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Post by rberman on Aug 1, 2020 16:05:31 GMT -5
I've run across a lot of people online who strongly feel nothing in Spider-Man was worth reading, once John Romita took over from Steve Ditko. Really. Could I hazard a guess as to the demographic of those "lot of people"? People often get attached to the way something was when they were kids.
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Post by berkley on Aug 1, 2020 16:28:43 GMT -5
I think there's no doubt it became a different book once Ditko left. Like it or not, there's no denying that Ditko had a unique style and that he influenced the writing as well as the artwork during his time on the series. I grew up mostly with the Romita Spider-Man but came to appreciate the Ditko stuff early on in reprints, so I like them both. But they are different.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 9,549
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Post by Confessor on Aug 1, 2020 17:04:47 GMT -5
I've run across a lot of people online who strongly feel nothing in Spider-Man was worth reading, once John Romita took over from Steve Ditko. Really. Well yeah, there are a lot of ill-informed or just plain crazy people out there on the Internet.
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Post by earl on Aug 1, 2020 19:07:17 GMT -5
Korvac was one of those stories that got me hooked on the Avengers as a kid. I always figured 'back in the day' that the Beyonder was tied into Korvac or was Korvac, but it did not go that way.
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Post by sabongero on Aug 1, 2020 21:02:57 GMT -5
I bounced back with the "Back in Black" Spider-Man titles crossover with the Sensational Spider-Man and Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man at the time. Then One More Day happened, and all that time I invested in the Peter Parker / Mary Jane relationship went down the tubes. And I haven't read any since with the exception of the Otto Octavius Superior Spider-Man. I was quite the opposite. Sins Past really upset me but didn't actually stop my buying. Back in Black is what finally broke me on Spider-Man, albeit very briefly. I never finished it or read anything between the start of Back in Black and the start of Brand New Day. Brand New Day is what brought me back. For me, the problem was that Aunt May was dead. And it was a good death. And then she was alive again, and that upset me, but I pushed forward. And now suddenly she was dying again and I just had no way to emotionally invest in that. Meanwhile, Civil War convinced me it was time for my completist mentality to end. Once I decided not to finish buying the Civil War series, I realized that just because I owned every Spider-Man comic for the previous 40 years didn't mean I needed to buy the next one. So I didn't. Starting with Brand New Day, which I think is really good, I've been buying Spider-Man in trade, usually a couple years behind in my reading. I liked the ramifications of Peter Parker's public reveal of his secret identity. And that's how it should be presented, hunted by his enemies and others who despise Spider-Man. And what better way to go after him, than go after his loved ones. And the change on Peter Parker being more darker because of this. But then... Mephisto. That broke the camel's back... until several years later with Otto Octavius as the Superior Spider-Man.
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Post by Duragizer on Aug 2, 2020 20:26:56 GMT -5
The resurrection of Jean Grey put me off Marvel for more than a decade. It didn't just ruin a run, it ruined the entire Marvel Universe for me. Cei-U! I summon the turning point! Byrne's run on the Spidey titles in the '90s did this for me.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Aug 2, 2020 23:54:46 GMT -5
Back right before Heroes reborn was when I was just starting to discover comic fandom... and knowing who writers and artists were and such.... Terry Kavanaugh (and Ben Raab) were the names I cringed every time I saw them... not sure if you'd call that a run or just a series of fill ins but it sure was horrible. I liked Century! He popped up in a semi-comedic role while Wonder Man was doing his pacifist thing... made me happy that he was still alive
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Post by Chris on Aug 3, 2020 0:43:22 GMT -5
those issues that were so bad, so appallingly out of character, so forced, so unbelievable, or just otherwise so wrong or out of place they utterly ruined the story/run/title More like a different kind of storm, if you know what I mean.
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Post by badwolf on Aug 3, 2020 9:43:28 GMT -5
Reading this thread, you wouldn't know that the Korvac Saga is widely considered the high point of the most acclaimed era of Avengers. Hell, Shooter won an award for it. Maybe it doesn't hold up today, over 40 years later, but come on. Are some posters here being contrarian maybe? No, I genuinely didn't like it. And it wasn't that it was hyped up too much or anything, it was just poor. I agree with Cei-U that Shooter's second run on the book was much better.
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Post by tarkintino on Aug 3, 2020 9:44:44 GMT -5
The editorial sabotage that was the character assassination of Gwen Stacy in the 6-Part "Sins Past" storyline. Agreed. "Sins Past" was typical of some writers who believe they are being "dark" or "edgy" by subverting longtime or well-appreciated older characters with behavior never even hinted at by the creators. I do not consider that any part of the real ASM run at all. Speaking of Gwen Stacy in association with the thread topic, the original, so-called "clone saga" ruined one of comic's strongest runs. Whether one considers the plot starting with the 1st appearance of the Jackal ( The Amazing Spider-Man #129, with its saving grace being the introduction of the Punisher), or the 1st appearance of Gwen's clone (as a cameo Parker mistakes for one of Mysterio's illusions) in #142, the 21-issue run of all things clone was a terrible idea born from what Lee once said was a desire to resurrect Gwen after her death upset so many fans; Conway's "solution" was the 'ol bait and switch, with a silly pseudo-scientific plot mixed with psychological torture of Parker that wore thin quickly, and ended like a low budget 50s sci-fi movie where things happened "just because." That ending--with Peter questioning whether or not he was his original self, and Gwen's clone ultimately not wanting to pick up where she and Peter left off in 1973, was supposed to weigh on the hearts of readers who had faithfully followed Spider-Man for a decade-plus, but aside from the aforementioned low-budget 50s sci-fi feel, it was just a crass bit of manipulation that could have soiled what came before it. Thankfully, that did not happen in that Bronze Age era of the comic. Although I have all of those issues, I cannot recall the last time I wanted to read that original clone plot. Its just that much of crater-sized interruption of a fantastic, consistent period of The Amazing Spider-Man that had run for several years.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2020 14:04:50 GMT -5
Reading this thread, you wouldn't know that the Korvac Saga is widely considered the high point of the most acclaimed era of Avengers. Hell, Shooter won an award for it. Maybe it doesn't hold up today, over 40 years later, but come on. Are some posters here being contrarian maybe? No, I genuinely didn't like it. And it wasn't that it was hyped up too much or anything, it was just poor. I agree with Cei-U that Shooter's second run on the book was much better. And for me, Shooter's second run was terrible and led me to drop Avengers and comics as a whole for a couple of years. It also didn't help I was really getting into D&D at the time which took most of my hobby time and money, but that second Shooter run started when I had a mail subscription to Avengers and I chose not to renew it or go look for issues when it was done. I eventually read it all when I read through my then complete run of Avengers and it was such a terrible slog for me. None of the characters felt right, they all felt like they were doing what Shooter forced them to do rather than what the nature of the characters would have rightly done. They essentially became plot puppets with angsty barnacles to try to make it interesting rather than fleshed out characters who were interesting to read. But to each his own. Now I liked the Krovac saga and Shooter's first run a lot, but I was in the 8-10 range when I first discovered it and that colors a lot of my perspective on it. -M
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Post by badwolf on Aug 3, 2020 17:59:45 GMT -5
No, I genuinely didn't like it. And it wasn't that it was hyped up too much or anything, it was just poor. I agree with Cei-U that Shooter's second run on the book was much better. And for me, Shooter's second run was terrible and led me to drop Avengers and comics as a whole for a couple of years. It also didn't help I was really getting into D&D at the time which took most of my hobby time and money, but that second Shooter run started when I had a mail subscription to Avengers and I chose not to renew it or go look for issues when it was done. I eventually read it all when I read through my then complete run of Avengers and it was such a terrible slog for me. None of the characters felt right, they all felt like they were doing what Shooter forced them to do rather than what the nature of the characters would have rightly done. They essentially became plot puppets with angsty barnacles to try to make it interesting rather than fleshed out characters who were interesting to read. But to each his own. Now I liked the Krovac saga and Shooter's first run a lot, but I was in the 8-10 range when I first discovered it and that colors a lot of my perspective on it. -M Yeah, I mean I'm not going to say that they're classics either, I don't think he writes good dialogue, and I do have problems with characterization (particularly my gal Tigra) but I think the overall stories are better.
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Post by tarkintino on Aug 4, 2020 7:24:51 GMT -5
I've run across a lot of people online who strongly feel nothing in Spider-Man was worth reading, once John Romita took over from Steve Ditko. Really. Thankfully, the title's continuing popularity meant those Ditko loyalists were in the minority.
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Post by impulse on Aug 4, 2020 9:29:50 GMT -5
Yeah, Spider-Man seems to have withstood the test of time despite the worst villain of all...bad writing (at times).
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Post by String on Aug 4, 2020 17:34:05 GMT -5
I think sites like CBR and Newsarama may have the Korvac Saga listed in some of their previous clickbait lists of best Avengers stories of all time. Maybe...that's the only places I can think of where I may have come across such high praise for it.
I'd never read it so when Marvel released a new trade collection of it awhile back, I bought it and read it. I remember liking it but that's about it. Although for the record, I would take any issue of the Avengers by Shooter (up to and including #200) over any issue of the Avengers by Bendis.
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