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Post by impulse on Sept 24, 2020 16:36:19 GMT -5
Take with a pinch of salt and defer to any expert who knows, but my understanding was the costs of the paper and printing are pretty much the same, and that cover the cost of the comic. I thought it was the ads that made it up, and with dwindling viewers to view those ads, there is less money and that was the issue. I could have imagined that.
**edited** I meant to say that my understanding is that cover price doesn't fully cover the cost of the comics. They relied on ads to be profitable, and dwindling readership means not enough ad revenue to cover the cost of making it.
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Post by brutalis on Sept 24, 2020 17:08:05 GMT -5
Yeah, the pure cost of monthly issues is a bit easier for "adult" collector mentality to afford. Putting out cash weekly in being able to follow a series has become far more expensive. Parents would likely learn more towards Graphic Novel/TPB's as a singular better "buy" in most cases. Teens/teens who are predisposed towards sitting for hours to play through a video game providing a "complete" experience would also seem to be a strong target audience for TPB's. Being able to have a full storyline collected to be involved in seems more desirable than to "wait" issue after issue.
Speaking personally, when I was young and collecting it was a major pain missing out on issues in a storyline playing out over multiple issues. If TPB's had been a real option at the time I would rather been able to grab those up. That was part of the joy in picking up annuals every summer. They tended to be one and done adventures until the idea of crossovers for longer stories.
Jump to adult hood and MOST of my floppies sit in boxes unread as I will order Trades or Omnibus editions providing easier reads as stories are collected together. I have all but dropped monthly collecting from my buying habits. Partly based upon price and again how difficult it is when missing an issue that price jumps insanely because it is a "HOT" issue. Trade waiting makes more sense in affordability and having the story to read and enjoy.
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Post by Icctrombone on Sept 24, 2020 17:12:34 GMT -5
It's funny but I have no respect as a collector for TPB and Omnibus'. I just throw them in a pile and they end up getting damaged over time. I guess it's good for reading only but I really like the single issue format.
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Post by brutalis on Sept 24, 2020 17:55:04 GMT -5
It's funny but I have no respect as a collector for TPB and Omnibus'. I just throw them in a pile and they end up getting damaged over time. I guess it's good for reading only but I really like the single issue format. You must be the odd one out Icc. Most of us I believe prefer placing our Trades/Omnibus on a shelf. While I too like single issues and they are "easier" to handle for reading I have to say that much of the trade/omni I own have been bought solely based upon how much more expensive it would be for single issue purchasing.
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Post by Calidore on Sept 24, 2020 18:44:42 GMT -5
I just assumed cheaper paper/process was cheaper, but I have to confess to being mostly ignorant of today's production process. I can say that I don't like computer coloring as much just because it obscures the linework and makes too many artists look alike to my eyes.
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Post by Icctrombone on Sept 24, 2020 18:53:35 GMT -5
I have a book shelve in my attic and some are there but the majority of my tpb are in comic boxes.
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Post by brutalis on Sept 24, 2020 19:20:54 GMT -5
I just assumed cheaper paper/process was cheaper, but I have to confess to being mostly ignorant of today's production process. I can say that I don't like computer coloring as much just because it obscures the linework and makes too many artists look alike to my eyes. Computer coloring also has other flaws not bein considered. Colorists are going too dark without thinking how it looks when printed. Colorists go overboard trying to "improve" what the artist gives them. Unless the colorist works hand in hand with an artist they don't know the artists intent or thoughts. Many colorists also will obliterate a scene by making all the colors too similar or in the same palette which ends up ruining what is drawn and/or hiding artistic details. In ye olden days there was a limited color choice for printing. These days computers can allow for hundreds of shade/tones color choices. More is not always better in the case of choosing coloring to set a screen's emotional need. What may look "cool" on a computer screen does not always work the same when printed. And it feels like colorists want to be the "star" in a comic book and have forgotten that the coloring is iin service of the art and the art is not there to serve the color of the rainbow being utilized...
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Post by codystarbuck on Sept 24, 2020 21:52:46 GMT -5
Printing processes are a supply and demand kind of thing; with few clients wanting things on newsprint, fewer printing houses use equipment designed to print on it. It also factors into the reproduction of the material. So, with little demand for the material, few paper mills produce it, which makes it scarce, if you want to suddenly start printing on it.
Paper prices, in general, shot up with the desktop publishing revolution and it crossed over into the costs of printing and publishing. Book prices shot up in the 90s, which I witnessed, at Barnes & Noble. That, ultimately, led to a decline in the mass market paperback, as it was more cost effective to do smaller print runs on trade size books, rather than big runs on mass markets. Mass markets are pretty much only used for big selling fiction authors and genre fiction, with a long history of paperback buying patterns (mystery, sci-fi, romance and westerns). Juvenile books tend to fall in an intermediate size, until you get to the YA age group.
Looking at the coloring side of things; it isn't just comic book colorists. I work at a print shop/shipping retailer and we have a local university with a graphic design program. So, I see a lot of proofs for design students. So many of them have no clue about color formulas and that they have to gear their work to the system that will reproduce it. We use the CMYK color system, on our copiers and printers. There is also the RGB color model. That is used more for electronic display; but, what you see is the designer gearing things to the computer display and not the printed medium. Certain colors can fall on the outskirts of one particular color element (Cyan, Magenta, Yellow, or Black) which can cause the color to shift, when printed. I have seen dozens of students and amateurs come in a have us print something and say it didn't look like that on the computer. Of course not, it was reproduced there with a different color system and projected with light on a display screen. Even when they use the CMYK formula in composition, they are still looking at a light projection display (computer screen), rather then a light reflecting display (paper). Also, paper choices can affect the look, as gloss paper makes colors pop more, since they reflect more light. The trade off is that in bright direct lighting, they reflect too much light and the color becomes blurred. Matte paper gives a flatter look, but maintains it in brighter light. Thickness can affect how solid and rich the color looks. 20 lb copy paper and 60 lb cardstock reproduce images differently.
Book and magazine publishers have always understood this; but, traditionally, comic book publishers worked on the cheap to maximize their profits, since their price point was aimed at children's pocket money. That carried over into everything, including the pay rates for the people who created the stories, especially compared to other publishing. That was one of the things Jenette Kahn was fighting, when she became publisher at DC, having come from the childrens publishing world. Scholastic provided much better pay and incentives and got quality work. DC paid relatively low rates, offered no royalties and maintained full ownership; so there was no incentive to innovate. She was never able to fully implement what she wanted to do (corporations weren't much different than past owners, where you can keep exploiting people who won't fight back, as they have been numbed to it); but, the small inroads she made paid off handsomely, through the 1980s and at least the early 90s.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2020 22:00:51 GMT -5
People are also discussing this in the There I Said It About Comics thread here not sure if you want to merge the discussion somehow. -M
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Post by Icctrombone on Sept 25, 2020 4:31:39 GMT -5
It's funny but I have no respect as a collector for TPB and Omnibus'. I just throw them in a pile and they end up getting damaged over time. I guess it's good for reading only but I really like the single issue format. You must be the odd one out Icc. Most of us I believe prefer placing our Trades/Omnibus on a shelf. While I too like single issues and they are "easier" to handle for reading I have to say that much of the trade/omni I own have been bought solely based upon how much more expensive it would be for single issue purchasing. TPB's and Gn are made to carry around when traveling , so it lends itself to getting dinged up. I would never bag and board them. And yeah, that format is made to have expensive runs on the cheap. Even my treasury books are beat up. But that might be also because of the unconventional size.
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Post by Icctrombone on Sept 25, 2020 4:50:41 GMT -5
Printing processes are a supply and demand kind of thing; with few clients wanting things on newsprint, fewer printing houses use equipment designed to print on it. It also factors into the reproduction of the material. So, with little demand for the material, few paper mills produce it, which makes it scarce, if you want to suddenly start printing on it. Paper prices, in general, shot up with the desktop publishing revolution and it crossed over into the costs of printing and publishing. Book prices shot up in the 90s, which I witnessed, at Barnes & Noble. That, ultimately, led to a decline in the mass market paperback, as it was more cost effective to do smaller print runs on trade size books, rather than big runs on mass markets. Mass markets are pretty much only used for big selling fiction authors and genre fiction, with a long history of paperback buying patterns (mystery, sci-fi, romance and westerns). Juvenile books tend to fall in an intermediate size, until you get to the YA age group. Looking at the coloring side of things; it isn't just comic book colorists. I work at a print shop/shipping retailer and we have a local university with a graphic design program. So, I see a lot of proofs for design students. So many of them have no clue about color formulas and that they have to gear their work to the system that will reproduce it. We use the CMYK color system, on our copiers and printers. There is also the RGB color model. That is used more for electronic display; but, what you see is the designer gearing things to the computer display and not the printed medium. Certain colors can fall on the outskirts of one particular color element (Cyan, Magenta, Yellow, or Black) which can cause the color to shift, when printed. I have seen dozens of students and amateurs come in a have us print something and say it didn't look like that on the computer. Of course not, it was reproduced there with a different color system and projected with light on a display screen. Even when they use the CMYK formula in composition, they are still looking at a light projection display (computer screen), rather then a light reflecting display (paper). Also, paper choices can affect the look, as gloss paper makes colors pop more, since they reflect more light. The trade off is that in bright direct lighting, they reflect too much light and the color becomes blurred. Matte paper gives a flatter look, but maintains it in brighter light. Thickness can affect how solid and rich the color looks. 20 lb copy paper and 60 lb cardstock reproduce images differently. Book and magazine publishers have always understood this; but, traditionally, comic book publishers worked on the cheap to maximize their profits, since their price point was aimed at children's pocket money. That carried over into everything, including the pay rates for the people who created the stories, especially compared to other publishing. That was one of the things Jenette Kahn was fighting, when she became publisher at DC, having come from the childrens publishing world. Scholastic provided much better pay and incentives and got quality work. DC paid relatively low rates, offered no royalties and maintained full ownership; so there was no incentive to innovate. She was never able to fully implement what she wanted to do (corporations weren't much different than past owners, where you can keep exploiting people who won't fight back, as they have been numbed to it); but, the small inroads she made paid off handsomely, through the 1980s and at least the early 90s. This jumped out at me. The Image guys and a few editors started to fight the system back in the day by refusing to stay on the plantation and creating their own books with sole ownership. Maybe those moves have helped lead to the downfall of the big two. I don't know of anything that has been created by DC and Marvel over the last 20 years that wasn't a derivative of their existing characters . Not that the big 2 care, they just keep passing the company from corporation to corporation.
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,867
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Post by shaxper on Sept 25, 2020 5:42:53 GMT -5
People are also discussing this in the There I Said It About Comics thread here not sure if you want to merge the discussion somehow. -M Done! Thanks.
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Post by impulse on Sept 25, 2020 9:52:54 GMT -5
Yeah, I thought the whole point of TPBs and Omnibus was to read them. Collectors who obsess over condition quality tend to focus on the more "rare" monthly periodicals. The collected editions are more of a mass market bookstore production thing, sturdier quality to be banged around as you read them, placed on a bookshelf without fear of damaging spines and ruining collector value etc. Because they are relatively cheaper and easier to replace if they get banged up, you don't have to worry so much about meticulous handling, etc.
Also re: computer coloring, it really all depends on the colorist involved and the other production considerations others mentioned. I've seen computer colored comics that are breathtaking. I've seen others that are complete garbage. It was definitely really rough early on like most early 3D/CG graphics. Just didn't age well. Once technique and/or tech got to a certain point, it can look great.
Specifically early/middle Invincible by Image was stunning with Ryan Ottley drawing and I forget the name of the colorist. Just gorgeous superhero art. They changed colorists at same point, and while it was still good, I thought it lost a lot.
It's just really subjective.
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Post by codystarbuck on Sept 25, 2020 10:41:24 GMT -5
Printing processes are a supply and demand kind of thing; with few clients wanting things on newsprint, fewer printing houses use equipment designed to print on it. It also factors into the reproduction of the material. So, with little demand for the material, few paper mills produce it, which makes it scarce, if you want to suddenly start printing on it. Paper prices, in general, shot up with the desktop publishing revolution and it crossed over into the costs of printing and publishing. Book prices shot up in the 90s, which I witnessed, at Barnes & Noble. That, ultimately, led to a decline in the mass market paperback, as it was more cost effective to do smaller print runs on trade size books, rather than big runs on mass markets. Mass markets are pretty much only used for big selling fiction authors and genre fiction, with a long history of paperback buying patterns (mystery, sci-fi, romance and westerns). Juvenile books tend to fall in an intermediate size, until you get to the YA age group. Looking at the coloring side of things; it isn't just comic book colorists. I work at a print shop/shipping retailer and we have a local university with a graphic design program. So, I see a lot of proofs for design students. So many of them have no clue about color formulas and that they have to gear their work to the system that will reproduce it. We use the CMYK color system, on our copiers and printers. There is also the RGB color model. That is used more for electronic display; but, what you see is the designer gearing things to the computer display and not the printed medium. Certain colors can fall on the outskirts of one particular color element (Cyan, Magenta, Yellow, or Black) which can cause the color to shift, when printed. I have seen dozens of students and amateurs come in a have us print something and say it didn't look like that on the computer. Of course not, it was reproduced there with a different color system and projected with light on a display screen. Even when they use the CMYK formula in composition, they are still looking at a light projection display (computer screen), rather then a light reflecting display (paper). Also, paper choices can affect the look, as gloss paper makes colors pop more, since they reflect more light. The trade off is that in bright direct lighting, they reflect too much light and the color becomes blurred. Matte paper gives a flatter look, but maintains it in brighter light. Thickness can affect how solid and rich the color looks. 20 lb copy paper and 60 lb cardstock reproduce images differently. Book and magazine publishers have always understood this; but, traditionally, comic book publishers worked on the cheap to maximize their profits, since their price point was aimed at children's pocket money. That carried over into everything, including the pay rates for the people who created the stories, especially compared to other publishing. That was one of the things Jenette Kahn was fighting, when she became publisher at DC, having come from the childrens publishing world. Scholastic provided much better pay and incentives and got quality work. DC paid relatively low rates, offered no royalties and maintained full ownership; so there was no incentive to innovate. She was never able to fully implement what she wanted to do (corporations weren't much different than past owners, where you can keep exploiting people who won't fight back, as they have been numbed to it); but, the small inroads she made paid off handsomely, through the 1980s and at least the early 90s. This jumped out at me. The Image guys and a few editors started to fight the system back in the day by refusing to stay on the plantation and creating their own books with sole ownership. Maybe those moves have helped lead to the downfall of the big two. I don't know of anything that has been created by DC and Marvel over the last 20 years that wasn't a derivative of their existing characters . Not that the big 2 care, they just keep passing the company from corporation to corporation. For themselves, yes; but, not necessarily within their own studio system. One of the criticisms leveled against some of them was acting like traditional publishers in certain studios, after talk about co-ownership.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Oct 1, 2020 20:08:26 GMT -5
One thing I'd like to add that may not have been discussed before... today kids/teens.. up to people age 30 or so, cannot conceive of reading an ocassion issue of a series. I'm 45.. when I was a kid, you watched the TV that was on... shows were one-in-done, and had little, if any, ongoing plot.. you could watch in any order and miss stuff and it was no big deal.
Today, that's not an option.. starting with DVD sets and now with streaming, there's no situation where one would just pop in and watch an episode of a show to see if it's good.. you start at the beginning with the intent to watch it through to the end, and if you don't you likely never go back to it.
This effects comics too... my kids like superheroes and will read comics.. if they can read 'the whole thing'. That rules out Marvel and DC. When I suggest a great story, they say 'but that's not the beginning' and simply refuse it. Even stand alone stuff like DKR, it's still 'Batman', and if they can't read the whole thing of 'Batman' forget it.
I think not only to they need to do a complete reboot and write it trades, but they need new characters too. They can be VERY similar, use the tropes, but they have to be new, or kids won't read them.
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