|
Post by beccabear67 on Jul 26, 2020 14:33:00 GMT -5
Korvac, The Beyonder... meh! I can't think of two less interesting or visually uninteresting characters. Early Korvac was decent but then he turned into some kind of misogynistic suburban tennis pro. I just have a big WTF reaction to all the many issues devoted to that later Korvac and the whole Beyonder business. So many many many pages of sterile running about and mostly superficial changes to the 'Marvel universe'. I liked Shooter's Legion from three different eras though a lot, so no kidding he probably belonged at DC!
|
|
|
Post by earl on Jul 26, 2020 21:42:23 GMT -5
There are some pretty skeevy 'somewhat modern' super hero comics. I think it probably started with stuff like the Ms. Marvel Avengers story and Frank Miller having Karen Page go porno but these are pretty bad.
Sin's Past Identity Crisis Old Man Logan (not necessarily the character, but the Hulk character...come on, just wrong).
and even one of my all time favorite comic writers Ed Brubaker's
X-men: Deadly Genesis
|
|
|
Post by beccabear67 on Jul 26, 2020 22:57:38 GMT -5
There are some pretty skeevy 'somewhat modern' super hero comics. I think it probably started with stuff like the Ms. Marvel Avengers story and Frank Miller having Karen Page go porno but these are pretty bad. Sin's Past Identity Crisis Old Man Logan (not necessarily the character, but the Hulk character...come on, just wrong). and even one of my all time favorite comic writers Ed Brubaker's X-men: Deadly Genesis Yeah, R rated superhero comics, you wouldn't think there would be much of a mass audience for that, it can be as weird a hybrid as X rated funny animals. I won't say it can't be done, or done well, but for the most part I don't think people with experience mainly in comic books and genre fiction are likely to come up with something not an awkward fit or capable of repelling a lot of actual adults away from specialist shops.
|
|
|
Post by earl on Jul 27, 2020 3:25:28 GMT -5
I think the part that they are so deep into youth culture as underoos and cartoons. It's just weird to think of something like the wide birth of difference between say New 52 Starfire and Tiny Titans Starfire.
I kinda think someone like Dick Giordano when given such a crazy but brilliant idea for the Charlton Heroes instead suggested to make it an it's own series and not have it direct use of the existing characters. Perhaps, he always hoped to maybe sell underoos and cartoons with those characters. Funny how it turns out, the adult themed product ended up the cash cow.
I'd always figured there has to be some nod with the Killing Joke's title back to the Monty Python "funniest joke in the world with a punch line so funny, it kills you". Kind of interesting parallel that in doing such adult super hero comics successfully, it eventually over took the genre in somewhat the same fashion.
I got a feeling at some point the encroaching darkness will become something the Marvel films creators have to avoid. I'd say a big reason the DC movies have not been as successful is that they are total bummers in a lot of ways, even if some of the TV shows and even ironically Watchmen against Alan Moore's wishes worked pretty well in the medium. And somehow Jack Kirby's family got paid eventually...weird series of events.
|
|
|
Post by badwolf on Jul 27, 2020 8:27:21 GMT -5
For me, the Avengers run killer is the Korvac Saga. I started reading the series from the beginning via the Essential black-and-white TPBs. I finished reading volume 7 before volume 8 was released, so I decided to pick the back issues of the Korvac Saga that follow where volume 7 left off. I had heard of the storyline, and it sounded interesting. It turned out to be awful when I read it. In my opinion, it was easily the worst run of the series to that point. I've read a bunch of issues past that point, by I didn't resume the systematic issue-by-issue read-through from the point I left off. I disliked the Korvac saga too when I finally read it in the premiere hardcover. "All-powerful" characters are so boring (and Shooter is obsessed with them!) So many bizarre moments like that time they all took the bus, and the issue where Ultron is hiding out in a nunnery. What?? And of course everybody dies but they come back.
The much-compressed What If...? story was much better.
|
|
|
Post by impulse on Jul 27, 2020 8:38:13 GMT -5
This one soured me on the X books, too. Another "Surprise, Xavier has a DARK EVIL BACKGROUND MUHAHAHAHA!!!! And bringing back a now-obscure character for an unnecessary shock value death!"
|
|
Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 9,544
Member is Online
|
Post by Confessor on Jul 27, 2020 10:44:53 GMT -5
Around that time, the wife wanted to read ASM so I added it to my then pull list and soon after, Sins Past started. She didn't have the background and long history with Gwen as myself other than knowing that she was Peter's first love who died. So, the story didn't have that much traumatizing effect upon her as it apparently did upon other long-time readers. (In fact, she liked the story for the reasons you've given, writing and art). Yeah, I definitely think that the way in which long-time fans of Spidey thought of Gwen -- you know, as the Saintly, doomed first true love of Peter Parker -- was 95% of the reason why most didn't like it. I don't think the story's faults were necessarily in the writing, drawing or general execution, it was what people brought to the story themselves that caused the outrage. A new-comer to Spidey's comic book world, like your wife, would be much more forgiving and see the story's merits without preconceived ideas or baggage. Myself, I was a long-time Spider-Man reader and firmly in the "Saint Gwen" fan club too, but I loved "Sins Past", so go figure. Also, it's worth noting that a lot of people who call "Sins Past" crap haven't actually read it. They've just read about what happens in it on the internet or somewhere and, let's face it, it does sound like a much crappier idea on paper than it is if you actually read it. Now, after she'd read it, I read the issue and my response was more along the lines of what are you doing?? I wasn't really outraged over these new revelations, it was more like why are you doing this now after so much time passing? This was back in what, '04, '05? I have all the respect and appreciation for JMS' writing in any medium but this struck me more as a stunt, a sales bump. If memory serves, JMS once said in an interview that [and I'm paraphrasing here, obviously] when you write action fiction like Spider-Man you're always trying to find rocks to throw at the hero... you know, giving him obstacles to overcome or problems to wrestle with. The biggest rock that he could find to throw at Peter was Gwen. I could be wrong, maybe JMS was building up to it in some regard. However I can't re-read this arc at the moment: I sold the lot of Sin Past issues on eBay awhile back. So for me at least, it was a sales bump. No, "Sins Past" wasn't built up to really. It did absolutely come out of nowhere, with the arrival of a mysterious letter from the deceased Gwen Stacy, written while she was in Paris, shortly before she died. But it was precisely the fact that the arrival of the letter was so shocking for both Peter and the reader that made the story so gripping right from the start. I'd said it before, and I'll say it again, "Sins Past" had me on the edge of my seat month after month, as it was coming out. For me, it was the most thrilling storyline of JMS' entire run...and that's a run that I consider to up there with the best of the post-Lee/Ditko/Romita ASM runs.
|
|
|
Post by impulse on Jul 27, 2020 13:28:23 GMT -5
No, "Sins Past" wasn't built up to really. It did absolutely come out of nowhere, with the arrival of a mysterious letter from the deceased Gwen Stacy, written while she was in Paris, shortly before she died. But it was precisely the fact that the arrival of the letter was so shocking for both Peter and the reader that made the story so gripping right from the start. I'd said it before, and I'll say it again, "Sins Past" had me on the edge of my seat month after month, as it was coming out. For me, it was the most thrilling storyline of JMS' entire run...and that's a run that I consider to up there with the best of the post-Lee/Ditko/Romita ASM runs. In addition to fans having a certain image already in mind, I think this added to why people didn't like it. It wasn't a built up natural part of the story, but rather felt like (and literally was) a heavy-handed stunt to kick up dirt with a "shocking" reveal about a long-past character. While that sort of think can occasionally work like with Brubaker bringing back Bucky as the Winter Soldier, that is the exception and not the rule in my experience. Usually it's more of a stunt as this was in the peak season of event fatigue.
It also kind of makes their world smaller, everyone knowing and being with everyone. I never followed Spidey regularly, but I can see why people didn't like it.
|
|
|
Post by james on Jul 27, 2020 14:10:12 GMT -5
You’re missing out on some good reading. The Fall of Hank Pym, Under Seige, most of 255-300 was good stuff. It's really not a conscious decision. I keep trying to read more, but my heart just isn't in it. I've read four subsequent issues in the past two years and keep trying to make myself read more. Under Siege is one of my top 5 storylines. But I wonder what if this storyline ran from 194-200? Perez art!
|
|
|
Post by The Captain on Jul 29, 2020 17:58:07 GMT -5
I've been reading Iron Man from the beginning, like Tales of Suspense beginning, and while it has had some periods that weren't the best, most of it has been readable.
Welp, I finally got to it. The last year of the original title, with the "Tony as Kang's puppet" and "Teen Tony" arcs, and if you've heard they were bad, that word doesn't even BEGIN to do justice to the awfulness. The first one is bad not because it is out of the blue, but also because one also HAS to read Avengers (OK), War Machine (mmmm...), and Force Works (dear God, why?!) to make even the slightest bit of "sense" of what is going on.
The Teen Tony story is bad because it's poorly-conceived, poorly-written, poorly-drawn, and just plain stupid. Whomever thought people wanted to read about Tony Stark going to college and pledging a fraternity, while simultaneously screwing up each and every time he put on the Iron Man armor, didn't know their audience very well. Thankfully, this was over quickly and the big heroes got shunted into Heroes Reborn, which led to Heroes Return, which I will be starting on later tonight or tomorrow.
Two arcs so bad, they not only ruined, but actually KILLED, an ongoing series of over 325 issues.
|
|
|
Post by Icctrombone on Jul 29, 2020 18:21:52 GMT -5
There are some pretty skeevy 'somewhat modern' super hero comics. I think it probably started with stuff like the Ms. Marvel Avengers story and Frank Miller having Karen Page go porno but these are pretty bad. Sin's Past Identity Crisis Old Man Logan (not necessarily the character, but the Hulk character...come on, just wrong).
and even one of my all time favorite comic writers Ed Brubaker's X-men: Deadly Genesis Uh, spoilers?
|
|
|
Post by Icctrombone on Jul 29, 2020 18:27:52 GMT -5
It's really not a conscious decision. I keep trying to read more, but my heart just isn't in it. I've read four subsequent issues in the past two years and keep trying to make myself read more. Under Siege is one of my top 5 storylines. But I wonder what if this storyline ran from 194-200? Perez art! If you're implying that Perez could have done a better job than Big John Buscema, he couldn't.
|
|
|
Post by Icctrombone on Jul 29, 2020 18:31:07 GMT -5
I've been reading Iron Man from the beginning, like Tales of Suspense beginning, and while it has had some periods that weren't the best, most of it has been readable. Welp, I finally got to it. The last year of the original title, with the "Tony as Kang's puppet" and "Teen Tony" arcs, and if you've heard they were bad, that word doesn't even BEGIN to do justice to the awfulness. The first one is bad not because it is out of the blue, but also because one also HAS to read Avengers (OK), War Machine (mmmm...), and Force Works (dear God, why?!) to make even the slightest bit of "sense" of what is going on. The Teen Tony story is bad because it's poorly-conceived, poorly-written, poorly-drawn, and just plain stupid. Whomever thought people wanted to read about Tony Stark going to college and pledging a fraternity, while simultaneously screwing up each and every time he put on the Iron Man armor, didn't know their audience very well. Thankfully, this was over quickly and the big heroes got shunted into Heroes Reborn, which led to Heroes Return, which I will be starting on later tonight or tomorrow. Two arcs so bad, they not only ruined, but actually KILLED, an ongoing series of over 325 issues. This was all part of the abomination called " Avengers the Crossing".
|
|
|
Post by berkley on Jul 29, 2020 21:26:55 GMT -5
For me, the Avengers run killer is the Korvac Saga. I started reading the series from the beginning via the Essential black-and-white TPBs. I finished reading volume 7 before volume 8 was released, so I decided to pick the back issues of the Korvac Saga that follow where volume 7 left off. I had heard of the storyline, and it sounded interesting. It turned out to be awful when I read it. In my opinion, it was easily the worst run of the series to that point. I've read a bunch of issues past that point, by I didn't resume the systematic issue-by-issue read-through from the point I left off. I disliked the Korvac saga too when I finally read it in the premiere hardcover. "All-powerful" characters are so boring (and Shooter is obsessed with them!) So many bizarre moments like that time they all took the bus, and the issue where Ultron is hiding out in a nunnery. What?? And of course everybody dies but they come back.
The much-compressed What If...? story was much better.
Funny you mention that about Shooter's obsession with all-powerful characters - I remember quite a few years back now, probably in the early 2000s, reading Shooter's proposal for a sequel to the Korvac saga: there was a pretty detailed plot description that didn't sound all that bad, really, as long as you weren't expecting much more than an entertaining traditional superhero team story, but the whole thing hinged on a new adversary that was, you guessed it, even more powerful than Michael/Korvac.
But it isn't just Shooter. Lots of superhero writers are hooked on this kind of unimaginative one-upmanship, which is one reason (though far from the only one) why so many of these near-omnipotent characters end up being drained of all dramatic effect over time.
|
|
|
Post by impulse on Jul 30, 2020 9:17:49 GMT -5
But it isn't just Shooter. Lots of superhero writers are hooked on this kind of unimaginative one-upmanship, which is one reason (though far from the only one) why so many of these near-omnipotent characters end up being drained of all dramatic effect over time.
Not just in raw power, either. This one-upsmanship has also made at least one character I know of absurd - the Joker. As they keep escalating the amount of carnage and slaughter every time he repeatedly escapes from Arkham, it makes Batman/the police/justice system look increasingly awful for not finding a more permanent solution. I'm not even necessarily saying Batman should go nuts and kill him directly (though it's increasingly difficult to imagine he wouldn't considering the personal toll on Batman's circle due to him), but at some people he should be put into a maximum security prison, some federal space, or even executed by the state. Again, I'm not saying this would make for a good story. I'm moreso pointing out how they've painted themselves into a corner with this poor technique, and now the situation is just ridiculous. These are not all my ideas, mind you. I've picked up a lot of it from some comic forum or other (not sure if here or the other other place) but it makes sense to me.
|
|