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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 11, 2021 17:14:25 GMT -5
Marvel Team-Up #51Spidey & Iron Man! Still! Creative Team: Bill Mantlo-story, Sal Buscema-pencils, Mike Esposito-inks, Irv Watanabe-letters, Janice Cohen-colors, Archie Goodwin-editor Synopsis: Phillip & Brian DeWolff have been brought to court, with the jamming helmet in place, to block Phillip's control of Brian and his mental powers. There is a closed-circuit link-up top Matt Murdock and J Jonah is in the court, with photographer Peter Parker, collecting human misery for a "story." Even Petey has enough of it and tells J Jonah to take the damn photos himself; he's done with it. Meanwhile, Phillip seems to be up to something else. The jammer blocks alpha waves, but not delta and DeWolff takes over the mind of a SHIELD technician and has him unplug the jammer helmet. He thinks he is being sneaky, but Jean notices her brother move and alerts Dr Strange who notices the device is unplugged. Phillip assumes control of Brian and unleashes his power... Brian steps on the power cord and gets a feedback, sending his mental energy into his father. He goes nuts and unleashes the power. Spidey sucker punches Brian, but gets thrown off. Nick Fury is watching, via the link-up and wants to know what the sam hill is going on. Spidey blinds Phillip with webbing and Iron Man backhands him into unconsciousness. However, Brian is still moving and it turns out that Phillip's mind inhabits Brian's body. It goes all pear shaped and Spidey and the gang end up fight an animated floor. On the other end of the monitor, Fury just sees the heroes swatting at air, since it is all in their heads. Iron Man dukes it out with Brian's body and his mind gets assaulted and his heart becomes stressed. Dr Strange hits the floor with a spell and banishes the illusion and IM knocks out the Wraith. Dr Strange has to conduct psychic surgery and is debunked by the Amazing Randi. No, that's not right...he removes a bullet lodged in his head, which is obstructing neural pathways and Brian's mind is restored, free of his father's influence. This is followed by legal maneuvering about whether mind control is real, with Prof Charles Xavier and Moondragon testifying. In the end, the court rules that Brian was influenced by his father and is declared innocent of charges, while Phillip is found guilty. It all happens with what appears to be a judicial panel and not trial by jury. No idea about the accuracy of that, in 1976 New York. Mantlo did go on to become a pubic defender; so, he must have had some study of law, by this point. Thoughts: Kind of anti-climactic and repetitive. Should have just ended it last issue, had Dr Strange save Brian and move on to a new story. The last page shows one of the judges is telekinetic, as they say they had to legally ignore the existence of mental power but cover the moral ground, since mental power wasn't definitively proven, in the case. Just kind of makes the ending that much murkier and reaffirm that the coda was unnecessary. 3 issues were plenty. Brian DeWolff is restored, by end and goes off to catch up with his sister, which is nice. Next issue is one of Gerry Conway's brief interruptions, as he exerted his EIC status to take books away from people and do them himself. He crashes and burns and Mantlo comes back to deal with the Hulk.
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 11, 2021 19:12:14 GMT -5
Marvel Two-in-One #51Thing and Beast! And Ms Marvel! And Wonder Man! And Nick Fury! I smell a card game! Creative Team: Peter Gillis-writer, Frank Miller-pencils, Bob McLeod-inks, Tom Orzechowski-letters, Glynnis Wein-colors, Roger Stern-editor Synopsis: Ben Grimm is on the roof of Avengers Mansion, dealing with a twitchy robot sentry, who doesn't care if it is an emergency. ben finally uses his FF Elevator Beam Device on it and it opens a roof elevator for him. he meets up with Nick Fur, who tells him to get his rocky keister in gear, as they are late for.... ...the big card game! Cap and iron Man begged off, as they and Fury have been at odds. Elsewhere, at a SHIELD arsenal (Do they host wrestling matches, like National Guard armories?), some soldiers try to bluff their way in, get called and deal the sentry a Dead Man's hand. See, I can do poker references! The trucks spread nerve gas, then soldiers hit the ground, headed for their target. Miller can't draw a beret to save his life! Back at the game, Ms marvel wins the hand, with a full house (aces and a pair of queens), when Fury gets the alert of the attack. At eh arsenal, the assault team uses high tech to open a vault and some techs work on something, which launches into the air. The SHIELD Helicarrier gets a radar contact on an incoming bogey and Dum-Dum alerts Fury. He scrambles the Avengers and Ben and they take the Fantasti-car to intercept. When they arrive on station, they find a surprise... The invaders have reactivated the Yellow Claw's Sky Dragon flying fortress (from Strange Tales #166) and are using it to try to board the Helicarrier. The heroes swing into action and bust some heads... Inside the Helicarrier, the invaders have breached a secure stronghold and have taken the Ultimate Annihilator. It is General Pollock, who was behind the Avengers previous battle with Nuklo, and Fury gets the drop on him. Fury gets shot in the back and kicked in the head by Pollock and he and his men escape back to the Sky Dragon. Wonder Man tries to pursue and gets zapepd by electrical cables, but he is too powerful. the General gets onboard and tells his men to release grapples; but, they are interrupted... The General and his men are taken prisoner, after Fury proves to be alive, thanks to his bulletproof sportscoat (Fury isn't going to wear a vest!). They head back to Avengers Mansion to resume the game, but, everyone is passed out before Wonder Man can bring in the java. Thoughts: This was a lot of fun and a nice use of SHIELD, especially for the time period. SHIELD had been turned into a cheap stand-n for CIA shenanigans by 1970s marvel writers who read too many articles in the Washington Post and movies like 3 Days of the Condor. I liked it better when SHIELD was Marvel's UNCLE rip-off and fought super-terrorists. I do have to say their security sucks, as the enemy keeps invading their facilities; but, then again, Red Cell used to make a mockery of security at Naval installations, when I was in the Navy (and we ran drills with them, for a week, including an afternoon, where they took over the building where I worked. The Navy rarely took it seriously and were made to look even more stupid for the attitude and they went so far as to trump up charges against Richard Marcinko, the commander of the unit, because he stepped on too many toes. he got the last laugh with a tell-all memoir and a series of rather bad technothrillers. Anyway, nice throwbacks to some of the Strange Tales SHIELD issues, as well as the Avengers own previous run in with Pollock and his mercenaries. Gillis does a decent job with the military stuff, even if Frank isn't exactly Joe Kubert, when it comes to soldiers. He gets the job done for this sort of thing. I laughed at the yellow and orange SHIELD security uniforms; but, Steranko established that in the Strange Tales days, even though it looked wonky (well, he had them orange, with yellow highlights, then had some troopers in yellow, with orange highlights, later). Subsequent Marvel artists kind of went back and forth with it. Clay Quartermain, who wore Orange in Strange Tales, kept it up when he was part of the Hulkbuster team, in the Hulk's series. Gabe Jones was switched between yellow and orange. Fury and Dum-Dum were always in the blue jumpsuits and thse were eventually standardized as SHIELD uniform, with colored equipment rigs signifying rank and/or specialty, by the 80s (as see in OHOTMU) I kind of miss that in the MCU. Not orange jumpsuits; but, SHIELD having slick uniforms. Maria Hill and a couple of others had something along those lines, but SHIELD soldiers were in basic tac-team utilities. SHIELD should always look more advanced than the US Army. I bet they even have a high-tech, complicated version of the basic P-38 can opener! If Steranko designed it, it will be the size of a cuisinart. Miller is actually a surprisingly good choice for SHIELD stories. he would later draw What If? #28, where Matt Murdock becomes a SHIELD agent, instead of Daredevil. It was surprisingly good. Nothing major here; just a lot of fun.
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Post by badwolf on Aug 12, 2021 9:18:46 GMT -5
I just read that issue in the Frank Miller omnibus. I'm pretty sure one of my friends had the issue when we were kids. Oddly, the one thing I remembered from it was the bit where Ben insists Simon remove his shades, and then changes his mind. I used to misremember it being from MTIO #75, in which there is another poker game, until I reacquired that issue recently.
The art is very interesting. At some times it's recognizably Miller, others it's just...unique. It looks great! I wonder if he and McLeod ever teamed up any other time.
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Post by chaykinstevens on Aug 13, 2021 11:23:18 GMT -5
The art is very interesting. At some times it's recognizably Miller, others it's just...unique. It looks great! I wonder if he and McLeod ever teamed up any other time. McLeod also inked Miller on John Carter, Warlord of Mars #18 (Miller's first work for Marvel to be published) and the covers of Spectacular Spider-Man #46, Captain America #241 (with bitterly disappointing Springer/Marcos interiors), Marvel Team-Up #95, Avengers #193 and Daredevil #167.
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Post by badwolf on Aug 13, 2021 12:02:03 GMT -5
The art is very interesting. At some times it's recognizably Miller, others it's just...unique. It looks great! I wonder if he and McLeod ever teamed up any other time. McLeod also inked Miller on John Carter, Warlord of Mars #18 (Miller's first work for Marvel to be published) and the covers of Spectacular Spider-Man #46, Captain America #241 (with bitterly disappointing Springer/Marcos interiors), Marvel Team-Up #95, Avengers #193 and Daredevil #167. Ah, thanks! The John Carter issue doesn't quite have the same look, unfortunately (still looks fine though).
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Post by berkley on Aug 13, 2021 13:29:17 GMT -5
Normally I'd be tempted by the Miller artwork to get this issue, even though it doesnt look as good to me here as most of his work from around this time, but the presence of two of my least favourite costumes in the same comic - sometimes the same panel! - is enough to put me off: I'm talking about Wonder Man's safari jacket and Ms. Marvel's whatever you call that outfit she's wearing. I know that many people disagree with me on this but for me those are two of the worst superhero designs ever!
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Post by badwolf on Aug 13, 2021 15:23:51 GMT -5
What! Those are both of their best costumes!
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 21, 2021 17:38:29 GMT -5
Marvel Team-Up #52Spider-Man & Captain America! Monsieur, eat le foot! Creative Team: Gerry Conway-writer/editor, Sal Buscema-pencils, Mike Esposito-inks, Joe Rosen-letters, Don Warfield-colors, Archie Goodwin-cleaning up Gerry Conway's mess Synopsis: Spidey is swinging along when a monster steps out of a dimensional portal and the crowd goes wild... Spidey goes into attack mode and gets knocked through a fire hydrant. Then, out of the portal comes the Falcon and his ladyfriend, Texas Jack, a crowd of people; and, finally, Captain America. Sam is under the influence of other forces and Cap knocks him out with a karate chop. He takes him to SHIELD for psychiatric help. Spidey id left in a fog, as is anyone who hadn't been reading Kirby's Captain America. Meanwhile, Batroc is abusing The Help.... Zut alors! He spots the demon and decides it can help him commit big crimes. He goes to make friends with it. Spidey goes to the Bugle and changes into Peter's clothes, to pick up his hopefully repaired camera, after events in Peter Parker TSS-M #1, which we haven't read. Meanwhile, a SHIELD transport lands at a a private pad, near the pier for the ferry, which isn't the best location for a secure landing site. Wouldn't you know who won the pony? Batroc and Le Demon turn up and create 'avoc! The demon smashes things, while Batroc uses Not-Savate, as they try to steal a trans-uranium shipment. Captain America turns up and gets smashed by the demon, then Spidey turns up, after wasting our time at the Bugle. Batroc ignores the fact that savate uses punch and kick combinations and just blindly throws poorly balanced kicks, which would have him kicked out of any savate salon in Paris. cap continues battling the demon, as Spidey has trouble with a normal strength guy who uses Not-Savate. Then, they are back to back, with their foes coming at them, when they used that complex martial arts move..... the Duck....... Batroc is down for the count (of course he is) and the demon is glowing and staggers off. cap says the glow is dangerous and they follow, because it is dangerous. They wake up Batroc to confirm that the demon wasn't glowing before the attack on the SHIELD transport, then turn him over to the Boy Scouts, since they are more effective than SHIELD security. They go after the demon and find him tearing up the Staten Island Ferry, with no Iron Man to save everyone, so Spidey has to do it. With Cap's help. Spidey keeps it occupied, while Cap sabotages the engines to explode, to destroy the demon, out away from the city. it works, the boat goes boom, the demon goes bye-bye, and Cap & Spidey go for a swim. We end with pointless soap opera that no one who reads a team-up book gives two s#$%s about. Thoughts: Meh. Not terrible, not great. Mostly pointless. Conway spends as much time referencing the first issue of the new Peter Parker, The Spectacular Spider-Man, while pulling cap in from a Kirby adventure. Batroc continues to be ill-used and we mostly have a bunch of fight scenes, with little plot. Keep Conway on the Spidey solo stuff and as far away from MTU as possible, in my opinion. I seriously hate how Batroc was used at Marvel. He is a poorly rendered joke, whose background should make him a pretty deadly mercenary type. The MCU has done a far better job of it. Batroc is supposed to be an ex-Foreign Legion soldier. Officially, French citizens cannot serve in the Legion, except at the officer ranks, though it was quite common for French nationals to enlist in the Legion, using false nationalities (usually Belgian or Swiss). So, I'll give them that one, assuming Batroc claimed other nationality (or was a French Army officer seconded to the Legion, as was how officer ranks were filled). Despite stereotypes and jokes by bad comedians, the French Foreign Legion are some of the toughest soldiers in the world and a very effective fighting force. They are the equal of any military unit in the world and superior to a great many. That would make him a highly skilled and experienced soldier, as the Legion is used all over the globe, in everything from special operations missions to peacekeeping roles. That should be enough to make him a dangerous opponent. Make him even more badass is the fact that he is a master of savate. Savate is not "foot fighting", as has been perpetuated by writers and artists at Marvel, since Stan and Jack. It is a form of kick boxing that came to France, from Asia, via French sailors. It uses punch and kick combinations, which make it a very effective striking art. Savate also has numerous blocking techniques, which are used to set up counter-attacks. Also, in its earlier forms, savate was combined with Persian wrestling and was very deadly, indeed. One could assume that a savate master might have also trained in grappling, just in researching his art. Savate also includes weapons training, via canne de combat, a French form of stick fighting, using canes, fighting sticks and quarter staffs. So, in other words, Batroc should be a walking fighting machine, deadly unarmed and able to turn ordinary objects into lethal weapons and utilize edged weapons and firearms with great skill. Instead, he gets a Peppe Le Pew accent and has all of the martial arts skill of Jacques Clouseau. I know Ed Brubaker did some improving on that; but, it is a drop of water in the ocean. At least Georges St Pierre has helped elevate the character for the non-comic book audience. They still don't have him using much in the way of savate, in the films; but, it is a heck of a lot closer than the comics. if you want to see savate on screen, check out 2004's Arsene Lupin or the climax of Lethal Weapon 2 Lupin and his opponent demonstrate canne de combat and unarmed savate. Canne de combat was also taught to the gendarmes, to better utilize their truncheons in street combat and it was also utilized by criminals, since a cane made an unsuspecting weapon. The villain, Vorstedt, uses savate techniques when he attacks Riggs. Savate uses combinations and chambered kicks, to deliver great power in the blow. One of the best strikers seen in early UFC competition was Gerard Gordeau, a savate practitioner, who defeated his first opponent with a kick to the head that knocked a couple of teeth out (one was embedded in Gordeau's foot!), then finished him off with punches and kicks to the head. Georges St Pierre is not a savate practitioner (he is a French Canadian), as he studied Kyukushin karate, as well as Brazilian jiu-jitsu and boxing. He fought well in MMA competition and held the UFC Welterweight title, which is one of the toughest weight classes, traditionally, in organized MMA. However, the fight choreography in CA: The Winter Soldier and The Falcon and The Winter Soldier is mostly standard kick boxing mixed with wire-fu acrobatics. That is light years ahead of the comics, where he throws pro wrestling drop kicks and generic kicks and almost never utilizes his hands, in combat. In professional savate fights, you will see as many punches as kicks, and usually more punches, than kicks. Kicks are useless if your opponent is inside kicking range. That is the problem with fiction from people who have never been in a fight, sometimes, as they don't always write and illustrate a fight at the best levels. Good artists know how to pick out a few key moments and make your brain fill in the gaps. Sal Buscema isn't a bad artist, for fight scenes; but, he isn't one for depicting finesse or real stylized combat, like a Paul Gulacy or even a George Perez. Kirby had been in fights and even though he used Batroc for comedic effect, the techniques he drew were real, especially Cap. His Cap used Army hand-to-hand combat techniques, judo holds, wrestling holds, submissions and punched with authority, with some added gymnastic flair. Here endeth the rant. Mantlo is back, next issue and he brought the Hulk! And Woodgod! Oh, and John Byrne draws it!
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 21, 2021 18:31:28 GMT -5
Marvel Two-in-One #52Thing & Moon Knight! Would you believe that is a Perez cover? Sinnott really makes it look more generic (and I like Sinnott); but, Moon Knight does not look good there. You know you are in for an epic story when the villain is Crossfire! The man who got his butt kicked by a nearly deaf Hawkeye! But, that's in the future! Creative Team: Steven Grant-writer (Moon Knight wrote his own story?), Jim Craig-pencils, Pablo Marcos-inks, Rick Parker-letters, ben Sean-colors, Roger Stern-editor Synopsis: Ben Grimm is accepting an award for Reed Richards and Marc Spector is nearby, investigating rumors of a planned kidnapping. Some guy comes running up to Ben, asking for help, when he is shot from behind by some costumed goons. Ben doesn't take kindly to that and it becomes Clobberin' Time! Marc Spector also turns up, as Moon Knight... Ben was frozen in place, until Moon Knights interruption released the energy field. The pair beat the stuffing out of the goons and Moon Knight asks Ben what the dead guy whispered to him and Ben isn't talking, because he is tired of rookie heroes mooching his territory. The cops turn up and Moon Knight takes off, after Frenchie drops a ladder. ben deals with the cops and Moon Knight has Frenchie drop him on the street, after changing into Jake Lockley's duds and he reclaims his taxi, just as Ben comes out and hails a cab. Lockley collects the fare and takes Ben to Brooklyn, where he smashes his way into a warehouse. Moon Knight soon follows and fun is had by all.... Ain't that just like a day-goon; to bring a forklift to a monster fight! Ben declares Clobberin' Time and Jim Craig kind of loses it in the page layout... Crossfire appears on a monitor, then gasses the heroes. They wake up, chained, with Crossfire monologing on the monitor, proving he didn't need gas to bore them into submission... Moon Knight knows that Crossfire, aka William Cross, was a CIA man, expert in brainwashing techniques. He plans to rinse out Ben's head, then the rest of the FF, set them against the Avengers, to create chaos and get the government to clamp down the superheroes. He's got a sonic mind-warper, which looks a lot like Duran Duran's machine, in Barbarella... (WARNING: NSFW, Death By Orgasm, Extreme Camp!) Ben breaks free, Moon Knight slips free, and they go to town on the goons and then go after the master, who unleashes the sonic brainwasher. However, Moon Knight underwent anti-brainwashing training, in the CIA, as Marc Spector and he gets past the waves and stops Crossfire and Ben recovers and smashes the machine. Crossfire escapes and Ben goes looking for a cab and Moon Knight looks for a place to switch back to Lockley, to pick up a fare. Thoughts: Enh, it's okay. Not as good as the previous issue, better than MTU. Kind of a recycled plot. Moon Knight is handled okay, but the anti-brainwashing business is hooey. You can train to resist; but, no one resists torture and interrogation forever. that's the first thing they teach you. It's a matter of controlling what information you reveal and when. In the end, everyone breaks. Crossfire is a pretty piss-poor villain and he was even a lame adversary in the Hawkeye mini, though the overall storyline was pretty good. Next time, the beginning of an epic and the reason I started this thread!
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Post by badwolf on Aug 22, 2021 9:56:42 GMT -5
The art is pretty nice in the MTIO. Jim Craig's name is not unfamiliar to me, but not that familiar either.
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 22, 2021 12:30:44 GMT -5
The art is pretty nice in the MTIO. Jim Craig's name is not unfamiliar to me, but not that familiar either. Probably best known for his time on Master of Kung Fu, after Gulacy, but before Mike Zeck.
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Post by mikelmidnight on Aug 23, 2021 11:39:52 GMT -5
The Pepe Le Pew accent doesn't bother me - it might otherwise but by now I just consider it part of the character (when I wrote a fanfic set in France, I still wrote him with the accent and had another character criticise him for not speaking proper French). However, I agree that he has always had immense unrealised potential and well deserves a solo comic (at least a one-shot if nothing else). I did think populating "Batroc's Brigade" with costumed characters left over from MoKF was a reasonable move, aligning him properly with Marvel's martial arts community.
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 23, 2021 21:18:26 GMT -5
The Pepe Le Pew accent doesn't bother me - it might otherwise but by now I just consider it part of the character (when I wrote a fanfic set in France, I still wrote him with the accent and had another character criticise him for not speaking proper French). However, I agree that he has always had immense unrealised potential and well deserves a solo comic (at least a one-shot if nothing else). I did think populating "Batroc's Brigade" with costumed characters left over from MoKF was a reasonable move, aligning him properly with Marvel's martial arts community.
Yeah, I have no problem with that, just the comedic French bit. One of the problems you run into, in adventure fiction, comic & prose, is the author who doesn't know his subject, but throws it in for background detail. OHOTMU is rife with character histories that reflect an ignorance of the subject, either because the original story that mentioned that fact was wrong or whoever wrote the detail in OHOTMU thought it sounded cool. For instance, Nick Fury is listed as being trained in green and black beret special forces. There's no such thing. If they meant he was trained as a Ranger, in WW2, then just say that. The Rangers didn't wear berets until the 1980s and they were black (they wear sand colored ones now, since the Army appropriated black for everyone without special warfare qualifications). So, whoever came up with that didn't know the first thing about the military. Same with the Punisher, if you read his bio. I don't think anyone who has touched that character knows the first thing about the US Marines. Martial arts are a major area of ignorance among comic writers (Hollywood, too) and someone hears that the French have a martial art, called savate and that it involves kicks and suddenly every dangerous Frenchman is a savate master, yet no one knows how to depict that and they just kick randomly and never punch. A bio of Black Widow said she trained in savate; why? If she was trained in Russia, she would learn Russian martial arts, like sambo; but, if they incorporated a wide range of techniques, muay thai would be a better foundation than savate, for a female. However, they probably chose it because they thought it was all kicks and she trained in ballet, so...kicks. Funny enough, in the New Avengers tv series, Joanna Lumley's character, Purdey, used a fighting art that was styled on ballet and dance, with high kicks, for visual flair (though she delivered them so slowly as to be ridiculous). Better to do like the Destroyer series (aka Remo Williams) and just make up a martial art that was the granddaddy of the rest and incorporate whatever you want. Who can prove you wrong? For the average reader, it probably goes unnoticed; but, it is annoying when you have researched a subject and the writer obviously hasn't. Kind of makes me distrust anything they present as fact, even when it is within their field.
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Post by berkley on Aug 23, 2021 23:33:21 GMT -5
Perhaps one of our native French speakers can confirm or clarify this but I think they don't even get the stage-French accent right in some lines: for example "eem-becile!": the initial i-sound in imbecile doesn't really have an equivalent in English but I think it would be more like "ehm-becile" .
I like the idea of the Batroc character and yeah, it's too bad he was mostly played for laughs - though I think I read or heard something about a more recent, 2000s version that made him a more serious figure - making use of the very thing Codystarbuck piinted out, that super-powered crimfighters like Spider-Man and Captain America don't just wipe the floor with him in about 3 seconds. That a non-powered guy can give them a fight at all would probably mean he's just about as good as it's possible for a non-enhanced fighter to be, given the none-too-consistent premises of superhero comics.
To say Georges St-Pierre "did well" in MMA is quite an understatement, wouldn't you say? He was a dominant fighter in his weight class, considered the best pound-for-pound for many years, and is an icon in this admittedly young sport - young in terms of the modern-day version with the UFC starting in the early 19990s.
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 24, 2021 22:16:13 GMT -5
Perhaps one of our native French speakers can confirm or clarify this but I think they don't even get the stage-French accent right in some lines: for example "eem-becile!": the initial i-sound in imbecile doesn't really have an equivalent in English but I think it would be more like "ehm-becile" .
I like the idea of the Batroc character and yeah, it's too bad he was mostly played for laughs - though I think I read or heard something about a more recent, 2000s version that made him a more serious figure - making use of the very thing Codystarbuck piinted out, that super-powered crimfighters like Spider-Man and Captain America don't just wipe the floor with him in about 3 seconds. That a non-powered guy can give them a fight at all would probably mean he's just about as good as it's possible for a non-enhanced fighter to be, given the none-too-consistent premises of superhero comics.
To say Georges St-Pierre "did well" in MMA is quite an understatement, wouldn't you say? He was a dominant fighter in his weight class, considered the best pound-for-pound for many years, and is an icon in this admittedly young sport - young in terms of the modern-day version with the UFC starting in the early 19990s.
Well, he didn't submit Sammo Hung, which is my measuring stick....
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