|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2020 11:39:33 GMT -5
Forget about the multiple-earths aspect of COIE for the purposes of this question. Just in terms of Earth One alone, characters in different time periods witnessed the end of the world. How? if Sgt Rock witnessed the end of the world in WWII, how did the world make it to 1985 for characters in 1985 to witness it, and if they witnessed the end of Earth One in 1985, then how was there ever a Kamandi, or a Legion Of Superheroes? How often was the Red Sky Apocalypse a "fresh" event? Every 50 years? Every day?
The best analog to this which kind of made sense was Waid having Gog go back in time one day at a time, killing Superman every day. Maybe the answer is in there somewhere.
"Repeat to yourselves it's just a show, I should really just relax" - No! These are not the days for relaxing!
|
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2020 12:58:35 GMT -5
It's easy if you abandon the model of time as a river that normally flows only in one direction where each moment exists separately on a point on the river and once you travel past it, it is no longer happening, and adopt the model of time as an ocean existing in all places at once with tides and eddies moving through it, able to travel through it in any direction and occurring all simultaneously. It is only the limits of human perception that cause us to consider time as a unidirectional concept where only one moment in time can exist and all others are either done deals or potentials yet to happen.
It can all happen at once simply because time is not a river and it is all happening simultaneously, and not just during the crisis. The end of the world for Sgt. Rock isn't happening upriver from the end of the world in 1985, they are both happening in the vast ocean concurrently they just don't normally interact with each other because the ocean separates them, but the crisis is a tide or an eddie (or perhaps a hurricane) affecting the entire ocean at once.
-M
|
|
|
|
Post by thwhtguardian on Apr 6, 2020 16:12:40 GMT -5
It's easy if you abandon the model of time as a river that normally flows only in one direction where each moment exists separately on a point on the river and once you travel past it, it is no longer happening, and adopt the model of time as an ocean existing in all places at once with tides and eddies moving through it, able to travel through it in any direction and occurring all simultaneously. It is only the limits of human perception that cause us to consider time as a unidirectional concept where only one moment in time can exist and all others are either done deals or potentials yet to happen. It can all happen at once simply because time is not a river and it is all happening simultaneously, and not just during the crisis. The end of the world for Sgt. Rock isn't happening upriver from the end of the world in 1985, they are both happening in the vast ocean concurrently they just don't normally interact with each other because the ocean separates them, but the crisis is a tide or an eddie (or perhaps a hurricane) affecting the entire ocean at once. -M I haven't smoked since college but I think I need to take a hit now. |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2020 17:05:45 GMT -5
It's easy if you abandon the model of time as a river that normally flows only in one direction where each moment exists separately on a point on the river and once you travel past it, it is no longer happening, and adopt the model of time as an ocean existing in all places at once with tides and eddies moving through it, able to travel through it in any direction and occurring all simultaneously. It is only the limits of human perception that cause us to consider time as a unidirectional concept where only one moment in time can exist and all others are either done deals or potentials yet to happen. It can all happen at once simply because time is not a river and it is all happening simultaneously, and not just during the crisis. The end of the world for Sgt. Rock isn't happening upriver from the end of the world in 1985, they are both happening in the vast ocean concurrently they just don't normally interact with each other because the ocean separates them, but the crisis is a tide or an eddie (or perhaps a hurricane) affecting the entire ocean at once. -M I haven't smoked since college but I think I need to take a hit now. It's a concept of time that is at the core of a lot of speculative fiction and some fringe speculative sciences. I first encountered it in the early-mid 90s when I was tracking down influences for/references in stuff I was reading like Wilson & Shea's Illuminatus trilogy, Morrison's Invsibles, Eco's Foucault's Pendulum, and the more I searched through that stuff, the more often I encountered that model of time. -M |
|
|
|
Post by chadwilliam on Apr 6, 2020 17:12:15 GMT -5
I've wondered this too. mrp probably has the best answer, but even then you've got to figure that Earth 1 didn't end in 1986 making me wonder what happened to all those characters in 1987, 1988, 1989, and so on.
|
|
|
|
Post by profh0011 on Apr 6, 2020 18:14:52 GMT -5
George Perez is a guy who regularly "contributed" SO MUCH to every story he worked on, that he had the ability to make ALMOST every writer he ever worked with look MUCH better than they actually were. In some cases, he made them look like they KNEW WHAT THEY WERE DOING. I'm not so sure that worked with Marv Wolfman.  |
|
|
|
Post by Duragizer on Apr 6, 2020 20:47:23 GMT -5
The physics of COIE is a headache all around. How is the Anti-Monitor able to destroy an infinite multiverse? How is anyone able to travel back to the timeless state before existence and not simply wink out of being? If Earth-Prime was eradicated in 1985, how are we still here, reading this crap? Etc, etc, etc.
|
|
|
|
Post by dbutler69 on Apr 7, 2020 18:34:04 GMT -5
The physics of COIE is a headache all around. How is the Anti-Monitor able to destroy an infinite multiverse? How is anyone able to travel back to the timeless state before existence and not simply wink out of being? If Earth-Prime was eradicated in 1985, how are we still here, reading this crap? Etc, etc, etc. We're reading this in a "pocket universe". |
|
|
|
Post by Duragizer on Apr 7, 2020 19:19:52 GMT -5
The physics of COIE is a headache all around. How is the Anti-Monitor able to destroy an infinite multiverse? How is anyone able to travel back to the timeless state before existence and not simply wink out of being? If Earth-Prime was eradicated in 1985, how are we still here, reading this crap? Etc, etc, etc. We're reading this in a "pocket universe". Time Trapper's back to his games again, I see. |
|
|
|
Post by codystarbuck on Apr 7, 2020 19:59:10 GMT -5
Forget about the multiple-earths aspect of COIE for the purposes of this question. Just in terms of Earth One alone, characters in different time periods witnessed the end of the world. How? if Sgt Rock witnessed the end of the world in WWII, how did the world make it to 1985 for characters in 1985 to witness it, and if they witnessed the end of Earth One in 1985, then how was there ever a Kamandi, or a Legion Of Superheroes? How often was the Red Sky Apocalypse a "fresh" event? Every 50 years? Every day? The best analog to this which kind of made sense was Waid having Gog go back in time one day at a time, killing Superman every day. Maybe the answer is in there somewhere. "Repeat to yourselves it's just a show, I should really just relax" - No! These are not the days for relaxing! Two words: synchronized watches! |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2020 21:33:57 GMT -5
It's easy if you abandon the model of time as a river that normally flows only in one direction where each moment exists separately on a point on the river and once you travel past it, it is no longer happening, and adopt the model of time as an ocean existing in all places at once with tides and eddies moving through it, able to travel through it in any direction and occurring all simultaneously. It is only the limits of human perception that cause us to consider time as a unidirectional concept where only one moment in time can exist and all others are either done deals or potentials yet to happen. It can all happen at once simply because time is not a river and it is all happening simultaneously, and not just during the crisis. The end of the world for Sgt. Rock isn't happening upriver from the end of the world in 1985, they are both happening in the vast ocean concurrently they just don't normally interact with each other because the ocean separates them, but the crisis is a tide or an eddie (or perhaps a hurricane) affecting the entire ocean at once. -M If I ever fully grok this, I think it would cause the universe to collapse in on itself. Hmmm.. would such a collapse happen only at the moment of grokking, or would it collapse all across time? Maybe I don't wanna hear the answer. |
|
|
|
Post by Cei-U! on Apr 7, 2020 22:50:46 GMT -5
Marv Wolfman's scientific illiteracy (did/does he understand how freaking IMMENSE the universe is?) is one of the main reasons I hate COIE so very much.
Cei-U!
I summon Exhibit A!
|
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2020 0:40:31 GMT -5
Marv Wolfman's scientific illiteracy (did/does he understand how freaking IMMENSE the universe is?) is one of the main reasons I hate COIE so very much. Cei-U! I summon Exhibit A! Wolfman's inability to appreciate the scope of the universe can't be any worse than whoever decided that the Guardians divided it into only 3600 sectors. Exactly how many billions of galaxies is Jordan responsible for protecting? “Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space.” |
|
Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 9,533 
|
Post by Confessor on Apr 8, 2020 0:56:18 GMT -5
It's easy if you abandon the model of time as a river that normally flows only in one direction where each moment exists separately on a point on the river and once you travel past it, it is no longer happening, and adopt the model of time as an ocean existing in all places at once with tides and eddies moving through it, able to travel through it in any direction and occurring all simultaneously. It is only the limits of human perception that cause us to consider time as a unidirectional concept where only one moment in time can exist and all others are either done deals or potentials yet to happen. It can all happen at once simply because time is not a river and it is all happening simultaneously, and not just during the crisis. The end of the world for Sgt. Rock isn't happening upriver from the end of the world in 1985, they are both happening in the vast ocean concurrently they just don't normally interact with each other because the ocean separates them, but the crisis is a tide or an eddie (or perhaps a hurricane) affecting the entire ocean at once. -M I've read about this theory before and it has a fair amount of traction within the scientific community. But interestingly, it's also an idea that is very similar to how time is perceived in some Buddhist and Hindu teachings. |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2020 4:38:16 GMT -5
Here's some more on the physics of time... Does Time Really Flow? from Quantamagazine from the article... The rest of the article is heavily mathematical, so if dealing with numbers on a vast sale isn't your bag, then you might want to skip it, but the gist is that time as we perceive it flowing in one direction is an illusion but the physics of time are still debatable and in flux as different theories and mathematical formulas for describing time are bandied about. Lots of quantum mechanics and challenges to Einstein's traditional mathematical assumptions are thrown around in the article. -M |
|
