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Post by mikelmidnight on Jun 15, 2021 11:26:20 GMT -5
The only time I remember reading the Squadron Supreme was in the Englehart/Perez Avengers, in Perez's first story-arc on the book. I don't recall any clues as to the nationality of any of the other members but IIRC the Golden Archer was definitely written as speaking with a British accent of some kind.
Right. I think the natural assumption was that the rest of them were American, and I sort of assumed Dr Spectrum was Kinji Obatu until told otherwise.
Gruenwald's story had its pros and cons that I don't need to get into here, but in this aspect I think he made the Squadron less diverse and interesting.
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Post by berkley on Jun 15, 2021 18:17:07 GMT -5
The only time I remember reading the Squadron Supreme was in the Englehart/Perez Avengers, in Perez's first story-arc on the book. I don't recall any clues as to the nationality of any of the other members but IIRC the Golden Archer was definitely written as speaking with a British accent of some kind.
Right. I think the natural assumption was that the rest of them were American, and I sort of assumed Dr Spectrum was Kinji Obatu until told otherwise.
Gruenwald's story had its pros and cons that I don't need to get into here, but in this aspect I think he made the Squadron less diverse and interesting.
I wasn't reading Marvel by the time Gruenwald really got going in terms of becoming a prominent writer for them and having an impact on various characters and series and the Marvel Universe in general; but everything I've learned about since has been a big negative for me - the most obvious example being his changes to The Eternals.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 15, 2021 21:48:28 GMT -5
Right. I think the natural assumption was that the rest of them were American, and I sort of assumed Dr Spectrum was Kinji Obatu until told otherwise.
Gruenwald's story had its pros and cons that I don't need to get into here, but in this aspect I think he made the Squadron less diverse and interesting.
I wasn't reading Marvel by the time Gruenwald really got going in terms of becoming a prominent writer for them and having an impact on various characters and series and the Marvel Universe in general; but everything I've learned about since has been a big negative for me - the most obvious example being his changes to The Eternals.
Eternals I'll grant; but, his Captain America was pretty good, for a very long time. The whole John Walker thing, Crossbones, bunch of great material and his Avengers stuff was decent. Squadron Supreme I have covered elsewhere; but, I thought he had a lot of good elements, but not with the same kind of depth that Alan Moore brought to the same idea or others. I also thought the art was a let down. His run on Quasar was fun and he wrote the whole run of DP7, which is generally considered to be the top end of the whole New Universe; plus, he co-wrote The Pitt and The Draft, when they decided to shutter the thing. Gru and Macchio, on Marvel two-in-One, is probably the best material of the series.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 17, 2021 17:00:59 GMT -5
Marvel Team-Up #42Spidey & The Vision (and Scarlet Witch) Creative Team: Bill Mantlo-writer, Sal Buscema-pencils, Mike Esposito-inks, Karen Mantlo-letters, Janice Cohen-colors, Marv Wolfman-editor Synopsis: The Scarlet witch was kidnapped by a time travelling Cotton Mather and taken to Salem, MA for trial and to be burnt at the stake (historically inaccurate, as covered last time). Spidey followed a hex bolt to find her and Vision is there, too. They have freed Wanda, but the crowd still wants a barbecue. Cotton Mather eggs them on but lets them do the dirty work. Someone claiming to be without sin tosses the first rock and gets Wanda's dander up, which doesn't help calm the situation.... Even Vision thinks Wanda is over-reacting. the mob attacks and Vision does his little materialization trick. Spidey holds back since he believes he can't change the history of the witch trials; but forgets that he wasn't part of that history, so why not? Never stopped Dr Who! Vision seems to be losing control and Spidey is distracted, trying to rein him in, when he is overwhelmed (it should take more than 4 dudes to knock out Spidey, per his own strength chart). Vision just turns diamond-hard and shrugs off attacks. Wanda hexes a hole under her attackers, but gets grazed by some buckshot from a blunderbuss. Vision goes ape@#$%.... ...but goes down to a spell from Mather....sorry, divine miracle from Mather. They get chained up in a cell, with some others accused of witchcraft, one of whom fills in Spidey. The man, John Proctor, fills Spidey in on the hysteria that gripped Salem, though the depiction draws more on Arthur Miller than direct history (more below). A minister, John Burroughs is accused and defies the court and recites the Lord's Prayer, openly, before the noose and the crowd calls for his release, until Cotton Mather intercedes and convinces them it is a trick and Burroughs is hanged. Proctor asks Spidey to pray with them , but he chooses to let the Lord help those who help themselves and breaks his chains. He frees Vision, but leaves Wanda in her chains (gotta sell comics), while Vision attends to her. he suckers the guard into coming in the cell, then does an Emma Peel on him... (Note that you can clearly see stunt double Cyd Child's face, as she turned slower then expected, due to the weight of the guard) The truss him up and John Proctor's wife tends to Wanda, while Vis and Spidey go after Mather. they spot a glow in the distance and follow it and end up in a Hammer film..... and thus we learn that Cotton Mather is an agent of another, the Dark Rider! Vis attacks and whoops Mather, then the rider unleashes a brown raven (messed that one up Janice? or did Mantlo not identify that he wanted a raven to her?) It gets big and messes with Spidey, until Vis zaps it and it reverts to original. Then Dr Doom turns up.... Thoughts: Okay, Spidey and Vision should be mopping the floor with the mob and Wanda seems rather powerless, to say the least. Yet another case of the powers being turned off by plot convenience, rather than a situation laid out in careful staging. Mantlo isn't alone in this; but, it's pretty egregious in this storyline. I guess we have to chalk it up to supernatural shenanigans from the Dark Rider, which illustrates why I hate supernatural stories; the powers are rarely "earned" and their defeat is rarely set up logically. More often than not the supernatural is unbeatable until they just stop working and the hero saves the day. The best stories of this ilk set up a weakness and a chain of events that lead to its discovery and exploitation, to achieve victory. The whole depiction of Salem's hysteria is lifted fairly directly from Arthur Miller's play, The Crucible (which used historical events and figures), rather than from history, which is pretty typical, when you think about it. Most people's perception of things comes from sources like this, rather than study of the real events. the same is true of many things as many people's concepts of Hell and the Devil, in the Judeo-Christian tradition, are more rooted in Dante and Milton than the actual biblical passages. So, two issues into this storyline and we still don't really know what is going on or how Cotton Mather got a time machine, let alone what appeared to be Dr Doom's time machine. Since Ol' Rustbucket turned up at the end, I suspect he is wondering the same thing. Maybe we will get an answer next time. This isn't terrible; but, I'm pretty "meh" on this storyline, as much for the supernatural angle as the lack of answers or motivation. Not even particularly cool visuals, though, as I said last time, Sal's style works fairly well for pseudo-horror, with the over-dramatic poses and facial expressions. We'll have to see if Dr Doom can liven things up, next time.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 17, 2021 18:35:07 GMT -5
Marvel Two-in-One #42Ben & Captain America! Guess now we have to change the title from "Chaos is the Cosmic Cube," to "Trouble is the Tesseract." You know, if you are going to call it a tesseract, you should be able to see the cube suspended inside the cube, in most shots, not just once in a while! Just sayin'..... "What is the sinister secret of Project Pegasus?" Whoooooooooo boy! Creative Team: Ralph Macchio-writer and karateka, Sal Buscema-pencils & katas, Alcala & Sam Grainger-inks & sparring, Joe Rosen-calligraphy, Nel Yomtov-colors and koans, Jim Shooter-John Kreese (What; you didn't expect him to be Miyagi, did you?) Synopsis: One day, in upstate New York, Ben Grimm pays a friendly visit to a research facility, known as Project Pegasus. He is welcomed with open arms.... Kind of hard to tackle a rock monster with closed arms! The security flunkies are unable to stop Ben (They never are able to stop anyone from entering these places, are they?); so, Captain America, who just happens to be there, jumps into the fray. Ben ain't playin' and Cap's shield saves him from having his ribs jammed up into his brain. He turns matador to goad Ben into overreaching, while Ben starts growling about where Wundar is. Wundarr? Oh, yeah, forgot about him! So did every writer since Steve Gerber started this thing! (the comic, not Ben...Jack Kirby & Stan Lee started that Thing!) Cap recognizes what's crawled up Ben's backside and uses science (Science!) to whammy him with some kind of capture ray. He then scolds Ben for 20 minutes, then lets him out when he says "Sorry" and promises to play nice with the other superheroes. He shows Ben around, while ben pretends to play dumb rock monster, until Cap calls him out on having a better background in science (Science!) than Cap does. We are told that Pegasus was set up by the (then) new Dept of Energy, as a research facility to study alternative sources of energy. That's a hell of a lot of funding, for a new department, during a recession. NASA only got to put up Skylab because the money had already been allocated when they cut the Apollo Program short. As the look around, Ben recognizes Thomas Lightner, aka Blacksun, from issue #21. He remarks that Dr Don Blake cured his cellular decay and Cap says Lightner is a valuable lead researcher at the project. Ben still smells a rat (Cap is a bit of Pollyanna) and gives Lightner the stink eye and makes a note to watch him. He is then taken to where Wundarr will be and is horrified... Wundarr us being used to test the energy of the Cosmic Cube, which fell into SHIELD hands, after the defeat of Thanos (ummm.....Captain Marvel karate chopped it in pieces... ) Wundarr is brought in, all strapped up, but he bursts his bonds and runs away. Ben drops down from the theater balcony and reminds Wundarr of Uncle Benjy and the two embrace. SNIFF....'scuse me a minute..........AHEM........HONK!......had to blow my nose and wipe something out of my eye....... Ben calms Wundarr down and tells him he will be right there and that Wundarr will be okay and he'll get a lollipop afterward. Liar! My parents said the same kind of thing to me, right before the nurse returned and tried to turn my butt into a pincushion! Don't believe it Wundy; run!! Wundarr doesn't run and lets the bad men strap him into the machine and turn it on. Ben is feeling guilty and asks Cap for reassurances that he did the right thing. Cap, being a twit, says these men have Wundarr's safety at the top of their minds, and then some guy yanks a switch that causes a power surge into Wundarr. Ben flips him the bird as he runs to rescue Wundarr. Cap suspects sabotage and spots the culprit. he attacks and gets swatted away like he was Haley Mills physically, not just mentally (in character, not the real woman...she's pretty smart!) Ben rips Wundarr free of the machine and the saboteur nabs the Cube and disappears, while ranting about reshaping the world. While this goes on, some cultists are chanting, in the Everglades (probably Disney employees), in front of a vibrating skeleton. Into their midst appears a bright light, which coalesces into Victorius, leader of the Entropists, from Astonishing Tales and Giant Size Man Thing (BWA-HA-HA-HA....) #1. He was the dude who took the cube! Wundarr is wheeled out on a stretcher and Ben is stewing with guilt and rage. Cap says the suit Reed made for Wundy helped, but he is in bad shape. Ben is looking for someone to punch and decides to find Victorius. cap provides him with a plane and a Stark Energy Signature Tracker (trademark Stark International). Ben heads for it, but Cap says the ground crew is still running through the checklist. Ben ain't got time for no checklist and calls out chocks away. Cap gives up and climbs in and tells a mouthy ground crewman to stow it and Ben fires up the VTOL and takes off. they zip down to Florida and land in the Everglades. They use a portable tracker (about the size of a boom box) to guide them, until Victorius zaps it with the Cube and reveals himself and the Entropic Man. Thoughts: Geez, never thought I'd see Cap siding with guys wanting to run tests on a man-child! Lot of parallels to his origin, too, as a scientific test is sabotaged by an outside agent. Poor Ben has to watch as they stick it to Wundarr, after calming him down. Considering he came there to pull him out of there, Ben must be feeling lower than an ant reaching up to scratch a snake's belly! Cap ends up being a tool, as he was the one who was sure that Pegasus had Wundarr's best interests at heart. Cap is an old soldier, he should know better than anyone what it is like to be expendable in the eyes of higher authority. This is the debut of Project Pegasus, which will return, in a classic epic that earned it's own trade collection, long before most storylines got collected (1988). This is also part of why I am a bit disappointed in the visuals, as Ron Wilson would have livened up Pegasus a bit. Sal does the usual grand machinery; but Ron had already demonstrated, with the Nick Fury team-up and subsequent HYDRA in London business that he's got a flair for this sort of thing. The later Pegasus stands out even more, with John Byrne and George Perez handling things, in their techno-epic ways. This Pegasus complex seems a little on the generic side. My suspicion is that they hadn't come up with the idea of making it into the Wildfire complex, from The Andromeda Strain. Ralph is revisiting a lot of Gerber here, between Wundarr and the Entropists. Nice to see someone had an appreciation for what had come before (Ralph was a letterhack, before getting a writer gig). I haven't read GSMT (snicker) #1, so I have no idea if the skeleton in the Everglades is left over from that. It had me confused as to whether that was Victorius materializing, or if he was reduced to that, after touching the Cube, or if that was just the remains of someone waiting to ride Space Mountain (not in the Ric Flair sense, though). The US Department of Energy was created in 1977, under the carter Administration, to consolidate and redirect Federal energy-related agencies towards the problem of dwindling fossil fuels and dependence on foreign oil, as highlighted by the OPEC Oil Embargo and subsequent Energy Crises. Under the Carter Administration, focus was given on renewable alternative energy sources and much funding was filtered into projects related to solar, wind, tidal and geothermal energy research, as well as continuing nuclear energy programs. However, the Three Mile Island disaster highlighted the dangers of nuclear power. The Carter Administration was able to use the new legal authority of the department to intervene in the Three Mile Island crisis (though the existing Nuclear Regulatory Commission oversaw the Nuclear Industry). Much talk was given to alternative energy during the Carter years. However, with Carter's defeat in the 1980 Presidential Election, much of that focus went away, under the Reagan Administration. With the influence of Vice President George HW Bush and other cabinet members with ties to Big Oil, the government focus switched to oil exploration and much Federal funding dried up for alternative energy programs. Skyrocketing gas prices, in the wake of 9/11 and the War on terror revived much of the focus. The conceit here, and in subsequent Marvel comics, is that Pegasus is the Marvel energy research agency and it provides a handy super-villain prison, to contain energy-based bad guys, on the pretext of studying their abilities for potential breakthroughs. In other words, they are captive guinea pigs, which makes the superheroes the SS, rounding these guys up for concentration camps, if you think about it too hard. This isn't that fictional, given that medical experiments have been conducted on prisoners, both voluntary and involuntary, as well as members of the military. Like I say, the Holocaust connection isn't too far in the extreme, depending on how you write the story. Macchio has laid the seeds of the chaos that will consume Pegasus, about a year down the line. Pretty early foreshadowing, though I think that is more down to Macchio not being the permanent writer on the book. There will be a bit of musical chairs with the creative team, for a bit, until Macchio returns, working with Mark Gruenwald (after Macchio finishes this story, next issue).
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Post by chaykinstevens on Jun 18, 2021 10:03:06 GMT -5
Alacatena & Sam Grainger-inks & sparring I think you mean Alfredo Alcala.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 18, 2021 11:01:32 GMT -5
Alacatena & Sam Grainger-inks & sparring I think you mean Alfredo Alcala. Dammit! Yeah; been going through the 4Winds graphic novels and mixed them up.
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Post by berkley on Jun 18, 2021 11:35:25 GMT -5
Sal Buscema's art looks better to me in this Two-in-One Project Pegasus issue than in the Team-Up Cotton Mather, whether that's because of the inking or he just had more time I have no idea.
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Post by zaku on Jun 18, 2021 12:24:23 GMT -5
Thoughts: Okay, Spidey and Vision should be mopping the floor with the mob and Wanda seems rather powerless, to say the least. Well, for me, it made at least a modicum of sense. I mean, wasn't Spidey in the 70s just little more than a regular guy with sticky hands and web shooters? I mean, he got his ass regularly beat by common criminals and similar.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 18, 2021 22:02:55 GMT -5
Thoughts: Okay, Spidey and Vision should be mopping the floor with the mob and Wanda seems rather powerless, to say the least. Well, for me, it made at least a modicum of sense. I mean, wasn't Spidey in the 70s just little more than a regular guy with sticky hands and web shooters? I mean, he got his ass regularly beat by common criminals and similar. That's kind of what I mean. Ditko did the whole Spidey chucking a ton of rubble off himself, with a big effort. Other times, he's do similar things, then he's getting knocked for a loop by a bank robber. Rhino or Scorpion, maybe; but he shouldn't be having issues with normals and all of the Salem people, apart from Mather, are shown to be ordinary. Now, if Mantlo had written in about Spidey being surprised by the strength of the crowd and smelling a rat, I'd concede the point more; but, he doesn't. Mantlo could be pretty sloppy in the details, particularly in these days. That's what an editor is supposed to do, make them rethink the weaknesses and redraft and improve the story; but, we all know the editorial chaos that went on after Roy stepped down. One editor could not handle everything and the writer-editors were their own worst enemy, more often than not. It came later (1981); but, Amazing Spider-Man Annual #15 had a strength comparison between Spidey and various characters. Note Spidey ranks himself with the Super-Mediumweights, including Luke Cage, Silver Surfer, Colossus, She-Hulk and Valkyrie. That's pure physical strength, not cosmic power, in the case of Surfer. I'd quibble a lot, about Ben Grimm being placed in the Heavyweight and not Super-Heavyweight, since he has repeatedly gone toe-to-toe with the Hulk. This is bad booking on the part of Mark Gruenwald, in my opinion. I'd also put Colossus in with the Heavyweights and probably She-Hulk and Surfer, though Surfer's strength is a factor of his cosmic power. Also, Iron Man is contingent on a powerful enough energy source. There would have to be an overload point, so I think that is an iffy one, too. I know there were letter page arguments over it for some time, in other comics and I think, too, when OHOTMU came out (that and the go-to for unexplained energy powers of drawing energy or mass, in the case of the Hulk, from other dimensions).
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Post by berkley on Jun 18, 2021 22:58:43 GMT -5
Not that I need any more reasons to dislike Gruenwald's work, but I see he has nearly every single female character complaining about their ranking.
Also, no women in the top class - but that was probably Marvel's fault, not Gruenwald's. I assume this has been rememdied by now and there are a few female MU characters who would be ranked with Thor, Hulk, etc, whether they're new creations or long-standing ones that have been upgraded?
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 19, 2021 7:03:34 GMT -5
Marvel tended to ignore this anyway and power was always dictated by plot convenience, anyway. Cap has been ridiculously upgraded, like freefalling from airplanes and such. How does being at the peak of human physical ability allow you to survive slamming into the earth at high velocity? Ultimates raised it to stupid levels, with Cap punching it out with the Hulk. One of many massive problems I had with that series and Millar.
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Post by zaku on Jun 19, 2021 7:32:22 GMT -5
Well, for me, it made at least a modicum of sense. I mean, wasn't Spidey in the 70s just little more than a regular guy with sticky hands and web shooters? I mean, he got his ass regularly beat by common criminals and similar. That's kind of what I mean. Ditko did the whole Spidey chucking a ton of rubble off himself, with a big effort. Other times, he's do similar things, then he's getting knocked for a loop by a bank robber. Rhino or Scorpion, maybe; but he shouldn't be having issues with normals and all of the Salem people, apart from Mather, are shown to be ordinary. Now, if Mantlo had written in about Spidey being surprised by the strength of the crowd and smelling a rat, I'd concede the point more; but, he doesn't. Mantlo could be pretty sloppy in the details, particularly in these days. That's what an editor is supposed to do, make them rethink the weaknesses and redraft and improve the story; but, we all know the editorial chaos that went on after Roy stepped down. One editor could not handle everything and the writer-editors were their own worst enemy, more often than not. I mean, in the 1963 he was able to hold his own against the Fantastic Four. And then 10 years later he is continually humiliated by this dude, a normal powerless person whose pointy shoes shouldn't even allow him to walk.
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Post by mikelmidnight on Jun 21, 2021 11:47:45 GMT -5
Geez, never thought I'd see Cap siding with guys wanting to run tests on a man-child! Lot of parallels to his origin, too, as a scientific test is sabotaged by an outside agent. Poor Ben has to watch as they stick it to Wundarr, after calming him down. Considering he came there to pull him out of there, Ben must be feeling lower than an ant reaching up to scratch a snake's belly! Cap ends up being a tool, as he was the one who was sure that Pegasus had Wundarr's best interests at heart. Cap is an old soldier, he should know better than anyone what it is like to be expendable in the eyes of higher authority.
I read this as a kid and it really bothered me that Cap and Ben were essentially facilitating child abuse.
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Post by tarkintino on Jun 21, 2021 14:59:42 GMT -5
That's kind of what I mean. Ditko did the whole Spidey chucking a ton of rubble off himself, with a big effort. Other times, he's do similar things, then he's getting knocked for a loop by a bank robber. Rhino or Scorpion, maybe; but he shouldn't be having issues with normals and all of the Salem people, apart from Mather, are shown to be ordinary. Now, if Mantlo had written in about Spidey being surprised by the strength of the crowd and smelling a rat, I'd concede the point more; but, he doesn't. Mantlo could be pretty sloppy in the details, particularly in these days. That's what an editor is supposed to do, make them rethink the weaknesses and redraft and improve the story; but, we all know the editorial chaos that went on after Roy stepped down. One editor could not handle everything and the writer-editors were their own worst enemy, more often than not. I mean, in the 1963 he was able to hold his own against the Fantastic Four. And then 10 years later he is continually humiliated by this dude, a normal powerless person whose pointy shoes shouldn't even allow him to walk. That's one example, but 70s Spider-Man fought all manner of enhanced or super-powered enemies, such as the Green Goblin (Norman, that is, who was enhanced), Morbius (super-powered with additonal quasi-supernatural abilities), the Man-Monster (aka Smasher), Doctor Octopus, Man-Wolf, Sandman, the Molten Man, and the Hulk, to name a few. So, there's no drop-off in who he's able to handle between the 60s ad 70s.
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