really impressed that you've managed to narrow the start of your Golden Age so precisely to 1968. I suspect that it's easier to establish a start date for these periods than an end, but too often, people tend to veer to the start of O Neil and Adams run or the beginning of The New Look of 1964 while overlooking the fact that O Neil and Adams didn't materialize out of thin air and The New Look was a work in progress still needing to establish just what worked and what didn't after it began. Strangely, The New Look marks the first era in which I feel the character really started to slip up. I say "strangely" because it seems to be the first time that DC (or Julius Schwartz, I suppose) sat down and asked themselves 'What works and what doesn't for this character?' After years of following trends (ie. 'Alien movies are popular? Let's have him go after aliens? Animal sidekicks are all the rage? Let's give him a dog') DC seemed to focus on what makes Batman Batman. Mecha gave the 1950's era (I'd venture that this extends up to at least the end of the Jack Schiff era in 1964 just before The New Look) as his Golden Age and if you told me I could only have, say, a seven or eight year run collection of any period in Batman's history to take with me to a desert island, 1957/56-1964 would be it. And yet, "Daytime, cheery crimefighter with a dog who is as likely to be facing off against aliens from another planet or common criminals imbued with superpowers by way of an elf in a Batman costume as he is solving a regular mystery" doesn't sound like the proper answer to the question "How would you describe Batman?" And yet, those stories work. No, not every one of them - I'm certainly not going to pretend I care for "When Batman became Bat-Baby" for instance, but what doesn't sound right on paper works surprisingly well on the page. Getting back to your 1968 start date - it seemed as if things started falling into place nicely around that time. Though the series never really embraced the camp craze of the TV series, I don't think Schwartz really knew what he wanted with the character hence "Batman doesn't need a Batwoman and come to think of it, he doesn't really need a butler either" as if both were equally unimportant to the mythos when, of course, Alfred should be indispensable. It was nice to see the addition of villains such as The Getaway Genius - for once, a criminal who actually knew that if you're going to commit a crime in Gotham then you better come up with a plan to avoid Batman - and Carmine Infantino's covers are my favorite images of the character, but Aunt Harriet, The Mystery Analyst Club? These weren't necessarily bad ideas, but simply felt like something tacked on to fill the hole created by the removal of other elements which didn't need removal. 1968 - I can't think of anything that appeared that year that was immediately noticeable as a change other than perhaps the darker settings - but the quality of the stories just noticeably improved in my opinion. Batman's fighting The Scarecrow (who's using a submarine as an escape vehicle) in a park during the day after spotting him while driving around in an ice cream van as Bruce Wayne in 1967 (Batman 189) and 1968 sees him operating at night peering through rooftop windows at errie, shadowy figures (Detective Comics 376). Batman's humming tunes while facing off against The Eraser at the end of 1966 (Batman 188) and 1968 sees him lurking around graveyards under a purplish night sky in silence as he stalks his prey (Batman 202). Something just seemed to click that year. Perhaps it's why I'm skeptical about the effectiveness of reboots/restarts such as the beginning of Schwartz's New Look period and more in favour of letting the pieces fall into place naturally. I will say, that there is one thing the early 70's has going against it in terms of Batman is the disappearance of many of his classic foes. Even The Joker vanished for about three years before "Five Way Revenge" and after a 19 year absence, did The Riddler really need to sit out the seven years following 1968? But I'm not going to argue that the same period which gave us O Neil and Adams on the main titles and Bob Haney and Jim Aparo on Brave and the Bold isn't a solid contender for Golden Age status.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2019 9:13:15 GMT -5
Mine will always be Sheldon Moldoff in the 50's I always thought Sheldon Moldoff was competent but his art looked rather stiff and I much preferred Dick Sprang. With a few exceptions I was not impressed with 1980's Batman, although it fares much better than the 1990's. I grew up reading comics in the 1970's so that is my most memorable Batman, but the 1950's were also very fun as I read those wonderful 80 page giant reprints (coverless copies from Garage Sales) and fell in love with the goofier depictions...so maybe for me the 1950's and 1970's are tied for my personal "Golden Age".
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Post by rberman on Nov 8, 2019 9:45:56 GMT -5
My thoughts exactly. It's like asking if Bill Finger intended for Batman's origin to be canonical when it was first presented - well, why wouldn't it be? On a similar note - was there really a debate over whether or not Killing Joke was in continuity back in 1988? Was there even such a thing as non-canonical stories which weren't identified as such (ie. no declaration of 'This is an Imaginary Tale' or 'If it's set in the future, it might not be the future which will come to pass')? I ask because it certainly sounds like it was up for debate, but I can't figure out why. I mean, it's sort of like saying 'Any comic published in 1984 ending in a '7' with a March cover date was assumed to be out of continuity by some fans'. Why? Was this a thing? Or was it an attitude of, "If it doesn't happen in the main titles, it isn't real, and Killing Joke is a prestige one-shot ergo it doesn't count"? I think Finger and Moore were probably dealing with the idea of "canon" the way most fiction does... By not thinking about it at all. I'd guess they were trying to tell a story, and not "establish a mythos" or whatever. It was "canon" until we think of something better or write something else. Finger's work, especially, drew a lot from surrealism and expressionism so I doubt the idea of telling an "in continuity" story was in any way interesting to him. I attended a panel in September with folks like Mike Grell, Marv Wolfman, and Keith Giffen. They were unanimous in their belief that canon/continuity should only be expected within a given author, and not across authors or titles. There might be two Batman books at once, but only one author showing Robin present. Arkham Prison might be exploded in one title and visited in another. Etc.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2019 10:17:28 GMT -5
Mine will always be Sheldon Moldoff in the 50's I always thought Sheldon Moldoff was competent but his art looked rather stiff and I much preferred Dick Sprang. With a few exceptions I was not impressed with 1980's Batman, although it fares much better than the 1990's. I grew up reading comics in the 1970's so that is my most memorable Batman, but the 1950's were also very fun as I read those wonderful 80 page giant reprints (coverless copies from Garage Sales) and fell in love with the goofier depictions...so maybe for me the 1950's and 1970's are tied for my personal "Golden Age". I liked Moldoff art very much and I do admire Dick Sprang too and reading Batman; the books in the 50's were my preferred choices and I did enjoy reading stuff in the 70's too; but they did not impact the way Moldoff did to me. My Batman reading was basically these two books 1950 to 1969 ... Batman Books 1950 to 1989 ... Detective Comics After 1989 ... I read a very few of them based on my friends recommendations and they were "selected". I do like the 70's ... just for the Detective Comics alone.
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