shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,754
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Post by shaxper on Aug 24, 2020 9:45:25 GMT -5
I always hate when a favorite artist downshifts from providing full pencils to doing breakdowns with another artist finishing for them. I first became aware of this practice with George Perez's work on the New Teen Titans, but I'm assuming it's a practice that goes back further than that. Does anyone have any insights as to when this began and/or who started it?
Perhaps, in the years before it was standard practice to credit writers and artists, it was already commonplace?
If not, I could see Joe Orlando providing breakdowns on books he edited for DC in the late 1960s. I know he was heavily involved in cover layouts.
Or perhaps Kirby did this during Marvel's 1968 expansion, which saw Kirby leaving several books he'd been working on from day one while Lee had convinced droves of fans to keep coming back for Kirby's art?
Or maybe it was originally a deadline issue that gradually evolved into a standard practice?
I'm curious to learn more.
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Post by MDG on Aug 24, 2020 9:59:13 GMT -5
I think it was essentially standard in the early days of comics when there were studios churning out pages by the dozens. There was one studio (Iger?) where they would rubber stamp the back with the tasks and artists would initial what they provided: layout, pencil figures, pencil backgrounds, ink figures, ink backgrounds, letters.
From the publishers' POV, layouts are probably the most important piece.
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Crimebuster
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Making comics!
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Post by Crimebuster on Aug 24, 2020 10:56:54 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure Kirby was doing this a lot in the early days of the MU - like 63, 64 - doing layouts on tons of books to establish the Marvel art style. Even books with good, pro artists. I can't swear to any examples off the top of my head, but I think he might have done some layouts on Avenegrs when Heck took over? Memory tells me Kirby had his fingers in all sorts of books at that time.
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 24, 2020 11:18:06 GMT -5
Kirby definitely did breakdowns for Heck, as he spoke in interviews that Heck was uncomfortable laying out the story, at first. Kirby provided him layouts and breakdowns to get him started, until he was comfortable doing it himself.
Definitely goes back to the shops of the 30s and 40s, as they did everything assembly line fashion. It's similar to the production process in line animation, as the directors would draw key scenes and the "in-betweeners" would do the drawings linking the scenes, creating the movement. The drawings were then sent to the ink & paint department, to be transferred to cels, for photographing.
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Post by Cei-U! on Aug 24, 2020 11:57:47 GMT -5
It did begin in the late '30s with the shops (or, as I refer to them in my book, packaging services). It was not uncommon for one artist to provide rough breakdowns for the studio's entire output. Jack Binder did this during his days at the Chesler shop (as did his replacement, Charles Sultan). When Binder started his own studio, he continued the practice, which is why the GCD credits him with producing more pages of art than one man could possibly produce in a month doing full pencils. The idea was that new, young artist swould learn storytelling by working from the experienced artist's layouts until her or she was ready to go out on his/her own. This was also Stan Lee's thinking in the '60s, which is why Kirby provided layouts for artsts who were either new to the medium (like Steranko) or were unfamiliar with Marvel-style (i.e., plot-first) storytelling (like John Buscema, John Romita, and Gil Kane).
Cei-U! I summon the backstory!
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Post by brutalis on Aug 24, 2020 12:01:01 GMT -5
Why wouldn't a company want to utilize solid and proven artists capable of laying out a story's flow with dynamic action? If a new artist still learning the trade and craft of storytelling has "flaws" then they can personalize or adapt what they are given while experimenting and growing their skills. Let a Kirby, Sal Buscema, John Buscema, Ross Andru show the way to new talent where we wouldn't end up with all these talking heads, repeated sequential panels and difficult to follow pages.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2020 12:18:06 GMT -5
It's also quite common in other commercial art fields where someone designs the piece via layouts/breakdowns and other artists execute the actual art. We tend to forget that comics are commercial art and many of the pros who worked in the field view(ed) it that way and not as "art" and all the baggage that entails, while most fans want to think of comics as "art" as a validation of their interest in it. It leads to a lot of cognitive dissonance when looking at the actual production of comics by some fans.
-M
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Post by MDG on Aug 24, 2020 12:35:29 GMT -5
It's also quite common in other commercial art fields where someone designs the piece via layouts/breakdowns and other artists execute the actual art. We tend to forget that comics are commercial art and many of the pros who worked in the field view(ed) it that way and not as "art" and all the baggage that entails, while most fans want to think of comics as "art" as a validation of their interest in it. It leads to a lot of cognitive dissonance when looking at the actual production of comics by some fans. -M ^^^^ Yeah--it also doesn;t help when fans look at artists and writers as "holy creatures" and any editorial changes--or even guidance--is seen as "interference" that "ruins" the story. (A good editor would take me to task for the overuse of quotation marks in this post."
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Post by profh0011 on Aug 24, 2020 13:27:49 GMT -5
The general rule of thumb is this:
If an artist is supplying "THUMBNAILS"-- they're the one WRITING THE STORY.
I understand this was common in the Golden Age. Will Eisner did it a lot on "THE SPIRIT" Sunday section. Jack Kirby did it with many artists who worked for him. Harvey Kurtzman regularly supplied layouts along with FULL SCRIPT which was lettered on the pages before the stories were even pencilled.
At 60s Marvel, there was a stretch where Kirby began doing layouts on multiple books. It was a way for his boss to SQUEEZE more unpaid writing out of him. Many fans to this day don't realize, that until Jim Steranko started doing his own layouts, JACK KIRBY was the writer on "NICK FURY AGENT OF SHIELD". (And Kirby's writing on that series was FAR superior to Steranko's. It's just that the art was inconsistent, and less flashy, due to the merry-go-round of artists who worked on his run.)
Oddly enough, in the 70s, Don McGregor was supplying layouts along with FINISHED SCRIPTS to all his stories. That's why, no matter who was assigned to illustrate the stories, it never affected the content or quality. Not that long ago, McGregor revealed that he was shocked to learn, after all these years, that "editorial" (translation: Roy Thomas) held McGregor and his work IN CONTEMPT. Why? Simple. Don was BUCKING THE SYSTEM.
When Andy Helfer took over as editor of "JUSTICE LEAGUE", the smartest thing he did was to utilize Keith Giffen's BEST talents: story & layouts. In many ways, to me, Keith NEVER really learned how to draw properly. So having him do layouts for "REAL" illustrators (including, for a short time, ADAM HUGHES!) was a stroke of brilliance.
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Post by tarkintino on Aug 24, 2020 15:18:05 GMT -5
Romita provided layouts for endless Marvel artists--from Mooney and some Andru issues on Amazing Spider-Man, to cover breakdowns on Conan the Barbarian, The Defenders, Chamber of Chills, Captain America, and more titles than one would imagine, which is why so many Marvel covers would seem to have his kind of layout or touches, but were credited to other artists.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2020 15:31:15 GMT -5
Romita provided layouts for endless Marvel artists--from Mooney and some Andru issues on Amazing Spider-Man, to cover breakdowns on Conan the Barbarian, The Defenders, Chamber of Chills, Captain America, and more titles than one would imagine, which is why so many Marvel covers would seem to have his kind of layout or touches, but were credited to other artists. That was when he was essentially the art director correct? And that's what an art director is supposed to do in commercial art. -M
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Post by MDG on Aug 24, 2020 15:33:24 GMT -5
The general rule of thumb is this: If an artist is supplying "THUMBNAILS"-- they're the one WRITING THE STORY. Depends what you mean--if they're supplying thumbnails from a plot (or nothing), yeah they're writing. But they could also be drawing breakdowns for another artist based on a full script. Harvey Kurtzman regularly supplied layouts along with FULL SCRIPT which was lettered on the pages before the stories were even pencilled. This is a little backward--Feldstein gave the artists boards that were already lettered, but pretty much let them do what they wanted from there. He may have reviewed pencils before the artist inked the story.
Kurtzman provided tight layouts with the words indicated, but would review (and correct) pencils before they went to the letterer (Ben Oda) then back to the artist for inks.
When Andy Helfer took over as editor of " JUSTICE LEAGUE", the smartest thing he did was to utilize Keith Giffen's BEST talents: story & layouts.... Totally agree ... In many ways, to me, Keith NEVER really learned how to draw properly. Totally disagree
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 24, 2020 22:19:38 GMT -5
It's also quite common in other commercial art fields where someone designs the piece via layouts/breakdowns and other artists execute the actual art. We tend to forget that comics are commercial art and many of the pros who worked in the field view(ed) it that way and not as "art" and all the baggage that entails, while most fans want to think of comics as "art" as a validation of their interest in it. It leads to a lot of cognitive dissonance when looking at the actual production of comics by some fans. -M It was also a regular aspect of newspaper strips, as artists had assistants and "ghosts" doing the work, to meet deadlines. It's a heck of a lot easier to have full artistic expression when you are doing a painting or an original work and can concentrate as much time as necessary; it's quite another to meet a monthly, weekly, or daily deadline. Even great artists, like NC Wyeth and Maxfield Parrish had to make alterations and corrections and even Michaelangelo used assistants to paint his frescoes. Alexandre Dumas employed writers to work on segments of his stories, but he provided plots and edited, much like modern writers like James Patterson and Tom Clancy (especially on those military reference books he "wrote").
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Post by BigPapaJoe on Aug 24, 2020 22:44:41 GMT -5
This is why Kirby could do "12 PAGES IN A DAY!!!".
I also hate artists just breaking down the pencils so someone else could finish them. Feels like it really cheapens the experience. I don't care who it is, I don't want half of one artist and half of another artist doing the drawing. Just seems like it really limits the authenticity of both artists.
But at the end of the day it's just another bitter reminder that this is a business first.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2020 22:48:23 GMT -5
This is why Kirby could do "12 PAGES IN A DAY!!!". I also hate artists just breaking down the pencils so someone else could finish them. Feels like it really cheapens the experience. I don't care who it is, I don't want half of one artist and half of another artist doing the drawing. Just seems like it really limits the authenticity of both artists. But at the end of the day it's just another bitter reminder that this is a business first. Of course you could say the same thing about one artist pencilling and another inking as well. It's still half and half. -M
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