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Post by Icctrombone on Oct 22, 2020 16:52:03 GMT -5
Wow. Much as I enjoyed the first part of this conversation, you both dropped so much wisdom on this one. Your emphasis on the humans at the heart of the team was so important. I especially loved Icctrombone pointing out all the points of no return for Hank, any one of which would have changed everything if events had played out slightly differently. And both of you discussing the team's revelation that it's necessary to start getting involved in one another's lives. Interesting though, as Scott keeps drawing recurring themes throughout this run, that the moral of #220 seems to be "Don't get involved if it isn't your business". Hmmmm. Two things I'd like to add to this conversation: 1. I LIKE Tigra. Much as Shooter is putting the humans in this run first and foremost, the original Avengers are far less fleshed out human beings than the team they have just replaced. Tigra was so very very human, and I found that endearing. I was truly sad when she left. The original 4 other Avengers have the closest relationship to Hank, much more so than the members that left in # 211 , with the exception of Hawkeye. It felt like a story involving the founders would have much more impact seeing as they worked with him from the beginning .
2. And that brings me to my second point. You both pointed out the amount of fill-in creators and issues in this run, but I think the chaos goes further than that. It's strange just how haphazardly organized this run is. Why did Moondragon try to assemble a new Avengers team in #211? We never learn. Why were the phone lines to Avengers Mansion cut, and by who? Going further, introducing a new team in #211 and then doing another membership drive only ten issues later?? I certainly didn't get the impression until the arbitrary end of #220 that Tigra was going anywhere. It's safe to assume that all the events surrounding the membership brawl were caused by Moondragon including any phone line problems. You can also speculate that her trying to control the outcome of the audition was because she might need them to quell any uprising with the planet that she took over in issue # 219/ 220. The membership drive 10 issues later was necessary because they lost Hank and Tigra and were left with 4 members. I don't think Moondragon anticipated them being left with only 4 Avengers.
And there are smaller inconsistencies too for someone as calculating and consistent as Shooter normally is. For example, when Hank steals the adamantium, the story plays up how precious and rare the material is. So how the hell did Hank drum up the parts for a giant adamantium robot on the fly? Even with Jan's limitless money, where was he going to get it? How does anyone get anything like adamantium ? You can fill in the blanks with the Avengers and Hank having ties to the US government and Wakanda. I don't believe that the robot used in issue # 211 was pure adamantium.
Oh, and am I the only one who found Molecule Man's powers absurdly inconsistent? He can restore Thor's Hammer to perfect magical working order, but he can't do plumbing (which, by the way, was hilarious)? Roquefort Raider did an excellent job explaining that question. Besides that, there comes a certain amount of suspension of disbelief with these comics. It's easier for me to accept a fantasy made up character like the Molecule man than a person with no powers fighting criminals and never getting shot.
I totally see what you are both saying about this run. It is mind-bogglingly mature, not just for the era, but for today as well. It's also messy as all hell. I wish I knew why there were so many different artists on this run. I'd hate to think that no one wanted to work with Shooter. I mean, he didn't become Godzilla until a few years later. Or maybe he did? |
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
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Post by shaxper on Oct 22, 2020 17:45:10 GMT -5
The original 4 other Avengers have the closest relationship to Hank, much more so than the members that left in # 211 , with the exception of Hawkeye. It felt like a story involving the founders would have much more impact seeing as they worked with him from the beginning . Oh, no argument there. As you said in the episode, Shooter had a story he wanted to tell, and so he did what he needed to in order to make it happen. I was just explaining that this cleaning house was why Tigra was so welcome in my book. She had the multiple sides, personality quirks, and flawed nature that weren't as rich in the other characters. Sure, they had them, but not in abundance. She didn't seem to want anything to do with the Avengers in #219-220, nor did she have any difficulty controlling the entire planet without them. She was ready to take her mind-control to the galaxy. It was only trying to control the indominatable will of Drax, all the Avengers, AND Thor while Iron Man was using his armor to cancel out her telepathy that exhausted her. Her involvement in #211 and the cut phone lines speak to me of aborted directions that Shooter had considered and ultimately not pursued for whatever reason. Maybe he was just that busy. Maybe there were too many cooks in the kitchen. [/b][/quote] Sure, but I mean...chaotic planning. A membership drive less than a year after a membership drive? This used to be an incredibly rare thing to happen in the pages of The Avengers. It wouldn't have bothered me if the story hadn't made such a big deal about its scarcity, and I'm pretty sure #213 did say it was all adamantium. It's precisely because Shooter takes such pains to inject realism into the title that the things that aren't realistic and logical pop out all the more. I wouldn't be paying attention to the question of why The Molecular Man can repair God-level magic if Shooter wasn't pointing out that he can't do plumbing and circuitry. [/quote] I enjoy Shooter almost as much as you do, but my theory about him has always been that when you become a professional comic writer at the age of 13 and are managing the biggest comic book company in existence by the age of 25, it's hard to understand humility. Most of us learned how to be a team player and balance our own pride with the perspectives of others in our teens and twenties. Shooter rocketed past all that on the fast-track to comic book stardom. Shooter was better than many of the people he was managing, and he unfortunately knew it. I think he reigned with a heavy hand and dismissed folks whenever he saw fit. In short, I don't think folks were choosing to leave the title -- I think Shooter had been dismissing people who weren't taking the title exactly where he wanted it to go ever since #200. I would read any story Shooter ever wrote. I would never ever work for the man. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Oct 23, 2020 8:55:48 GMT -5
About adamantium in that story arc... one thing was mentioned that I thought was very cool at the time : when Hank goes to steal adamantium from a government site under the instructions of Egghead, he's not getting a lump of super-hard metal but "adamantium resin". As if the metal was like epoxy, and could be kept in a malleable form until you added something to it to make it super-solid.
That was the kind of explanation Shooter would come up with; after all, how could people fashion adamantium into claws, robots or super-suits if it was so strong that it is essentially indestructible? Making it an epoxy-like compound would explain how you could make things out of it without resorting to ridiculous amounts of energy.
I wouldn't have used the word "resin", though, as that's not the way metals work. A parallel with bronze (in which soft copper is mixed with just the right proportion of even softer tin to create the much harder bronze) would have been more appropriate. But hey, it was a good effort!
Has the concept ever been used since? Do we know how adamantium is shaped, when Magneto isn't around to liquify it?
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Post by EdoBosnar on Oct 23, 2020 14:18:58 GMT -5
(...) Has the concept ever been used since? Do we know how adamantium is shaped, when Magneto isn't around to liquify it? I may be misremembering this, as I no longer have the issue, but I recall that in an issue of Hulk from the 1980s during Mantlo's run, in which Alicia Masters made a statue of the Hulk out of adamantium, and was able to do so because she had a vibranium chisel. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Oct 23, 2020 14:43:37 GMT -5
(...) Has the concept ever been used since? Do we know how adamantium is shaped, when Magneto isn't around to liquify it? I may be misremembering this, as I no longer have the issue, but I recall that in an issue of Hulk from the 1980s during Mantlo's run, in which Alicia Masters made a statue of the Hulk out of adamantium, and was able to do so because she had a vibranium chisel. That sounds like typical Mantlo science!  |
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Post by Prince Hal on Oct 24, 2020 15:33:31 GMT -5
I may be misremembering this, as I no longer have the issue, but I recall that in an issue of Hulk from the 1980s during Mantlo's run, in which Alicia Masters made a statue of the Hulk out of adamantium, and was able to do so because she had a vibranium chisel. That sounds like typical Mantlo science! And also settles what happens when an unstoppable vibranium force meets an immovable adamantium object. |
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Post by spoon on Nov 4, 2020 11:31:29 GMT -5
I finally get done reading the last issue of part 2 (Avengers #220), and then part 3 drops the next day. Here's my bit of catch-up. Two things I'd like to add to this conversation: 1. I LIKE Tigra. Much as Shooter is putting the humans in this run first and foremost, the original Avengers are far less fleshed out human beings than the team they have just replaced. Tigra was so very very human, and I found that endearing. I was truly sad when she left. I agree. I was never particularly interested in Tigra from the West Coast Avengers comics I've read, but she seems interesting here. I get from the podcast that she was meant by Shooter for a short stint for a specific purpose, but she gets some of the best character development bits. So far I haven't been as enthusiastic with the portrayals of the Big Three in these issues as Crimebuster and Icctrombone. I do like the Wasp and Yellowjacket parts a little more, although Shooter does lean on portraying Jan as a ditz too much in my opinion. I'm someone who likes the Avengers who don't have long ongoing books, like Vision or Captain Marvel (Monica Rambeau). I like Avengers rosters that have a mix of different kinds of members, so the Big Three plus Wasp is a little lacking to me. Yes. It doesn't keep like great planning to have Moondragon plotting something, then comes back within a year, with no payoff to her past plot. Maybe Shooter figured that new roster issues sell well, so he might as well get two done in a short period of time. But when the team decides to slim down their roster, it should be anticipated that injury or some other circumstance might bring the roster too low. If Molecule Man can't even transform organic matter, it seems like a stretch to so easily destroy and recreate Mjolnir which is enchanted and the Silver Surfer's board which is embued with the power cosmic. I did like the mystery and twist of the Moondragon two-parter. It filled the plotholes that confused me at first. |
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Crimebuster
CCF Podcast Guru
Making comics!
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Post by Crimebuster on Dec 28, 2020 13:57:30 GMT -5
The video version of this is now available to watch:
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Post by badwolf on Jan 8, 2021 16:59:46 GMT -5
I listened to the podcast and noticed that CB edited out the comments on issue # 218. It's okay because it was a pure fill-in issue written by De Matteis drawn my Don Perlin and inked by diverse hands. In a nutshell, it involves a boy that is immortal and comes to the Avengers wanting to end his life because , although he cannot die, his life has been unspectacular and he is tired of being reborn as a baby only to die an old man over and over again.  The Assemblers fail in trying to find a way to help him and he loses patience and leaves to stow away in rocket launch in hopes of ending his existence. He is transformed by the flight into space and comes back as a huge flame Monster which the Avengers have to put down. Thor uses his hammer against him expecting that he won't survive Mjolnirs assault but he does and is back to being a boy seemingly cured. The only comment I remember making about this issue from the interview was that he almost got raped by Laurel and Hardy.   It might not have had great art but I like this issue. Morgan MacNeil Hardy was a recurring character of J.M.'s who also appeared in Spider-Woman and Captain America, and was referenced in The Defenders. I thought his story was interesting. |
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Post by badwolf on Jan 8, 2021 17:02:21 GMT -5
You could skip to 211 and not miss a thing. Those stories between 202-210 have never been referenced since they've been published. Doesn't mean they're not enjoyable. Nice art by Infantino and Colan, too (not to mention some rare Don Newton art for Marvel). |
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Post by badwolf on Jan 8, 2021 17:07:42 GMT -5
I love Tigra but I didn't understand why Shooter brought her in only to have her leave a few issues later because the enemies the Avengers fought were scary.
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Post by Hoosier X on Jun 20, 2021 14:56:18 GMT -5
Tigra is awesome.
The vibranium chisel is cracking me up!
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Post by spoon on Jun 20, 2021 16:25:41 GMT -5
I love Tigra but I didn't understand why Shooter brought her in only to have her leave a few issues later because the enemies the Avengers fought were scary. Maybe he didn't like the character. I guess the charitable explanation is that he thought a super-hero out of her depth would be a new different sort of story. I recently read Avengers #231-254, and now I'm continuing on West Coast Avengers, so I'm getting to see the Tigra stories after Roger Stern brought her back into the fold. Stern made her a solid member of the team. Englehart is portraying her as having issues, but at least he gives an explanation. He has her cat nature and human nature at odds. Now that I've been reading a solid bunch of Tigra stories, she's a more interesting character than when I just read an odd issue here or there. I recently bought an omnibus (Women of Marvel) that has some of her earliest appearances, so I'm interested in seeing how Shooter and other later versions match up with the early portrayals of the character. |
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Post by badwolf on Jun 20, 2021 19:36:33 GMT -5
I love Tigra but I didn't understand why Shooter brought her in only to have her leave a few issues later because the enemies the Avengers fought were scary. Maybe he didn't like the character. I guess the charitable explanation is that he thought a super-hero out of her depth would be a new different sort of story. I recently read Avengers #231-254, and now I'm continuing on West Coast Avengers, so I'm getting to see the Tigra stories after Roger Stern brought her back into the fold. Stern made her a solid member of the team. Englehart is portraying her as having issues, but at least he gives an explanation. He has her cat nature and human nature at odds. Now that I've been reading a solid bunch of Tigra stories, she's a more interesting character than when I just read an odd issue here or there. I recently bought an omnibus (Women of Marvel) that has some of her earliest appearances, so I'm interested in seeing how Shooter and other later versions match up with the early portrayals of the character. If it has Marvel Premiere #42 in it, that's my favorite and the standard by which I measure other appearances. |
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Post by spoon on Jun 20, 2021 20:55:26 GMT -5
Maybe he didn't like the character. I guess the charitable explanation is that he thought a super-hero out of her depth would be a new different sort of story. I recently read Avengers #231-254, and now I'm continuing on West Coast Avengers, so I'm getting to see the Tigra stories after Roger Stern brought her back into the fold. Stern made her a solid member of the team. Englehart is portraying her as having issues, but at least he gives an explanation. He has her cat nature and human nature at odds. Now that I've been reading a solid bunch of Tigra stories, she's a more interesting character than when I just read an odd issue here or there. I recently bought an omnibus (Women of Marvel) that has some of her earliest appearances, so I'm interested in seeing how Shooter and other later versions match up with the early portrayals of the character. If it has Marvel Premiere #42 in it, that's my favorite and the standard by which I measure other appearances. It is included. |
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