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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2015 20:52:49 GMT -5
Sure, this is true in some situations where the creator is also the copyright holder and artist and writer, but it's not a common practice of most independent publishers in general, as you initially seemed to suggest. I think when you disregard licensed comics it is the most common situation though. And I have trouble considering Transformers an "independent" comic just because Marvel declined to renew the license and IDW picked it up.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2015 20:56:41 GMT -5
I definitely had that Maxx issue, can't remember a thing about it, but I loved that series from the start and I definitely remember that issue of Wizard being a part of my Maxx collection.
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Post by DE Sinclair on Mar 4, 2015 10:00:15 GMT -5
Agreed. And while the Big Two may have been struggling to get the balance right themselves, O'Neill's point is that it was a farce at Image. With one guy doing art and writing AND being the creator and copyright holder AND desperately trying to meet deadlines, there was absolutely zero quality assurance. In my opinion, all those things (except meeting deadlines) usually spell out better quality. Of course the creator has to have talent from the start, but assuming the creator does have talent. Giving them free reign on their product is always a positive note to me. I would say it's not always better quality. In some cases the writer/artist needed to be reigned in. John Byrne's Doom Patrol comes to mind (though granted he wasn't the creator/copyright holder, but they seemed to let him act like he was).
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2015 13:12:59 GMT -5
Yeah, but I think those cases are rare. I don't like creators being reined in, but there are some creators who are better at illustration than writing and when given full control of a property may not know what to do with it. That's why I think a creator owned project with a single writer/illustrator that was good enough to generate a following in the first place is probably best left alone.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Mar 4, 2015 20:39:56 GMT -5
Agreed. And while the Big Two may have been struggling to get the balance right themselves, O'Neill's point is that it was a farce at Image. With one guy doing art and writing AND being the creator and copyright holder AND desperately trying to meet deadlines, there was absolutely zero quality assurance. In my opinion, all those things (except meeting deadlines) usually spell out better quality. Of course the creator has to have talent from the start, but assuming the creator does have talent. Giving them free reign on their product is always a positive note to me. I think the part that you missed, though, is the "desperately trying to meet deadlines" piece. After all, as the quote above the one we're discussing indicated, Liefeld was churning out Yearbooks, zero issues, and solo titles like crazy while still struggling to get the regular Youngblood series off the ground and launch several other titles simultaneously. I don't know a creator alive, no matter how talented, who could churn out that much work and still keep it quality. Even if Liefeld was talented, there'd be no way to do all of that well, especially without someone looking over his shoulder who could tell him "Look man, this really isn't your best work." Keep in mind that the adoration he was receiving wasn't based on what he'd already produced, but rather on the promise of what was to come. He was building a universe; the appeal of Youngblood was that that universe would grow and become something strong, and that these early issues would have been its foundation. That's why it's important for O'Neill to point out that he did not have his sh*t together and had no realistic plan for keeping to the schedules he'd set for himself nor for churning out quality work while trying to meet those schedules. Youngblood was a house of cards, and perhaps all of the early image titles were part of that house of cards by extension. It's not about what a creator has a right to do; it's about recognizing that he was making promises he couldn't hope to keep. Dave Sim self-published as writer, artist, creator, copyright holder and editor, and promised a 300 issue series, and he's celebrated in that very same issue by that very same interviewer. His plan was solid; his promise was deliverable. Liefeld, on the other hand, was an optimist talking out of his arse.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2015 22:06:56 GMT -5
Yeah, I'm not a fan of deadlines. Or multi title universes. Dave Sim did something monumental, sure. But I'm still not a sticlker for a regular comic like that. If a comic comes out annually, semiannually, that's fine with me. Some of my favorite comics have deadline complaints in the letters section. One of them being Love And Rockets, to which Gary Groth gave a fantastic reply I had reposted on CBR a few times in the past. It was during the Death Of Speedy/Human Diastrophism era, where Groth basically says comics that focus on deadlines don't give a whit about art and the complaining readers will thank him for not demanding the Bros turn something in when it's time rather than when it's done. He said years from now we would be looking at that series as a high watermark of comics as an art form. He was right. I'm of the opinion that even if Youngblood and all of Liefeld's creations came out on time as promised, none of them would be remembered as high watermarks of the art form.
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Post by MDG on Mar 5, 2015 10:48:43 GMT -5
Yeah, I'm not a fan of deadlines. Or multi title universes. Dave Sim did something monumental, sure. But I'm still not a sticlker for a regular comic like that. If a comic comes out annually, semiannually, that's fine with me. Some of my favorite comics have deadline complaints in the letters section. One of them being Love And Rockets, to which Gary Groth gave a fantastic reply I had reposted on CBR a few times in the past. It was during the Death Of Speedy/Human Diastrophism era, where Groth basically says comics that focus on deadlines don't give a whit about art and the complaining readers will thank him for not demanding the Bros turn something in when it's time rather than when it's done. He said years from now we would be looking at that series as a high watermark of comics as an art form. He was right. I'm of the opinion that even if Youngblood and all of Liefeld's creations came out on time as promised, none of them would be remembered as high watermarks of the art form. Yes, but Groth has a business model that could support that at the time--more like book publishing than magazine, B&W, low print runs. But color publishers had to (and may still have to) reserve press time on color presses months in advance and pay penalties even if they didn't have a book ready to print.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2015 15:10:41 GMT -5
I understand the business necessities of deadlines, I just don't think they make a better comic.
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Post by badwolf on Mar 5, 2015 15:31:08 GMT -5
In my opinion, all those things (except meeting deadlines) usually spell out better quality. Of course the creator has to have talent from the start, but assuming the creator does have talent. Giving them free reign on their product is always a positive note to me. I would say it's not always better quality. In some cases the writer/artist needed to be reigned in. John Byrne's Doom Patrol comes to mind (though granted he wasn't the creator/copyright holder, but they seemed to let him act like he was). Curious, what did you think was not "reigned in" about his DP?
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Post by DE Sinclair on Mar 5, 2015 16:15:05 GMT -5
I would say it's not always better quality. In some cases the writer/artist needed to be reigned in. John Byrne's Doom Patrol comes to mind (though granted he wasn't the creator/copyright holder, but they seemed to let him act like he was). Curious, what did you think was not "reigned in" about his DP? Restarting from scratch, regardless of past DP appearances (ala Hawkman after Crisis), adding several remarkably stupid characters, etc. If he'd had a co-creator, or an editor with a backbone, he might have been dissuaded from some of his poor decisions in this series.
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Post by badwolf on Mar 5, 2015 16:20:43 GMT -5
Curious, what did you think was not "reigned in" about his DP? Restarting from scratch, regardless of past DP appearances (ala Hawkman after Crisis), adding several remarkably stupid characters, etc. If he'd had a co-creator, or an editor with a backbone, he might have been dissuaded from some of his poor decisions in this series. I would have thought the restart was an editorial decision, no? I liked Nudge, wasn't crazy about Grunt though his story fit in with DP craziness.
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Post by DE Sinclair on Mar 5, 2015 16:43:09 GMT -5
Restarting from scratch, regardless of past DP appearances (ala Hawkman after Crisis), adding several remarkably stupid characters, etc. If he'd had a co-creator, or an editor with a backbone, he might have been dissuaded from some of his poor decisions in this series. I would have thought the restart was an editorial decision, no? I liked Nudge, wasn't crazy about Grunt though his story fit in with DP craziness. Obviously I have no first hand knowledge, but at the time it was touted as his idea.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Mar 5, 2015 20:34:19 GMT -5
I would have thought the restart was an editorial decision, no? I liked Nudge, wasn't crazy about Grunt though his story fit in with DP craziness. Obviously I have no first hand knowledge, but at the time it was touted as his idea. Byrne has a tendency to ensure that any project he ends up being a part of gets touted as his idea. He even tried to take co-creator credits for Checkmate!
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Mar 8, 2015 10:32:27 GMT -5
Wizard: Superman Tribute Edition For the second time now, while you (and I) can say what you want to say about the regular Wizard publication, they have demonstrated the ability to pour their hearts and souls into their special edition projects. From in-depth interviews with legends Curt Swan, Albin Schwartz, and Elliot S Maggin, to comprehensive explorations of his film presence, artistic evolution, presence as a pop culture icon, his enemies and supporting cast, and his Post-Crisis reboot (and they manage to avoid overly hyping John Byrne's contributions), to lower-brow but tremendously fun articles like a list of his most ridiculous moments, the top ten perks of being a Superman, and a CBIQuiz, not to mention the obligatory ten page interview with Orway, Jurgens, and Carlin about the upcoming Reign of The Supermen story arc, this book is filled to the brim with fantastic celebrations of all things Superman. Interestingly enough, the one thing that really doesn't get discussed anywhere in this book is the actual death of Superman. Instead (and I really appreciate this), they discuss the original Atom Age version of that story: a true classic. My personal favorite part of this issue was the discussion of a forgotten 1942 alternate origin of Superman published by Random House with contributions from Joe Shuster. The major differences in this version (beyond the names of Ma and Pa Kent) are Superman using his powers in secret with no public presence, and Clark first meeting Perry White years earlier and being disappointed when he doesn't remember him when he goes looking for a job at the Planet. Both ideas were incorporated into the Post-Crisis Superman, with Clark operating in secret for the first several years of his career (Man of Steel), and Perry meeting Lois years earlier and not remembering her when she comes looking for a job at the Planet (World of Metropolis). I also really enjoyed both talents interviewed for this book who worked under Weisinger maligning him as a stubborn, cantankerous bully. I had no idea he used to torment Jerry Siegel of all people about his work on Superman! The only real disappointment in this issue was the breakdown of Superman's powers which, clocking in at a measly three pages, is hardly comprehensive. Interesting tidbit: While DC usually gets a very bad reputation for how it treats its older talent, we learn in Swan's interview that they've still got him on contract and are providing him with full health insurance, even though he had been unable to pencil more than two pages a week for them when he came back on staff in the 1980s and, at the time of this story, was producing nothing for them at all. Amazingly enough, he complains about this treatment in the article, expecting to be given more to do and airing his grievance publicly here, even though he could no longer produce quickly enough to be on a monthly title. So, in the end, I'm left only wondering WHY. Why flipflop from completely ignoring and then insulting the death of Superman event to building an entire special around it and claiming "This catastrophe has touched more people's lives than any single event in the comics medium," especially as DC's sales had already slumped back to their pre-Death of Superman levels by this point? The wind clearly wasn't blowing in DC's direction anymore by the time of this publication. It's true that Wizard is always hopelessly at least four months behind comic news and trends, so they might just be that late to the party. However, the interview at the center of this special was originally slated for Wizard #19 (at which point it was postponed, initially to be published in the next issue), and the decision to turn it into a full special was only announced last month in Wizard #20. So it would seem that Wizard was fully aware of where the market was at the time that they made this decision. I've asked many times in watching Wizard completely ignore DC whether it was purposefully attempting to manipulate the comic book market away from the company, but now I wonder the reverse. DC was now at its lowest sales point ever (15% of market share) and in very real danger of going belly up. Clearly, even the momentary bump triggered by the Death of Superman wasn't enough to change that course. Maybe, regardless of what they thought of DC's current output, Wizard wanted to help change that, and thus, while this is definitely a quality publication, it's also a feature length commercial to keep reading the entire Reign of the Supermen event. Heck, the very first page of the magazine is a full page ad for Adventures of Superman #500. And the Superman titles price guide at the back -- prompting for readers to start collecting DC for its investment potential as well. And it worked. The sales show that absolutely no new readers stuck around for the Funeral For a Friend storyline that followed Superman's death, but Reign of the Supermen will be a major seller, prompting DC to try the same thing with Batman, first paralyzing and replacing him, and then milking it into two more major story arcs after. After years of taking the spotlight away from DC, Wizard has finally given it back.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2015 12:44:58 GMT -5
Could have been bought and paid for. A special edition, I could see DC paying for that. Especially if Wizard was such a huge part of the market at the time.
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